Topic: Unable to set 4into1 electronic ignition position, no LED. No spark.

[ryanGDanderson]

Hi everyone, first post. I have a 75 CB750F that probably hasn't run in 20 years. I'm trying to resurrect it, currently hung at the ignition system.

Here is what I got: https://4into1.com/electronic-ignition-honda-cb500k-550-750.  The original points assembly was too far-gone to save, so I bought the linked electronic ignition plate. When installing the unit, I eventually got to the step where I had to slowly rotate the plate until a little LED turns on, indicating that its in a good position. Unfortunately, the LED wouldn't turn on in any rotation, whatsoever. The instructions state to only do this test when the blue/yellow wires (to coils) are disconnected, leaving only black connected. I searched for a while on the internet, and spoke with 4into1 customer service about the unit maybe is faulty (highly unlikely). So here I am, looking for some advice.

Background: I cleaned and lubricated the spark advancer (surprisingly good shape). I have rebuilt/repaired much of the electrical system (including handlebar switches), carbs, gas tank. I bought, assembled, and installed these Magna coils: https://4into1.com/set-of-2-magna-dual-output-coils-with-wire-5-ohms-honda-cb350f-400f-500k-550-750-gl1000/. I tested the coils, the relevant ignition wires for continuity/resistance, the ignition plate receiving power and grounding to engine case.
 
The 2 symptoms of this mysterious problem that concern me are:
1) the LED not turning on in any position
2) if I connect the blue/yellow (to coils) wires, the LED does turn on but only when the plate jiggles during rotation (probably from grounding and ungrounding).

My options as I see them:
1) there is a non-zero chance the ignition plate is faulty
2) somewhere else in the ignition system there is interference preventing the little LED from activating from only black wire (power) connection
3) the spark advancer is somehow at fault
4) the coils+wires+plugs that I purchased have too much resistance to spark

Thanks for any help, and I have plenty of photos if they become necessary. Also I apologize in advance if this is a supremely stupid post.

[seanbarney41]

You got the key and the kill switch switched ON for all tests right?

[ryanGDanderson]

Yes I do, verified with a test light. I’m triggering the electric starter.

Thanks so much for posting

[seanbarney41]

yeah, not trying to insult by posting the obvious, that was about all I could come up with  I am not familiar with that particular ignition...maybe next try to confirm that you have 12 volts on the black wire and it makes it all the way to ignition module

Also, might try back tracking to the stock points system just to get a baseline on your wiring...it might seem antiquated and un-familiar, but if you have all the parts, some fiddling can usually get you some sparks at the right time.

[ryanGDanderson]

Please insult me hehe, I’m a noob. Just kidding, no insulting or disparaging is possible.

I confirmed that the 4into1 ignition plate is receiving power using a test light, where the light would illuminate when connected from the plate’s black wire solder point to ground, AND where the black wire would illuminate the light THROUGH the ignition on plate’s ground (can provide photos of both situations).

I’m sure with enough time I could resurrect the original point advancer plate. Perhaps that’s what I should do?

Thanks so much for your response and time.

Ryan
 

[jaytee-nz]

If the ignition plate is receiving power (as you have confirmed) and you are following the instructions given, the plate must be faulty. I would ask for a refund / replacement.
Not the first time 4into1 has sold a product of questionable quality unfortunately.

[Alan F.]

I'm with Jaytee but didn't want to be the first to go there. If their technical support can't or won't ask you to put a test meter to a couple of numbered points on the circuit board, then it's just a failure and they owe you a replacement and free shipping.

This is likely a re-branded product and the vendor doesn't want to take the hit of replacing one. I'd certainly place an impartial, non-editorial product review on their website, then watch for it to disappear.

[Don R]

 Your mention of it going on/off while jiggling makes me wonder if the plate/engine has a good ground.

[Little_Phil]

Yes I do, verified with a test light. I’m triggering the electric starter.

Thanks so much for posting

Probably a red herring:
I've seen the instructions and they say do not turn the plate when the engine is running to do the dynamic setting when all connections made. Presume the plate must always be tight to bike earth when all connections made. Presume you only had black connected at this time.

