Author Topic: CB650 CDI Ignition System explained  (Read 657 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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CB650 CDI Ignition System explained
« on: August 31, 2024, 10:56:07 AM »
For the non-electronics engineer, here is an explanation of how the CB650 CDI works.

Take a look at the Honda shop manual, section 17, page 200 for the schematic of the amplifiers (which are also used on several other branded bikes of the era). You will see where Honda points out "CONDENSOR PULSER GENERATOR", which is a capacitor that is held at 1/2 Vcc (about 6 volts here). This capacitor shapes the pulse from the coil on the spark pickup that is mounted to the engine.

When the trigger pulse arrives from the coil it discharges this CONDENSOR PULSER GENERATOR to 0 volts for a single pulse discharge. This pulse is limited to 0 volts (actually -0.6 volts) by the DIODE, as labeled to protect TRANSISTOR1 from too much reverse-bias (which would damage it). This causes the collector of TRANSISTOR1 to spike to 12 volts for the same pulse duration, which is current-boosted by TRANSISTOR2 to drive the power output TRANSISTOR3. This final transistor powerfully pulses the very low-ohms IGNITION COIL to make a spark. (It is a pulse-drive system, not a Kettering coil-discharge arrangement.) The negative kickback voltage form the primary side of the coil, which would normally overly reverse-bias TRANSISTOR3 and damage it, is limited to 0.6 volts by the ZENER DIODE, while the peak voltage kickback of the coil is limited by this ZENER DIODE to a safe level that won't hurt the power transistor. (Note: this is why, when riders change to "high output" coils on this system, it eats the power transistor: too much kickback voltage from such coils overloads this ZENER DIODE and shorts it out).

This is the classic Capacitive Discharge Ignition system, as designed in the early 1960s, and several times published for builders (like me) in places like Electronics Design Magazine, Popular Electronics, Hotrod magazine, and many other places. The spark duration is controlled by the DISCHARGE of a CAPACITOR, hence the name. The capacitor's storage (in uF) determines how long the coil will be pulsed.

In the late 1960s and through the 1980s there were (large and expensive) aftermarket CDI boxes made that multiplied the 12 volts of a typical car to be several thousand volts, using oscillator circuits and transformers, to supply this high voltage to the coils' primary side, thus multiplying the output side of the coil to dozens, even hundreds, of thousands of volts. This was needed then to fire nitro-fueled engines: the large storage of this high voltage was done using a bank of high-voltage capacitors to store enough energy to ensure the spark would happen, because if one of these engines misses one sparkplug firing, the engine will self-destruct due to the fuel being liquid and fully compressed when the spark fires. So, there had to be NO CHANCE of a misfire, and these fancy high-power ignitions ensured the spark would happen, even if the sparkplug came apart for some reason. Since these racing versions were also capacitive-discharge-signal driven (like the CB650 version), they were called Capacitive Discharge Ignitions. The marketers of the MSD version never bothered to explain that they didn't invent it: they just claimed to be the best at it, and advertised like they were the only inventors of it. So, this is what most folks think of when they now hear the term "CDI", but that's not the truth: there are many simpler versions of them out there - including the ones used in the CB650. Since around the 1990s there have been those (probably lawyers for MSD) who decided to call the ones without thousands of volts of coil drive energy "pulser ignitions" instead, but they aren't - and now, you know the difference. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline kerryb

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Re: CB650 CDI Ignition System explained
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2024, 03:32:06 PM »
Thank you!  I'm going to go back and read that a few more times, but I think I understand.  I have read that the potting compound sometimes melts and drips out.  Also read that it can be put back in with epoxy to continue use.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB650 CDI Ignition System explained
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2024, 08:39:09 PM »
Thank you!  I'm going to go back and read that a few more times, but I think I understand.  I have read that the potting compound sometimes melts and drips out.  Also read that it can be put back in with epoxy to continue use.

