Author Topic: '72 Carb Tuning  (Read 624 times)

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Offline Coltww12

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'72 Carb Tuning
« on: August 29, 2024, 10:21:08 AM »
Hey Everyone! I wanted to get everyone's opinion on a couple things. I've got a 72 CB750 that I've been working on. I've been working on carbs. I've got all the basics, cam, points, valves and timing adjusted. It's important to note that we're running a 4into1 exhaust and pod filters.

We got an ultrasonic cleaner and took the carbs apart and cleaned them. For the rebuild. I bought a stock rebuild kit. This is where I think I'm getting some issues. Before the carb rebuild, the bike would start up no hesitation even after sitting for several days. It idled well, but seemed to backfire and choke up when riding. After the rebuild, it barely wants to start. I have to fully choke it and cut off all air until it starts to slowly fire up. But it runs great when riding it. There's still a tiny bit of crackling when decelerating, but it's clean and steady.

I've got a few ideas that could be the problem:

1.) Needles: the previous owner had larger needles that we swapped for the original size in the rebuild kit. Do you think we should put the old needles back in?

2.) Air set screws: With this configuration, I've read 1.25 turns out is likely good. But I've seen so many opinions on this... what do you guys think? Is there a proper way to "tune" these to find what the bike actually wants?

3.) Pilot Jet: someone mentioned that the pilot jet that was on the bike may have been bigger and helped to support the bike at idle. I swapped the old pilot back in and it didn't seem to make any difference in how it ran.

I'm curious what you guys all think. I'll include a picture of the carbs so you guys can see which design they are and I'll post a picture of the rebuild kit and old needles. Ignore the writing in that picture.

Online bryanj

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Re: '72 Carb Tuning
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2024, 10:25:44 AM »
What you need is Honda parts not aftermarket rebuild kits which are notorious for incorrect needle profile and jets not the correct size.
May be cheaper to get a different set of carbs as long as they aint been ownerised
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline PeWe

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Re: '72 Carb Tuning
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2024, 11:10:24 AM »
Verify stamped numbers on the needles.
Only Keihin stock.
The carbs have a stamped number too. Below 064A (stock on 1975 F) and 086A (K6).
Same bike needles 3and 4.
064A work better on my K2 (parts build) than the 086A did.
There are other models.

The different needles with their clip settings. Usually 3 or 4th notch from top.
Pilot always 40 if I have got it right.

Air screw 1 turn out +/- 1/4 depending on filter, pipes and carbs.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2024, 12:06:05 PM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline HondaMan

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Re: '72 Carb Tuning
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2024, 05:52:20 PM »
K2 - starting with the basics:
Slow jet #40 Keihin or #42 Keyster in carbs of type 657B.
Air screws set between 1/2 turn and 1-1/2 turns is their whole range - OUT is RICHER, IN is LEANER. Turns beyond either of these extremes doesn't change any more in that direction. Stock is 1.0 turn out with Keihin #40 pilot jets and brand-new carb bodies: it becomes less turns with age because each successive bottoming of the screws widens the seat in the soft body of the carb - go gently!
Mainjets: if the bike was made before 3/1972 they were #110, which was often too rich. After 3/72 they became #105 (and stayed there until the roundtop carbs disappeared).
Float level: before 3/1972 builds some of the K2 bikes had brass floats (mine did, originally). If yours are brass, there are tiny slivers of metal sticking up, adjacent to the notches on the bowl gasket surface, that are to be used as the float 0 reference - not the float gasket surface. However, if the floats are plastic, this little edge will be missing: then the float reference surface (sans gasket) is the 0 height reference. Floats should be set at 26mm height for starters. (The posts for the float's pin changes between these 2 carb types, altering the float height.)
Slide needles: the OEM version are numbered #27201 and the clip goes into the 4th notch from the top (blunt end) of the needle. If yours don't have this number on them, they are not Keihin needles.
Needle valve (in the throat of the carb) for Keihin are different from those used for Keyster's fatter needles. They must be changed in sets or the Keyster needles will stick in the needle valves. If the Keyster needle valves are installed then the Keihin needles will rattle around from looseness even when the slides are fully closed, so fuel gets sucked up the mainjet too early in the throttle sequence, making everything uncontrollably rich.

