Author Topic: 400/4 Carb issue  (Read 2994 times)

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Offline MDW

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400/4 Carb issue
« on: July 28, 2024, 10:29:33 AM »
Here is the situation, if anyone can help. When I bought the bike, the carbs were leaking and the jets looked well used so I bought a refurb kit (jets, needles, floats, gaskets) from 4 into 1. I replaced the jets (they were main 80, pilot 38) with the refurb kit (they are main 75 pilot 40). Now, after the new parts were fitted, the bike starts well but doesn't hold idle and has a heavy rev-hang. I am not able to adjust the idle screw to get it to stabilize. I have set up the slides to have a 1/8th inch (3 mm) gap when they are fully closed. The plugs are sooty black so I guess it is running rich. The previous owner had fitted pod filters and I want to replace those with the original airbox/filter. I am about to take the carbs apart again and refit the  original parts. However, if I am correct the new jets are the standard size and should be the right ones for use with the original airbox in place. Any advice? Thanks!


Offline bryanj

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2024, 10:31:07 AM »
Refurb kits are rubish, get oe parts
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

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Offline Mark1976

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2024, 01:49:20 PM »
Here is the situation, if anyone can help. When I bought the bike, the carbs were leaking and the jets looked well used so I bought a refurb kit (jets, needles, floats, gaskets) from 4 into 1. I replaced the jets (they were main 80, pilot 38) with the refurb kit (they are main 75 pilot 40). Now, after the new parts were fitted, the bike starts well but doesn't hold idle and has a heavy rev-hang. I am not able to adjust the idle screw to get it to stabilize. I have set up the slides to have a 1/8th inch (3 mm) gap when they are fully closed. The plugs are sooty black so I guess it is running rich. The previous owner had fitted pod filters and I want to replace those with the original airbox/filter. I am about to take the carbs apart again and refit the  original parts. However, if I am correct the new jets are the standard size and should be the right ones for use with the original airbox in place. Any advice? Thanks!
   Lotta questions, but I digress. If you're able, post a pic or two, it really helps when trying to determine your starting point. If you can, obtain an airbox, if your bike is mechanically stock it will be so much easier to get back to a proper running state. Dump the 4into1 kit entirely (ok not entirely,  keep the needle and seat and bowl o-ring), and clean up what was in it and lets see what you have, spending time using (possibly reusing) aftermarket brass is an exercise in futility.
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Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2024, 02:14:10 PM »
I can send photos. What would be most helpful?

Offline Mark1976

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2024, 03:14:39 PM »
I can send photos. What would be most helpful?
The bike,
The carb rack,
The old and new brass, no just the old, we know the new is worthless.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2024, 03:26:22 PM »
Here is the situation, if anyone can help. When I bought the bike, the carbs were leaking and the jets looked well used so I bought a refurb kit (jets, needles, floats, gaskets) from 4 into 1. I replaced the jets (they were main 80, pilot 38) with the refurb kit (they are main 75 pilot 40). Now, after the new parts were fitted, the bike starts well but doesn't hold idle and has a heavy rev-hang. I am not able to adjust the idle screw to get it to stabilize. I have set up the slides to have a 1/8th inch (3 mm) gap when they are fully closed. The plugs are sooty black so I guess it is running rich. The previous owner had fitted pod filters and I want to replace those with the original airbox/filter. I am about to take the carbs apart again and refit the  original parts. However, if I am correct the new jets are the standard size and should be the right ones for use with the original airbox in place. Any advice? Thanks!



The old jets were the standard size: your new #40 jets are a whopping 5% fuel increase below 3500 RPM, so yep, it's running rich. Keep in mind the idle circuit in the 400F runs up to 3200 RPM, so it's dumping lots of extra fuel into the mix. A 2% increase is usually enough to push things in the low-RPM range over the cliff, so to speak. For the record: the 400F came with #78 mainjets. The 1975 version had #37 pilot jets, which changed to #40 sometime around 1976. With #37 pilots the airscrews were set at 2.0 turns out, with the #40 pilots this was more like 1.5-ish turns out. Both setups were slightly cold-blooded, so the fancy choke cable setup was supplied so as to create a high-idle-while-cold capability.

Use of the #75 mainjet is a good place to start while you try to adjust the 400F to the 21st-century fuels: they all run rich compared to the 1975 fuels, so lower octane will help keep things in trim once you have the right jets aboard again. The octane is only a hint (today) to how fast or slow the fuel burns: in the 1970s the higher octane simply burned slower than the lower octane. Today it's not quite that simple: all (USA) fuels burn slower to help ignite catalytic convertors faster by burning into the exhaust system on purpose (especially when cold), so there will be some tweaking with the smaller Fours to make things tip-top.

