Author Topic: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms  (Read 710 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cado007

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
!978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms.
I bought this about a month ago.
I fully disassembled the carbs and cleaned. They are PD 46c carbs.
I have the stock jets and needle settings- new air filter stock airbox - stock exhaust.
I have done the 3000 mile tuneup.
It starts right up with choke and then I turn off choke- start riding and keep throttle up with wrist.
In about 4 minutes I turn the idle screw down as it usually is around 2k rpms.
It is fully warmed up a few minutes later and then I turn down the idle screw to about 1500 rpms and it stays there.
I am driving the whole time this is happening. If I turn it lower than 1500 sometimes 1600 rpms it will start knocking and sometimes eventually stall.
I have checked the tach with an electronic tach and it is pretty accurate. All 4 cylinders are firing and it pulls through all rpms and has no flat spots.
Should I just let it idle at 1500 rpms and call it a day. All 4 pipes feel like they have the same pressure coming ut of them. The plugs all look good. The mixture screws are all set a little different . I set them based on how the plugs looked. I also just reset the timing and re vacuum synced the carbs.
Could a weak advance spring cause this? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

Online bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,025
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2024, 10:40:22 AM »
Did you remove the pressed in idle jets
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline cado007

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2024, 10:47:45 AM »
Hi Bryan,
Yes I did.
I unracked the carbs- removed all jets and ultrasonic cleaned and put brass wire through all holes. I installed felts on the throttle shafts and new orings on intake and new intake boots. Today I attempted to remove pilot jets while carbs were on the bike but I did not want to damage them. Could not finagle them out. Any tricks to this? I have a KZ550 and those screw right out with a screwdriver. I wish these did. I don't mind taking the carbs off again- I was thinking  the pilot (idle ) jets  might be the culprit as well - but I was trying to avoid it if possible.

Online bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,025
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2024, 03:29:26 PM »
The only way i ever got them out was with vice grips, pulling and twisting at same time.
Havent done any for years as i wont work on pd carbs any more
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline cado007

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2024, 04:37:27 PM »
Hi Bryan,
I am with you - I am not a big fan of them either.
I ordered some new airbox rubbers from Paul Gabor. I believe the ones I have may have a small vacuum leak on the inside ones. Would that cause this issue? I guess I will remove carbs again - clean all jets and put new rubbers on. I have new ones on the intake manifold and new orings on the intake. We will see. thanks for the advice!

Online bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,025
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2024, 05:05:58 PM »
I dont think small holes on the airfilterside would cause this but inwould check the basic bench sync to start.
I know i cleaned a set years ago then left the bike for only 3 to 4 weeks and had to strip and clean them again
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,851
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2024, 06:19:03 PM »
Have you checked the spark timing using a strobe light?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline grcamna2

  • Not a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,147
  • I love to restore & travel. Keep'em Going Strong !
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2024, 11:55:07 PM »
Finish with synchronizing the 4 carb. slides.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2024, 09:42:33 AM by grcamna2 »
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,016
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2024, 01:20:51 AM »
what hondaman said,check 1/4 and 2/3 with timing light,get your ignition squared away first every time!then #$%* around with carbs,especially those pd mothers!

Offline cado007

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2024, 07:45:35 AM »
video

Offline cado007

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2024, 07:57:36 AM »
Thanks everyone!  I tried to upload another video of it knocking but i am having difficulties. Yes I set it static and dynamic. I set it dynamic in the 1500 to 200 rpm range it changed at higher rpms.
It seems like my advance spring may have issues. My timing light is a cheap harbor freight one. It is taped to zero. I burned the cord of my craftsman on the muffler so its Kaput. Hondaman I am a HUGE fan! I am interested in your  ignition system and have a few friends that have it and lover it! I have been reading all your awesome articles. I have replaced the coils - points ( common motor points) - condensers- plugs ( plugs look good. Air screws are 1.3 turns out. new stock air filter. I ride it on Sundays through the hills of clermont fl ( yes there are hills). Its 100 miles and i have done it 3 times since I had the bike but I am tired of idling so high or stalling at stop lights. Otherwise it pulls good all through gears. Thanks for this great forum and all the great advice - I think I am close