[ryanGDanderson]

Thank you all so much for the information, and your time.

Yes I do, verified with a test light. I’m triggering the electric starter.

Thanks so much for posting

Probably a red herring:
I've seen the instructions and they say do not turn the plate when the engine is running to do the dynamic setting when all connections made. Presume the plate must always be tight to bike earth when all connections made. Presume you only had black connected at this time.

If I'm understanding your post correctly, I will confirm that I had followed the directions to spec. No running engine, plate confirmed to have good ground with engine, only black connection. Apologies if I'm not understanding you.

Your mention of it going on/off while jiggling makes me wonder if the plate/engine has a good ground.

So here was my test for the plate grounding: plate unplugged and screwed into engine case, test light clipped to powered black wire from harness, tapped light against the plate where touching the case--light turned on. I can provide a picture of that set up. Though please let me know if my little test isn't doing what I think it is, which wouldn't surprise me

I'm with Jaytee but didn't want to be the first to go there. If their technical support can't or won't ask you to put a test meter to a couple of numbered points on the circuit board, then it's just a failure and they owe you a replacement and free shipping.

This is likely a re-branded product and the vendor doesn't want to take the hit of replacing one. I'd certainly place an impartial, non-editorial product review on their website, then watch for it to disappear.

If the ignition plate is receiving power (as you have confirmed) and you are following the instructions given, the plate must be faulty. I would ask for a refund / replacement.
Not the first time 4into1 has sold a product of questionable quality unfortunately.

It sounds like the solution is that I should return/exchange for a Dyna, or some other trusted manufacturer. 

[Don R]

 It's extra frustrating when you are working on a previously non running machine and the new parts throw you a curveball, makes you question everything. It sounds like you have done your diligence on it.

[ryanGDanderson]

It's extra frustrating when you are working on a previously non running machine and the new parts throw you a curveball, makes you question everything. It sounds like you have done your diligence on it.

Thank you so much for saying that, and for your advice! I am very confused right now because there is no reliable way to test the ignition unit in isolation; 4into1 customer service told me that their test by attaching it to a working bike -_-. The uncertainty is certainly frustrating. I just wish there was a way I could test this ignition plate.

FWIW I attached a photo of the compartment (I probably should have from the start). I confirmed good ground to engine case, and good ground between case and ignition plate, but maybe I'm missing some kind of defect with the points compartment itself? I originally wanted to use the existing points system... but the plate was so corroded, and so out of setting (from what I could see) that the spark advancer's cam didn't even push them open or shut when turning the crank with my wrench.

Knowing that, any advice on if it's better to refurbish the points advancer, as bad as it is, or to spend the money for an electronic ignition more reliable than the one I am returning? Sigh

[Don R]

 Oooh, those broken off bolts are ugly too. What part of the world do you live in? I was actually close enough once to go over and help.

[ANDREAS MILKE]

Hello ryanGDanderson.

I'm writing here because of your electronic ignition. Do you have the installation manual? You can share? Can you test the ignition on a bench? Do you have a 12 volt dc power supply? Did you measure if you have 12 volts on the board's power wires? do you have a small magnet to test the board? You can remove the rotor and use the magnet to test the Hall sensors on the ignition plate.
I have a friend that have a similar problem (Kokusan ignition), the problem was a inverted magnet into the rotor.....its possible that is yor problem...
I made my own ignition that uses only electronic advance and does not require the use of the centrifugal system with its springs (I describe the problem below). You can see in the link below how I did it:
I decided to make a new electronic ignition for my Honda CB500k. I used a transistorized electronic ignition for more than 6 years that I made using the current centrifugal advance system and the original points. In Brazil we have a particularity of gasoline, it has almost 30% alcohol in its formula, this causes problems with burning the fuel; the engine performance is bad with the mechanical advance and the amount of 30% alcohol in the gasoline mixture, I modified springs to improve the advance, but it was not good. so I decided to make a programmable electronic ignition with the possibility to store up to eight different advance curves. With the possibility of programming the spark advance I will be able to test and improve the performance of my engine.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186952.msg2183645/topicseen.html#msg2183645

[Alan F.]