You can also benefit from using a bit of oil in the gas: about an ounce or two per tank is good (I've done this since the 1990s to mitigate the damage from outright acidic fuel blends, and ethanols). This helps because modern fuel is very 'dry' compared to when these bikes were designed: the oil will smooth out the low-speed engine response (up to 4k RPM in particular) and make the final jetting less critical and more flexible. The 1990s, when acidic MTBE fuels were forced down our bike's throats, the brass parts (jets, float valve seats) took a beating unless oil was added to the tank: yours probably didn't get that, and the jets, in particular, were damaged. This eroded the wetted surfaces of the jets (and the old float valve's seat) and caused the problems you started with: uneven mixing and too-rich mixes. I see it a LOT when folks send me their carbs for rebuilds. It made the inner metering holes non-smooth and slightly larger, and damaged their outer surfaces sometimes so much the numbers disappeared(!) from sight.

If your 4into1 kit came with emulsifier tubes (these hold the mainjets), check the sizes (and number) of the aeration holes in them: the upper ones (4 holes total) will be smaller than the lower ones. In many aftermarket carb kits these holes are both the wrong size and often also the wrong count. If these holes were the same sizes as the OEM emulsifiers, they need to be opened up slightly for today's ethanol-laced fuels: about 5% to 10% increase is about right (Example: the 750K1-K6 use 0.033" to 0.035" holes in the lower section OEM, but 0.0375" to 0.039" works much better now, reducing plug fouling and 'flat' throttle response at in-town engine speeds). This is needed because our fuels now need more air to burn fully (which is then consumed in the car's catalytic convertor to make it hot, and work right) without increasing carbon buildup on the sparkplugs.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2024, 06:27:29 PM »
Mark1976 - I have the carbs apart but will send post some photos tomorrow.

HondaMan - Thanks for the  detailed response and confirmation of the 1975 jet sizes. Based on on your comments I will:

 - Put back the original 38 pilot jet (and set the air screw to 2 turns out)
 - Keep the new main 75 jet (is the the original 80 jet likely to cause issues (it's an over 6% increase in fuel)?)
 - Use midgrade or regular octane gas (I have premium right now)
 - What oil do you recommend adding to the gas?
 - The 4into1 kit did come with emulsifier tubes but I haven't fitted them yet. I am not sure how I would increase the size of the holes to the sizes you recommend
 
Thanks again


Offline Ozzybud

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2024, 07:04:49 PM »
." I have set up the slides to have a 1/8th inch (3 mm) gap when they are fully closed"

1/8 on the fully closed stop is way too high.They should be almost fully closed so the idle screw can come into play.
The reason the idle is hanging high(because it is) and running rich
1976 Z50A PARAKEET YELLOW
1970 CT70  CANDY SAPPHIRE BLUE
1971 CT70H CANDY TOPAZ ORANGE
1972 CT70H CANDY EMERALD GREEN
1973 CL200 CANDY RIVIERA BLUE
1974 CB350F GLORY BLUE BLACK METALLIC
1973 CB350F FLAKE MATADOR RED
1975 CB360T LIGHT RUBY RED
1975 CB400F VARNISH BLUE
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1976 CB750F CANDY ANTARES RED

Offline Mark1976

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2024, 07:12:45 PM »
." I have set up the slides to have a 1/8th inch (3 mm) gap when they are fully closed"

1/8 on the fully closed stop is way too high.They should be almost fully closed so the idle screw can come into play.
The reason the idle is hanging high(because it is) and running rich
Hence, lets get a few pic's, we'll look at the adjusters and determine if anything that he has is even worth using. Pull out a needle from one of the slides and lets see if they're aftermarket as well. Maybe the original pieces are good, ya don't know till ya look.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2024, 09:46:41 AM »
Mark1976 - I have the carbs apart but will send post some photos tomorrow.

HondaMan - Thanks for the  detailed response and confirmation of the 1975 jet sizes. Based on on your comments I will:

 - Put back the original 38 pilot jet (and set the air screw to 2 turns out)
 - Keep the new main 75 jet (is the the original 80 jet likely to cause issues (it's an over 6% increase in fuel)?)
 - Use midgrade or regular octane gas (I have premium right now)
 - What oil do you recommend adding to the gas?
 - The 4into1 kit did come with emulsifier tubes but I haven't fitted them yet. I am not sure how I would increase the size of the holes to the sizes you recommend
 
Thanks again



I use the tiny drill sets (Amazon sells them - I hate Amazon, but they have them...) and a pin vise to hand-drill them. The drill sets are also handy for gaging the hole sizes because you can poke-and-test until you find the drill that won't fit thru the hole: the last one then was how big the hole is. ;)

Keep something in the back of your mind while working with these jets: if they are not genuine Keihin jets they are 99.9% sure to be sized per the manufacturer's specs, and not Honda/Keihin's specs. For example: Keyster makes jets that fit, but they run about 7% leaner than their number indicates: their #107 mainjet (for the CB750) flows fuel as a Keihin #100 mainjet does, all else being equal. This doesn't mean they can't be used: it just means you have to think in Mandarin-jet instead of Keihin-jet calibrations.