 Damon

Offline cado007

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2024, 09:25:10 AM »
knocking

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,851
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2024, 09:55:21 AM »
By chance, do you see a tiny "TEC" stamped on the mounting tabs of the condensors?
If not, do you have your old condensors, and are they TEC or Hitachi, or DENSO marked?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline cado007

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2024, 10:14:13 AM »
Hi Hondaman - I did not see any markings on the tabs. or the body of the condensers. They are brass - goldish color- I don't think they are daichi.
I just bought this bike a month ago. and these were the condensers that were on it. The PO had a box of parts he gave me-  so initially i put the "new condensers" (daichi) on it which resulted on misfires on all cylinders after about 50 miles and I limped home the last 10 miles, so I put the original ones back on and no more flames and misfires. I could not find any TEC condensers online - I do have  2 new common motor condensers - should i try them or keep looking for Hitachi or Denso? When I got the bike, it ran - not well- typical shaft seal leaks - carbs were filthy on outside - not bad on inside. So I am just trying to do my due diligence to get it working reliably. I have  new orings on intake - new rubbers on intake - I can ride it - I just have to keep the idle hi and it does fine - but that is not how it should be.  Thanks for all the help!
Damon

Offline cado007

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2024, 10:33:38 AM »
video3

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,851
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2024, 11:42:29 AM »
OK, it sounds like the condensors are at least not bad? The bad ones break down in 1-50 miles, acting just like you've described when they do. REALLY annoying... I don't have any experience [yet] with the Common Motor condensors, so I can't say whether they are good, bad, or ugly, but if they don't cause misfire they are way ahead of the Daiichi versions.

Here's what's key to understanding the sometimes-tense relationship between the too-soft spark advancer springs and modern gasolines: these engines were set up with the quickest-practical (in Honda's eyes) spark advance for use with 1970s premium grade fuels so as to stop the "sudden on-off throttle" action that the 750 is/was famous for having. The long intake runners from the carbs allow a gentler slowdown when the throttle is closed, while the [too] soft spark advancer springs hang "out there" a bit longer to help burn off the residual fuel of the long intake runners and slow-burning premium gas. This also made the engine run cooler (but the exhaust hotter, hence their short lives) so Honda had to use the hotter D7E sparkplugs to burn stuff away.

Enter EPA and its manipulations of our gasolines (and skipping over the 50 years of BS this has caused...) and today our regular grade gas burns even slower than 1970s premium did, so as to help light off catalytic convertors in cars, among other things. For cars, this takes a full-blown computer to track temperature vs. spark advance. All we have to work with is: springs. So, what to do (and 'why')?

Slowing down the spark advancer's advance rate while making it return to idle (5 degrees) quicker to help reduce the 'smoothing' that Honda did with the old gas will help return the engine response toward normal now. Trouble is, it's a laborious process: good part is: it only has to be done one time to make the 500/550 long intake runners stop making the engine so slow to respond.

I do it by trimming back the advancer springs. This process will be going into the next book, too, because it is needed for the 500, 550, 350F and even the 400F engines (and probably the 250F, but I don't get to work on those very often and haven't tried it there). The mighty 750 suffers from it, too, although not quite as much because its intake runner length is half that of these smaller bikes.

