Topic: 1976 550cb - charging issue?

[jjc]

Well I may have a charging issue
My headlight is DIM and once my new battery would not turn over going home after 100 miles. Then 10 min later it did and started
So,guess a complete ck of the charging system is necessary. But how to do it
 Battery ck - put a meter on it. After 100 miles it should read good.
System output - ? Not sure how to ck this.

[calj737]

Sounds a lot more like a loose ground wire at the battery or the frame (from battery to frame). Start with a 10mm wrench 

[jjc]

Tested the rather new battery and it read 12.6v So tried to start & barely turned over once and this is after 100 mile ride.
So I'm thinking take the battery back toundrr warranty and they will do their typical overnight charge and let me know. Thinking can't ck the system until the battery issue is sorted out,right?

[bryanj]

You need a good, fully charged battery to test the charging system, all the testing is in the manual

[HondaMan]

While waiting for the battery: check the condition of the fuses in the fuseblock. See if they have nice, shiny end caps, and the fuse clips are not corroded. Most of the OEM versions are in trouble now, as their chromate plating flaked off about 40 years ago (it was supposed to last 10 years) and it becomes a resistor instead, heating the fuses and even damaging the fuseblock (melting the clip's mounts). I have a modern version if you decide to replace yours.

The other question: does the bike has normal points-and-condensors for ignition, or has someone installed a Dyna S electronic unit in it? In the USA we must ride with our lights on now (thank you, Jimmy Carter) and if the bike has a Dyna S as well, then the battery cannot be charged by the alternator until 5100 RPM or higher. This will drain the battery with normal in-town riding, and quickly. There are several workarounds if you are stuck with the Dyna S, up to and including removing it for something else that doesn't use all the bike's power just to make sparks.

[calj737]

Tested the rather new battery and it read 12.6v So tried to start & barely turned over once and this is after 100 mile ride.
So I'm thinking take the battery back toundrr warranty and they will do their typical overnight charge and let me know. Thinking can't ck the system until the battery issue is sorted out,right?

Checking the battery with a voltage meter, you are reading directly from the battery. The electric start gets voltage transmitted through the wiring and the frame. That’s why I encourage you to check all the connections, first. It is extremely common for terminal connections to come loose over time, due to vibration, or from insufficient tightening when swapping batteries.

[scottly]

Tested the rather new battery and it read 12.6v

Measuring directly at the battery terminals, how much does the voltage drop from 12.6v when the key is turned on and the headlight is on? 

[Stev-o]

Battery voltage is just one test, it needs to have a load on it to test as well.   And yes, need to have a confirmed good battery as the first test.

There is a simple charging system check once back running:  check voltage at battery at different RPM speeds, 2000 3000 4000, voltage should rise.

Oregon has a good write up on further testing if required...

http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/Diag_tech.html

[Deltarider]

My routine with batteries.
1. With a marker I always write the month and year it began its service on the battery.
2. A fully charged battery should read minimal 12,6 V after being left alone for say 24 hrs.
3. When in doubt, I connect an analogue voltmeter to the terminals of a fully charged battery and monitor the drop in voltage @ cranking electrically. When voltage during cranking drops below 10V, it indicates at least one cell is at its end.
The above concludes all I have ever done with batteries.
My actual conventional Yuasa has now served 7 years and 5 months. The kickstarter has not been used once. Electric starts only. A new conventional one is - still dry - on the shelf.

To check charging, I don't even bother to connect a meter. After starting I bring on the headlight. If brightness increases when revved, I can abstain from additional tests. I'm good to go. I usually carry a DMM on trips though.

[jjc]

Some good info on replies. Right now I know due to a load test, the battery is good. So now on to all connections,fuses, and try to find the regulator being I don't know what it looks like.
I will do the headlight test revving to see if it gets brighter.
As for points, I replaced them 20yrs ago with a admitter type. Sends out a beam and it's broken by a spinning part. Don't recall who made it so don't know if it is the one mentioned above. But has been working ok for yrs.
So on to connections and where is that regulator

[calj737]

Regulator is on the left side, beneath the side body panel where your fuses are. It has a “goldish” dome on it with a BLK, GRN and WHT connection from the Rectifier.

