Author Topic: Effects on ignition timing being advanced before 2000-2500 RPM?  (Read 570 times)

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Offline denward17

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On my '76 CB550K I've been wanting to check, but haven't gotten to it yet.  Waiting for a cooler day in the garage.

With timing light attached, I want to see at what RPM the ignition timing starts advancing.

If I had weak springs, it would start advancing before say 2000 RPM, or whatever the appropriate range is.

What symptoms would be exhibited if the timing advanced before it should, if any?

Offline scottly

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Re: Effects on ignition timing being advanced before 2000-2500 RPM?
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2024, 05:07:06 PM »
The advance starts around 1400 RPM, and is at full advance around 2400 RPM.
If the springs are too weak, it can cause an unstable idle, and if the advance is not returning to the F mark at idle, it can throw the timing setting off.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2024, 05:13:47 PM by scottly »
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Offline denward17

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Re: Effects on ignition timing being advanced before 2000-2500 RPM?
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2024, 05:34:55 PM »
The advance starts around 1400 RPM, and is at full advance around 2400 RPM.
If the springs are too weak, it can cause an unstable idle, and if the advance is not returning to the F mark at idle, it can throw the timing setting off.
Thanks Scottly, it currently idles well.  I need to check timing and make sure it returns to the F mark.

Have about 250 miles on it since I put it back together (top end rebuild) and haven't checked it since I first timed it.

The only thing I have noticed; Plugs are just a little darker than I like (rich).  Out on the road in 4th or 5th gear the bike runs good, going though the gears with 1/4 throttle or more it runs good.
Only time I feel a slight hesitation is coasting in 2nd gear (about 3k RPM) with very slight throttle, and then give it just a little more throttle I can feel the hesitation.

Offline scottly

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Re: Effects on ignition timing being advanced before 2000-2500 RPM?
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2024, 05:58:22 PM »
For the hesitation at small throttle openings, you might try adjusting the idle mixture screws??
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Offline denward17

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Re: Effects on ignition timing being advanced before 2000-2500 RPM?
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2024, 06:06:14 PM »
Yes, adjusting idle mixture screws about 1/8 turn out the last couple of rides, seems to help a little.

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Effects on ignition timing being advanced before 2000-2500 RPM?
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2024, 06:24:11 PM »
Wiait until the rings have a chanc e to “seat” before getting too worried about plug colour. My K6 only has 50 miles on it and still blows a bit on start up.

Offline Mark1976

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Re: Effects on ignition timing being advanced before 2000-2500 RPM?
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2024, 07:08:10 PM »
Yes, adjusting idle mixture screws about 1/8 turn out the last couple of rides, seems to help a little.
The mixture screws won't get rid of that flat spot entirely,  it may improve it slightly but that's about it. I know ya have kehin brass in it, but what are the needles. Is it there all the time (flat spot) or just after it comes up to operating temp....
   And to johns point, put some miles on it, i know its gotta be tough, what do I ride today the 550 or the 750, all these decisions.
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Offline denward17

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Re: Effects on ignition timing being advanced before 2000-2500 RPM?
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2024, 07:30:49 PM »
Yes, adjusting idle mixture screws about 1/8 turn out the last couple of rides, seems to help a little.
The mixture screws won't get rid of that flat spot entirely,  it may improve it slightly but that's about it. I know ya have kehin brass in it, but what are the needles. Is it there all the time (flat spot) or just after it comes up to operating temp....
   And to johns point, put some miles on it, i know its gotta be tough, what do I ride today the 550 or the 750, all these decisions.

Lol, yes I had that thought earlier this week about which one, then decided to ride both, about 20-25 miles on each.

I really don't know about the needles, I just cleaned them real good, they had no markings on them if I recall.  I've only noticed the flat spot when at operating temp.

Offline Mark1976

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Re: Effects on ignition timing being advanced before 2000-2500 RPM?
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2024, 08:17:38 PM »
   Well, your definitely a smidge rich, and not at all uncommon, yet it could be a number of things. When you pulled these apart they had aftermarket parts in it and the only thing we're not sure of is the needles. I know the mains and pilots and emulsion tubes are good, it's possible that the needles are aftermarket and causing the problem. Again not for sure but a good place to consider starting. You can back out the mixture screws at least a 1/2 turn maybe a 1/4 more after that and see what ya get (you'll know when you're too far out, it'll take forever to warm up and idle properly), make sure to recheck the sync, take it for a ride , but I'm pretty sure once it gets good and hot again your still going to have that stumble. It may be marginally better, the mixture screws only have so much affect. Let us know, when you have time..
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Offline dave500