To start: notice how loose the advancer cam is at idle: it almost can't return to idle when you twist it by hand and let it go. I cut off one full turn from one of the springs as a starting point: you could also cut 1/2 turn off each one for the same result. It will help it return to the "F" marks more easily, but it likely won't stop all the after-running that is being caused by the long intake runners. On very low-mileage bikes, this is [barely] enough to settle them down: in the 550K3/F2 or higher-mileage [earlier] 500/550 engines, not so much. These later bikes have Honda's first 'smog-controlled' carbs on them, and they run richer - if more tightly "controlled" [sic] by having a non-removable jet - at idle, leaner during acceleration, and normal above 4500 RPM (due to the way the US DOT wrote the smog-permit laws in the 1970s). This makes these bikes sluggish on acceleration because the engine is spitting back its too-lean, didn't-light-off-yet fuel from the last intake stroke, which then wetted the intake valve's face with unburned fuel, and the next intake stroke got it wet enough to burn, so...it finally fired, and the cycle restarts. Honda could only reduce this by delaying the intake valve's opening (like they did on the 750F2/K7 engines) to 0 degrees, which helped dry the intake valve and reduce this activity, which in turn reduced unburned hydrocarbons...which got the DOT off Honda's back. This info usually DID NOT make it into the Shop Manuals, though: most of them I have seen show no changes to the cam intake specs, but the cams do.

So, after all the mess, what Honda DID NOT do was: spend extra on getting better-tensile springs in the advancers, because they were still trying to make a Yen or two on the bikes. After about 8k miles these springs anneal and start to soften: in the earlier bikes the wetness of the earlier carbs turned this into a smooth coasting action: in the smog-controlled versions the deceleration lean gap between 3500 and 1800 RPM became a trash-collector of
([whatever gas was left]+[the next intake stroke] = no burn this time around)
which will stay rich until the springs retract the spark advance angle enough to slow the burn rate and let the piston speed drop, so it will stop sucking on the carbs.

So, in the 1976/1977 versions of the 550, I always start with 1.5 spring coils cut off: 1 on one side and 0.5 on the other. It usually ends up being more than that before the engine responds and acts normally. On the earlier engines with more mileage, the situation is very similar with the springs, which makes the engine sputter-fire enough during deceleration to make the Hy-Vo primary chain 'wave' a little, which then causes it's slack to hit the upper side of the engine case, making that rattling noise...it's all connected to the spark advancer. ;)

See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline cado007

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2024, 12:03:01 PM »
So Cut the part that goes into the hole about this much as in pic and reshape spring so it will go back into hole, I think advancer is definitely
affecting it - if you look at the video the advancer does not really go in a circle more of an elliptical - ( maybe that's how it is supposed to - I am new at this)
Bike has 21000 miles on it supposedly. Thanks

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,851
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2024, 01:27:35 PM »
That's the right idea and approach: a little at a time. Painful...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Duanob

  • Bold Timer
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,009
  • Gotcha!
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2024, 09:59:35 AM »
Finish with synchronizing the 4 carb. slides.

That's what I was thinking. I've heard my engine knock horribly until the carbs were synced, then smooth as a sewing machine.
"Just because you flush a boatload of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Stepfather the Unknown Poet

1974 CB360T
1976 CB550K2 Resurrected
1976 CB550F2 Barn Find
1979 CX500 VG "HONDA-GUZZI"
2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750ie
2015 BMW F700GS
Another 1976 CB550K Cafe?

  __o
_- \_<,
(*) /' (*)

Offline rotortiller

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 850
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2024, 06:36:08 PM »
Quote
Finish with synchronizing the 4 carb. slides.

That's the first thing I would have set after a tune up failed to produce results.

Offline grcamna2

  • Not a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,147
  • I love to restore & travel. Keep'em Going Strong !
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2024, 08:57:34 PM »
Uh, yeah..  ::)
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline Stev-o

  • Ain't no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 34,324
  • Central Texas
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2024, 07:45:02 AM »
May be a combo of things but def needs to be sync'd after the timing is set and confirmed.

Do you have sync gauges?
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline WaxhawFive

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 88
  • 1975 CB550F Super Sport
Re: !978 Honda CB 550k. won't idle without knocking under 1500 rpms
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2024, 11:11:50 AM »
Sync cured my knocking. 
1975 CB550F Super Sport