[bryanj]

Wasit Boyer ignition, they tend to fail after 25 years

[jjc]

Thanks for the name of the ign system.  But the bike was parked for 15 yrs, so my ignition should be about new. I'd say maybe 5k of use on it

[jjc]

Test - I have cked fuses & connectors but not finding anything loose , corroded etc  so back to regulator & charging circuit. But my  Haynes covering "cb400 & cb550 fours" doesn't cover how to ck the system to see 1) what it is putting out. 2) what's getting to the battery.
FYI: my 100 mile trip was cruising at 5-55k rpm. So according to another post my battery should of been getting charged.
OK, time to get to the regulator & stator.

[jjc]

Test -
At the battery with meter clipped on. 12.6 start and slight drop then back to 13v. Reving to 4k needle goes up showing a charge getting to battery.
Now to me that says bike's putting out & it's getting to the battery.
BTY. No extras added to the charging circuit.

So,why was my battery dead at the end of my ride
Need some new ideas

[bryanj]

They dont charge till over 3500rpm with lights on so if you were pootling about locally its discharging all the time

[jjc]

I stated i was traveling at 5-55k & with meter on battery it dips at start and shows charging when reved.  I believe it was 14-15 v at 4k.

So, why am i getting a charge indication and the battery was dead after 100miles?

[bryanj]

1 its straight time that degrades the boyer not mileage
2 did you read the eplanation of the charging circuit? In rare cases the points can "stick" intermittently causing not full charge, only seen one do that and it was mine

[jjc]

[quote
1 its straight time that degrades the boyer not mileage
2 did you read the eplanation of the charging circuit? In rare cases the points can "stick" intermittently causing not full charge, only seen one do that and it was mine
[/quote]

OK, I'm trying to follow, but may be getting lost
Since age is an issue, is there a ck i can do to eliminate points as 'another' issue, not anything related to my charging issue

I have read my manuel but it doesn't say much. So I did the charging test ie, meter to battery. Turn on and start.read meter seeing the voltage come back. Then rev and see if battery gets juice and it did. About 14 or 15 volts. Had the battery cked under load, it cked out ok
So from what I now gather the charging system is putting out and it is getting to the battery.
This is where I get lost on the 'battery' issue. Getting juice but went bad/low?

Back to the points. Please direct me to a new system. I have replaced coils, lines, plugs.

Still could use some info on why the battery went low. I have no other items wired to the bike. So, head light & turn signals.
Thanks

[scottly]

Still could use some info on why the battery went low.

Did the battery really go low? The lowest voltage reported so far was 12.6v.

[Deltarider]

What battery is it, you have? Please specify make and model. So far there's no indication for an issue with the charging. To learn some more, I suggest reading the scheme at the bottom of page 94 here: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/chxwmrwu7hk90h3cju1jc/Honda-CB500_CB550-Four-Service-Manual-Ammended.pdf?rlkey=nannxqqgvyfelf0d0rp3z92sc&e=1&dl=0
Restrain yourself from doing all kinds of tests. The charging system is robust, has a good reputation and rarely malfunctions.

[Little_Phil]

What's an admitter type ignition?  You say that a spinning disc breaks a beam. Sounds like Newtronics (Piranha). I've used one for 30 years. Does it kick start easily? You say the voltage at the battery rises as the rpm increases, does the headlight also get brighter? If it's just a starter motor problem, then as already suggested it sounds like a problem with the cable that goes to earth or the +ve cable that goes to the starter solenoid, or the starter solenoid itself.

[jjc]

Still could use some info on why the battery went low.

Did the battery really go low? The lowest voltage reported so far was 12.6v.

Ya, it was dead after my ride
12.6 was after charging it

[Stev-o]

Still could use some info on why the battery went low.