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Re: Effects on ignition timing being advanced before 2000-2500 RPM?
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2024, 12:50:09 AM »
dont over think this advance stuff,,think of the system more as a retard unit that lets you start the motor easy,once under way and if your riding the bike as intended itll rarely be under full advance as you go along.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Effects on ignition timing being advanced before 2000-2500 RPM?
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2024, 03:33:14 AM »
dont over think this advance stuff,,think of the system more as a retard unit that lets you start the motor easy,once under way and if your riding the bike as intended itll rarely be under full advance as you go along.
This ^.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Effects on ignition timing being advanced before 2000-2500 RPM?
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2024, 03:41:21 AM »
@Mark1976. How can you say all this in reply #6 and #8. I mean: nothing of what you said seems to match my experience. For instance: my bike idles best with the airscrews turned out 3(!) turns out which is way too far to preserve a good driveability.
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Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Effects on ignition timing being advanced before 2000-2500 RPM?
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2024, 04:41:36 AM »
dont over think this advance stuff,,think of the system more as a retard unit that lets you start the motor easy,once under way and if your riding the bike as intended itll rarely be under full advance as you go along.

Brilliant! Never thought of it that way! A

Offline Mark1976

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Re: Effects on ignition timing being advanced before 2000-2500 RPM?
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2024, 05:04:28 AM »
@Mark1976. How can you say all this in reply #6 and #8. I mean: nothing of what you said seems to match my experience. For instance: my bike idles best with the airscrews turned out 3(!) turns out which is way too far to preserve a good driveability.
So we disagree, what can I say....
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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Effects on ignition timing being advanced before 2000-2500 RPM?
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2024, 03:27:06 PM »
As far as flat spots in throttle, hopefully you have read HondaMan's thoughts on how to address this and what is factoring into that equation. Impossible for carburetor on a bike to perform like a fuel injected bike... Pick your battles and consider the cost of chasing down some of these things in the grand scheme...time is your most precious resource, spend it wisely. Get it running well and recognize carburetors are tuned for certain atmospheric conditions... Get it close to where it needs to be for the season you are in and enjoy it.
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Effects on ignition timing being advanced before 2000-2500 RPM?
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2024, 02:18:43 AM »
After 44 years of owning a CB500, the only advice I can give, when you are 100% sure it's fuel related and your bike is stock, is: to interpret your #38 or #40 jets just like Honda has called them: slow jets and not 'idle' jets or whatever. Think auxiliary jets. Realise that these carbs lack acceleration jets. As a consequence the aircrews position does play a role in acceleration/driveability.
In the past I've had a wonderful idle, the engine purring like a kitten, but I wasn't satisfied with the driveability. Then I remembered what a Honda mec (who owned a CB500 himself), had told me: that these slow jets also play a role somewhat higher up. He was right. From the rpm where the bike didn't accelerate well, when I pulled the plugs, they were whitish. When I turned the airscrews in again to within the by Honda recommended position range, the idle was not as nice as before, but I was rewarded with a much better driveability and the flat spot was almost completely gone.
To some degree that flat spot cannot be cured at all. Has to do with the engine design: 4 cylinder, displacement, bore x stroke, rpm range etc. I have forgotten the exact details, but I haven't forgotten how, when these bikes were tested and reviewed in the 70s, some expert had commented on this phenomenon and had related it to the design characteristics I have mentioned above. I seem to remember the word was: oversquare.
Then... if you say 'flat spot', what exactly do you mean? If you want to accelerate from say low midrange rpm without shifting down, you will certainly experience what one could call a flat spot. But, if you accelerate from a standstill, revving in each gear to 7000rpm or more, there will be no flat spot. At least, there shouldn't be.
Here's my guess. Most older Americans ride their bike, the same way they were used to drive their cars of that period, the ones with ridiculously oversized engines: @ low rpm with plenty of torque, making childish gurgle-gurgle noises. How I dare say that?
Well, look where there is a lot of complaining about deficient charging systems designed by Honda. It's only here, not in the other fora, not in France, not in Germany, not in Italy. Realise how stupid the hidden presumption is. As if Honda did not know how to make an adequate charging system!
And exactly this has annoyed me for years now. If you want to profile yourself as an expert, it doesn't help you to praise Honda for this and for that. A much better strategy is to point at a 'shortcoming' and then come with a 'solution'. It works the same in advertisement: the advertiser says, or at least suggests, you have a problem and/or you are missing something. TATARATAA!! They have the solution. Isn't that wonderful?! It works the same in political speech. It won't help a candidate to praise what his predecessor has done and then promise he (the candidate) will continue the good work. Much better is to blame the predecessor for failings and if there aren't any, well, you can - just like in advertisement - make them up, in other words: lie and exaggerate in the process. Also good: point to 'them from over the border', those that have always been contributing to the economy and prosperity - and picture them as criminals and blame them for poisoning... but let me stop here. :)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2024, 08:07:36 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Effects on ignition timing being advanced before 2000-2500 RPM?
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2024, 04:32:42 AM »
Delta the dependable expert on everything, vote to exile Delta  to his perfect world
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline MauiK3

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Re: Effects on ignition timing being advanced before 2000-2500 RPM?
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2024, 07:43:05 AM »
We are having a nice weekend here on Maui, I hope everyone is enjoying theirs.
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