The Keyster brass parts ALL run MUCH leaner than the Keihin parts: they are not properly designed for use in these carbs (never were), but have often been installed anyway. The Keyster parts will make the engine run very lean if the above jetting numbers are used (which usually come in their kits). Typically this lean: if all else is set to usable points, the mainjets must be in the range of #125-#140, depending on the other mods done to the engine. Compare that with the stock #105-#110. ;)

I won't get started on trying to use pod filters on this bike: they don't work well, nor can they be made to. You will have to accept some serious compromises to use them, including short sparkplug life.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline M 750K6

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Re: '72 Carb Tuning
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2024, 09:29:38 PM »
Wonder if all Keyster kits are the same? I'm running a 750K6. When I compared the Keyster needles (I'd sourced from David Silver) with those I'd removed, the Keyster were thinner. I was running rich and finally went back to my original needles and that got me back in range.

That said, I didn't check for Keihin numbers on the original needles. I had put in a new Keihin needle jet though.

Offline PeWe

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Re: '72 Carb Tuning
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2024, 05:46:05 AM »
Todays fuel vs old jetting numbers when fuel was different?
E5, E10 must make leaner.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Online newday777

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Re: '72 Carb Tuning
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2024, 06:38:23 AM »
Wonder if all Keyster kits are the same? I'm running a 750K6. When I compared the Keyster needles (I'd sourced from David Silver) with those I'd removed, the Keyster were thinner. I was running rich and finally went back to my original needles and that got me back in range.

That said, I didn't check for Keihin numbers on the original needles. I had put in a new Keihin needle jet though.
Keyster needles don't match up to Keihin jets.
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Online newday777

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Re: '72 Carb Tuning
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2024, 01:05:19 AM »
Hey Everyone! I wanted to get everyone's opinion on a couple things. I've got a 72 CB750 that I've been working on. I've been working on carbs. I've got all the basics, cam, points, valves and timing adjusted. It's important to note that we're running a 4into1 exhaust and pod filters.

We got an ultrasonic cleaner and took the carbs apart and cleaned them. For the rebuild. I bought a stock rebuild kit. This is where I think I'm getting some issues. Before the carb rebuild, the bike would start up no hesitation even after sitting for several days. It idled well, but seemed to backfire and choke up when riding. After the rebuild, it barely wants to start. I have to fully choke it and cut off all air until it starts to slowly fire up. But it runs great when riding it. There's still a tiny bit of crackling when decelerating, but it's clean and steady.

I've got a few ideas that could be the problem:

1.) Needles: the previous owner had larger needles that we swapped for the original size in the rebuild kit. Do you think we should put the old needles back in?

2.) Air set screws: With this configuration, I've read 1.25 turns out is likely good. But I've seen so many opinions on this... what do you guys think? Is there a proper way to "tune" these to find what the bike actually wants?

3.) Pilot Jet: someone mentioned that the pilot jet that was on the bike may have been bigger and helped to support the bike at idle. I swapped the old pilot back in and it didn't seem to make any difference in how it ran.

I'm curious what you guys all think. I'll include a picture of the carbs so you guys can see which design they are and I'll post a picture of the rebuild kit and old needles. Ignore the writing in that picture.

So what did you end up doing?? No reply is not good form on your part.......
What stock kit did you get, and from who??
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline willbird

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Re: '72 Carb Tuning
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2024, 10:36:24 AM »
Todays fuel vs old jetting numbers when fuel was different?
E5, E10 must make leaner.

Hmm the blend changes the viscosity of the fuel too ?? I get it that E100 would need to be what 40% richer ?? That was the number I always read anyway way back in "Browns Alcohol Fuel Cookbook" :-).

Bill

Offline scottly

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Re: '72 Carb Tuning
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2024, 08:18:04 PM »

So what did you end up doing?? No reply is not good form on your part.......

Stu, it's not good form to scold someone for something you are also guilty of. ;)
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,172622.0.html
 
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Online newday777

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Re: '72 Carb Tuning
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2024, 03:15:28 AM »

So what did you end up doing?? No reply is not good form on your part.......

Stu, it's not good form to scold someone for something you are also guilty of. ;)
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,172622.0.html
Yes and I learned to do it from you already Scott. I did answer to that already.
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A