Melts out? That's one I haven't heard before. They do have quite small heatsinks, compared to most electronic ignitions.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline bryanj

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Re: CB650 CDI Ignition System explained
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2024, 02:19:51 AM »
Dont think it "melts" Mark, more degrades with age and liquefies
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Offline kerryb

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Re: CB650 CDI Ignition System explained
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2024, 06:18:33 AM »
I might be confusing the stories with goldwing igniters
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Offline bryanj

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Re: CB650 CDI Ignition System explained
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2024, 08:43:25 AM »
No I have heard of 650 ones loosing potting compound as well
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

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Offline fizzlebottom

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Re: CB650 CDI Ignition System explained
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2024, 09:42:21 AM »
Yeah, that's the most common way folks find out their ignitors are failing: the compound turns to goo and starts melting out. I've read that it was more common with the units manufactured by OKI than the ones by NEC. I think this is one of those parts that aftermarket is fine, as its just a populated PCB with some black epoxy glue to protect the electronic components from water intrusion and corrosion. I think the old stuff either simply broke down over time or there were air pockets preventing perfect contact with the heatsink.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB650 CDI Ignition System explained
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2024, 11:42:11 AM »
Yeah, that's the most common way folks find out their ignitors are failing: the compound turns to goo and starts melting out. I've read that it was more common with the units manufactured by OKI than the ones by NEC. I think this is one of those parts that aftermarket is fine, as its just a populated PCB with some black epoxy glue to protect the electronic components from water intrusion and corrosion. I think the old stuff either simply broke down over time or there were air pockets preventing perfect contact with the heatsink.

This makes sense: the metal used on the case as the 'heatsink' for the transistor inside is a zinc-based pot metal, much like the carbs on these bikes. Almost nothing will glue to it without also attacking it chemically.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: CB650 CDI Ignition System explained
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2024, 03:23:53 PM »
Thank you!  I'm going to go back and read that a few more times, but I think I understand.  I have read that the potting compound sometimes melts and drips out.  Also read that it can be put back in with epoxy to continue use.

Melts out? That's one I haven't heard before. They do have quite small heatsinks, compared to most electronic ignitions.

Common problem on CBX1000 CDi's.

I had a CX500B that I recovered from a damp shed with only 300 genuine miles (roof had rotted away) . When I tested the CDi unit it didn't work (this bike had the hard epoxy potting not polyurethane). It turned out that moisture had seeped between the metal case and the epoxy and due to poor potting there was a void in the bottom,  which exposed a bare area of the underside of the PCB. Shame on you Hitachi. I also de-potted a CD250U CDi last year, where one electrolytic capacitor was connected the wrong way round ... even the silk-screened ident showed the wrong polarity.

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB650 CDI Ignition System explained
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2024, 07:51:47 PM »
I had a CX500B that I recovered from a damp shed with only 300 genuine miles (roof had rotted away) . When I tested the CDi unit it didn't work (this bike had the hard epoxy potting not polyurethane). It turned out that moisture had seeped between the metal case and the epoxy and due to poor potting there was a void in the bottom,  which exposed a bare area of the underside of the PCB. Shame on you Hitachi. I also de-potted a CD250U CDi last year, where one electrolytic capacitor was connected the wrong way round ... even the silk-screened ident showed the wrong polarity.

Now, THAT should be embarrasing! That capacitor sure wouldn't last very long. :(
Was it possibly the failure that parked the bike so young? That's longer than I'd except it to last, but then, I've seen stranger stuff than that before.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline scottly

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Re: CB650 CDI Ignition System explained
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2024, 08:40:32 PM »


Take a look at the Honda shop manual, section 17, page 200 for the schematic of the amplifiers (which are also used on several other branded bikes of the era).
Mark, I don't have that manual. Could you please post the schematic? Thanks.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB650 CDI Ignition System explained
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2024, 12:26:02 AM »


Take a look at the Honda shop manual, section 17, page 200 for the schematic of the amplifiers (which are also used on several other branded bikes of the era).
Mark, I don't have that manual. Could you please post the schematic? Thanks.
Here's one on page 220: http://manuals.sohc4.net/cb650/service_manual/SM65079_17.pdf
I can't help it; I still interpret that scheme as a 'conventional' transistorized ignition, similar to the one I made my self.
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Offline rotortiller

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Re: CB650 CDI Ignition System explained
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2024, 02:51:39 AM »
Quote
I still interpret that scheme as a 'conventional' transistorized ignition

Honda who designed the thing clearly terms it a transistorized ignition, I too agree as much as I hate to.  To fire the spark plug a battery powers the CB650 collapsing primary field coil (inductive discharge ignition) just like a CB750 or CB550, on the CDI type a capacitor discharges into the CDI coil. It's a different type of energy transfer method supplied into the spark plug. The only thing similar and desirable is they both eliminate troublesome breaker points when using pulser coils or magnetic devices as the initiating device.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2024, 02:58:02 AM by rotortiller »

Offline scottly

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Re: CB650 CDI Ignition System explained
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2024, 09:27:46 AM »
Looks like a non-CDI electronic ignition to me, also.
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