I was wondering if it was possible that the magnet was installed backwards. I used to work with motion control systems that used hall effect sensors to trigger travel limits, sometimes someone would install a magnet backwards....crash.

[ryanGDanderson]

Hi everyone,
Thanks for all the information, your time, and I apologize for the delay in responding. I haven't had much bike time this past week. Today I can report that the bike started and ran, probably first time in at least 10 years, maybe 20! Since I last posted/read your posts, here's the where-we-are-and-how-we-got-here:

I chose to order a second electronic ignition --from eBay-- that is closer to the Dyna. Installed "Dyna" ignition per instructions, and the test light was always on regardless of engine rotation. To get 12v to ignition, I tried both the black wire (battery -> brake switch) and the black/white wire (kill switch -> coils). Ground was good. Scratched my head.

Re-diagramed ignition wiring system as a sanity check. System was wired correctly, and all relevant components, including "Dyna" plate, bench-tested and working. No way to bench-test the 4into1 ignition -___-

Finally said F electronic ignitions (for now), refurbished the rust pile that was the original points plate using kickass YouTube videos as guides. Attached to bike and finally got spark. Then I added some gas and got it running w/ electric starter. It felt awesome to resurrect this dead machine, Bichael Jordan.

As of today:
1. Age-old lesson I should have heeded: reduce variables when working with unknowns. I should have used the original points plate to start because the bike wasn't running. I thought the points plate was toast, and that electronic ignitions were plug-and-play; both assumptions incorrect.
2. My bike might have something up with the engine case, crank, etc that is causing electronic ignitions to fail. I believe the 4into1 ignition is faulty, and the "Dyna" ignition could also be faulty... but the probability that they're both faulty feels infinitesimal.
3. Cylinders 2/3 aren't firing (cold pipes), but with confirmed spark/combustion from 1/4 troubleshooting is trivial (relatively speaking).
4. This forum is truly awesome. I haven't posted anything online anywhere in a years because of receiving too much snark/sass/abuse from other social media. I took a little risk with this post, and I want to thank everyone reading and posting for being kind, normal humans.

[ekpent]

"You meet the nicest people on a Honda"

[Don R]

 Thanks for the report, often we don't hear the solution to a problem, and no one learns from it. Remember to have fun during the process even when it doesn't seem to be any fun.
  I've had a lot of fun with bike names especially the Nugget which changed names a dozen times or so. The bike is a gold nugget now but when I got it, it was brown and a different kind of nugget.
 
  When I got back into bikes after a long time away, I got one that would start but die within 10 seconds. I tried multiple carb racks, ignitions, I hot wired the bike, got a fuel IV bottle, and even swapped the engine. The problem remained.
  I got a beer and called my brother and told him I've changed everything except the frame and exhaust. Ding, ding, ding! I hung up, removed the exhaust baffle and it started and ran. The baffle had been plugged by the PO improperly replacing the fiberglass packing. You never know what you might find.

[PeWe]

Good to know about possible wrong mounted magnet and how to check it.

[Alan F.]

One of the moderators at vintagehondatwins.com used to use the signature line, "Running points, because I'm tired of mysteries that begin with pushing."

I don't know what the success/failure rate is with aftermarket ignitions as a whole. It's probably weighted heavily toward success, but they all ran on points once.

[Wizard]

Hi all I too have been down the same path with not being able to get a test light I watched plenty of you tube videos showing how to setup my electronic ignition no brand name new coils strange my bike runs ok not great but runs all the same.
I agree best get bike running with points first then only buy trusted brand ignition system if you feel the need a base line to start from using points is the go.

[dave500]

also check the spark plug caps resistance,if they are way old just replace them.

[Wizard]

Just a follow up on my previous comments installed my electronic ignition back on bike this time instead of trying to use test light I used a timing light which worked, now my ignition is timed correctly on both 1&4 2&3 you can turn plate with engine running super easy to do.
Info: Pamco ignition.