Did the battery really go low? The lowest voltage reported so far was 12.6v.

Ya, it was dead after my ride
12.6 was after charging it

This is sounding like a bad battery.  Did you have it load tested?  Just checking the voltage is not sufficient

[jjc]

What battery is it, you have? Please specify make and model. So far there's no indication for an issue with the charging.

Read the page & seems my charging circuit is working since I am getting juice to battery in the 14-15 range.
Battery is sealed lead acid.

[jjc]

This is sounding like a bad battery.  Did you have it load tested?  Just checking the voltage is not sufficient

Yes I've stated it was tested.
I believe it read 260 during testing at the store

[jjc]

What's an admitter type ignition?  You say that a spinning disc breaks a beam. Sounds like Newtronics (Piranha). I've used one for 30 years. Does it kick start easily? You say the voltage at the battery rises as the rpm increases, does the headlight also get brighter? If it's just a starter motor problem, then as already suggested it sounds like a problem with the cable that goes to earth or the +ve cable that goes to the starter solenoid, or the starter solenoid itself.

You asked about the headlight getting brighter & it does.
BTY, I replaced the starter solenoid about 110 miles ago because it was sticking. That was about 10 miles previous to my last ride with issues of about 100 miles

[calj737]

Ya, it was dead after my ride
12.6 was after charging it

To be really specific, you state the battery was “dead” after your ride. Did you confirm that with a meter reading directly from the battery, or are you making that statement because after the ride the electric start would not excite the motor? Turning the key to ON, did you have any lights?

How did the bike start again later? Did you charge it or did it “recover” after sitting. All these particulars point to different issues so the more detail the better and easier to assist you.

[jjc]

OK, review -
Starter solenoid replaced recently. It was sticking
Battery test under load & is good
Battery is getting 14+ volts when engine is reved to 4-5k
Battery was dead after 100 mile ride
Battery is sealed lead acid
Headlight gets Brighter when reved
Battery charged up good over night

Bty - is their a better headlight rhan stock. Mine is stock.
Is there a better elect ignition

FYI - when my bike went dead & would not start on my ride, I forgot I could jick start ut so never tried

[jjc]

Ya, it was dead after my ride
12.6 was after charging it

To be really specific, you state the battery was “dead” after your ride. Did you confirm that with a meter reading directly from the battery, or are you making that statement because after the ride the electric start would not excite the motor? Turning the key to ON, did you have any lights?

How did the bike start again later? Did you charge it or did it “recover” after sitting. All these particulars point to different issues so the more detail the better and easier to assist you.

Checked battery when i got home then changed it over night to get the 12.6v.
You know I never looked at the light, just changed it at home

[jjc]

Since two different people have speculated on which electronic ignition system I have is there a way to ID it. I put it in 25 yrs ago and don't have paperwork

[jjc]

Since two different people have speculated on which electronic ignition system I have is there a way to ID it. I put it in 25 yrs ago and don't have paperwork

My error I miss stated my ignition system. Got it confused with another bike
This is what I have

[calj737]

Ya, it was dead after my ride
12.6 was after charging it

To be really specific, you state the battery was “dead” after your ride. Did you confirm that with a meter reading directly from the battery, or are you making that statement because after the ride the electric start would not excite the motor? Turning the key to ON, did you have any lights?

How did the bike start again later? Did you charge it or did it “recover” after sitting. All these particulars point to different issues so the more detail the better and easier to assist you.

Checked battery when i got home then changed it over night to get the 12.6v.
You know I never looked at the light, just changed it at home

If your charging system is sending 14+ volts to the battery while riding, your issue is at the battery. If it recovers after charging, and supports the bike while riding, I’d still suspect a loose connection somewhere, but would not hesitate to swap the battery and repeat these tests.

The battery ground connections to the frame need a clean, bare metal surface at the frame AND motor to be reliable. And the connections all need to be quite tight.

[Deltarider]

I still wonder what type the sealed battery is: gel or AGM? AGM is fine, gel batteries in general don't like voltages over 14,3.