I bring this up because your new jets are very likely not Keihin brand.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2024, 05:50:43 AM »
Update: I took the carb apart again yesterday, put everything through the ultrasonic and cleaned out all the original Keihin jets/tubes etc. (I am guessing they are original as I read somewhere that Keihin stamp a start on to their products, which mine have. I have refitted the originals as they look (post-ultrasonic bath) serviceable. The attached photo lines up the original against the new jets (the original hadn't had their second ultrasonic session at that point). The emulsion/main jet tubes were very crusty and half the holes were blocked. Not sure that would make a difference to the rev-hang, not idling problem I have. I will reset the float height and bench sync the slides today. 

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2024, 06:28:32 AM »
If the emulsion holes get blocked, the mixture gets very 'wet' and un-aerated. This then makes residual fuel build up along the intake tract, which in turn causes the engine to not respond to throttle changes very well. So, when the throttle is blipped open, it wets the intake tubes, then when it is closed the wetness keeps feeding the beast. Since it then gets even more wetted, the engine stays revved.

The key is to get the mixture to be more normally aerated so the intake tract stays dry. This restores control to it all.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2024, 07:24:24 AM »
The emulsion holes were very much blocked but looked like they hadn't been cleaned in a very long time. I hope, from your description, the engine will now run better and not hang. Hope to confirm this either way in the next 48 hours! Thanks again for the helpful input. 

Offline Mark1976

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2024, 07:43:34 AM »
Better use new o-rings, what you have there is looks questionable. What is the pilot and main sizes that your reinstalling, didn't you say it has the individual filters on it. And do a clear tube test to confirm a uniform float height, otherwise you just setting yourself up to pull it apart again.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2024, 07:47:56 AM by Mark1976 »
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Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2024, 10:59:18 AM »
I used the o-rings that came with the new kit as they look identical to what was on the carb originally. Not sure what you mean by clear tube test. I set up the floats and ran petrol/gas into them on the bench and gas is coming out of all 4 overflows. This is a mystery as to why. I am sure I set up the carbs to the as per the workshop instructions of 21mm. Is it possible that the butterfly clip (not sure of their actual name) that sit on the main jet could be causing problems?

Offline denward17

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2024, 11:37:07 AM »
Either the float adjustment, the float needle jet is not sealing or every bowl has a crack in the overflow tubes.

Offline denward17

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2024, 11:41:55 AM »
Clear tube test is to identify exactly the fuel level, but using a clear tube such as:

https://www.z1enterprises.com/search?q=200-1041

This one fits my CB550, don't know if it will fit in the bottom of your float bowls in the drain screw location.

Search on clear tube test to determine how.

I bought 2 of the Z1 parts to check 2 of my carbs at once (since I have 2 fuel lines).

Pic of my clear tube test.....
« Last Edit: July 30, 2024, 11:52:00 AM by denward17 »

Offline Mark1976

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2024, 12:40:18 PM »
   Time invested now will save you a ton of frustration later... give 'em a rap with a mallet (easy) see if the seat and needle settles, if not keep looking, correct float height is essential. Attention to detail is the name of the game.
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Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2024, 12:41:28 PM »
I wondered about cracks in the overflow tubes. I did a visual and saw nothing. I took the bowls off and filled them with water and had no leaks. Could it be the main jet towers? They are quite corroded (photos below are not great but show the issue). Perhaps the main jet is not sealing properly, allowing gas to flow past? Thinking about how to test for that.

Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2024, 12:53:56 PM »
Denward17 - thanks for the link.
Mark1976 - I may have a bigger issue (see my last post). I tried knocking the bowls in the past but no luck. Will try again.


Offline denward17

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2024, 01:10:38 PM »
I guess it could also be the o-rings that seal the float needle.

I don't see how the main jet has any effect on a non-running carb leak though.

Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2024, 01:16:24 PM »
The float needle o-ring seems well bedded in. Is there a way to test the float needle itself? They all look fine, but I am running out of ideas for things to check!

Offline Mark1976

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2024, 01:38:43 PM »
   If ya have gas coming out the overflow it's either incorrect float height, needle and seat or possibly a cracked stand tube. So in that order recheck your float height (more than likely), check your needle and seat with the bowl off, it either seals or it doesn't. One cracked stand tube is not uncommon but 4 would be, so lets not go there.
I'm leaning on float height.
   As long as the main jet and the needle and seat presses in firmly into their respective locations and the o-ring isn't entirely exposed, you should be good. Those towers can sustain a good bit of corrosion. What condition are the main retainer clips in.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2024, 01:43:17 PM by Mark1976 »
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Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2024, 03:12:30 PM »
Retainers look to be in decent condition. On the float height, I followed the normal procedure and set them at 21mm. Not sure how I could have gotten that wrong, but how knows?

Offline Mark1976

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2024, 04:01:24 PM »
That's why ya clear tube 'em, no guess work, that's how you know.. It's just easier than putting them on and taking them out 10 or 15 times. Make or buy an adapter, piece of mind, it's right up there with sliced bread.
Start with the end in mind...