Author Topic: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976  (Read 630 times)

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Offline madsundaysurvivor

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Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« on: November 11, 2024, 08:57:17 AM »
good afternoon everyone,
 I introduce myself, I have always been a fan of classic motorcycles, I have been a mechanic and a racing driver and I have had many motorcycles from the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s, English, European, Japanese and American.

 My last acquisition was a 1976 Honda CB400F. The bike supposedly has 39,000 km and an engine problem.
 At idle it had a loud dull knock that disappears when accelerating. At first I thought it was the loose timing chain, primary chain or rotor loosen, but that's not the case.
I opened the engine and the crankshaft tolerances are within the limits of the manual. but not the axial ones:
-crank/journal 0.16mm manual says max 0.15mm.
 -crankshaft journal/crankcase I can't find the information, but it seems to me that it has too much.
What is the maximum for this value?
 Do you think this could be the problem and that when you accelerate the noise disappears because it self-centers? I have many doubts.

Thank you so much
« Last Edit: November 11, 2024, 09:02:55 AM by madsundaysurvivor »

Offline denward17

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2024, 09:41:33 AM »
I can't help, but welcome to the forum.  There are quite a few people here who own 400s, so maybe they will be along shortly.

Offline bryanj

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2024, 10:05:14 AM »
There is no tolerance for side to side play for either crank in cases or rods on crank as there is no thrust on the crank unlike a car engine.

Only accurate way to check for radial clearance is with plastigauge to check
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline madsundaysurvivor

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2024, 11:21:19 AM »
Thanks, I know, but the only measurement out of range is this (mine is 0.16mm):


 Radial clearance  measurements in conrods and cranckv journals give high values ​​but within the range

Offline bryanj

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2024, 11:57:07 AM »
That wont give a knock, is that print from a Honda manual? Never seen it before
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Online Tim2005

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2024, 11:59:21 AM »
I wouldn't worry about that extra .01mm side play. The loudness at idle is typically from the CB400F's untensioned primary chain, usually you can quieten it with a good engine service and carb balance

Offline madsundaysurvivor

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2024, 12:52:56 PM »
That wont give a knock, is that print from a Honda manual? Never seen it before
Yes, it is from page 80 of the work shop manual honda cb350f/400f

Offline madsundaysurvivor

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2024, 12:58:47 PM »
I wouldn't worry about that extra .01mm side play. The loudness at idle is typically from the CB400F's untensioned primary chain, usually you can quieten it with a good engine service and carb balance
It could be, it was my first thought, the slider is very worn, and the tensioner is somewhat seized in its hinge, but there are no signs of wear on the crankcases, I will change it and close the engine again to see what happens.

Offline madsundaysurvivor

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2024, 01:02:39 PM »
Thank you both very much for your expert advice. It's my first four of the 70s and I'm a little lost. I'm sure I have more questions and I thank you for the answers. I will also help solve the ones I know

Offline bryanj

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2024, 01:08:03 PM »
The only cure for excess rod side play is another rod, if the sides show signs of wear, if the crank shoulders were worn to excess, which i have never seen by the way, i think the crank would have broken.

Most common knock is the clutch basket dampers with unbalanced carbs. These rubbers were never available seperately from Honda but a couple of people do kits to drill out rivets, aftermarket rubbers and bolts to hold it together.
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Rayzerman

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2024, 05:31:02 AM »
The drive chain has a damper set also (unobtanium), and it's a feature of these engines to have a knocking sound until the idle speed is a bit higher.... that rod side play is negligible, don't sweat it at all.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2024, 07:38:16 AM »
Madsundaysurvivor, in general: the bottom end of any SOHC CB Four is practically indestructable.
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Offline Oddjob

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2024, 07:56:36 AM »
Change the primary chain and the primary damper rubbers at the same time. At 39000 miles it's near the end of it's life, well life without making noise that is. Check the clutch basket for movement of the rear sprocket, as Bryan says they seem to have a weak spot in that area. Grab the basket and try and move the rear sprocket front to back, if it moves the rubbers are gone and it will make noise.

Offline Bodi

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2024, 08:31:51 AM »
Agreed that 39000 miles on a 400F air cooled engine that tends to run pretty hot is going to have a fair bit of wear. I would suspect bore and piston wear, noise from them rocking around in the bores. Mine had some slapping noise that went away when I put an overbore kit in. The bottom end is really strong and assuming regular oil changes and no abuse the, main and rod bearings should be within spec at your mileage.
With the transverse crank there isn't any appreciable end thrust on the crank, there isn't a thrust bearing like car engines need. In my opinion end play at the crank over spec by 0.01mm is not an issue.
The drivetrain cush blocks are definitely going to be rock hard and worn down. That would tend to stop being noisy on acceleration as they get torqued. Not really a problem except for the noise. CMSNL has the rubbers at around $6.00 US each plus shipping, I think it uses 8 maybe more.
The primary chain may be slack and whipping at low throttle, not unusual. This should be easier to find a replacement for and CMSNL also have them. The "guide" is just a wear block but will be worn pat the 5mm service limit if the chain has been slack.
The clutch and transmission also make a fair racket if the carb sync is bad. Try doing a sync and see if that helps? Mostly this is rattling at idle but will carry at higher rpm at very low throttle.

Check the cam chain tensioner horseshoe while you're in the engine. A loose chain will damage it and make cam chain tensioning super difficult. Maybe pull the pushrod as well and smooth off any dents from the lock screw.

Offline bryanj

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2024, 09:20:37 AM »
If you want a primary chain its same as 500/550 and a Kawasaki genuine one is half the price of the Honda one, part number is mentioned many times on the forum
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline madsundaysurvivor

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2024, 01:38:46 AM »
Thank you very much for all your advice. Sometimes for me is dificult undesrtand english language.

In the end I see that my cb400f, although it does not have any  broken...it suffers from everything you mentioned:

-Free play with my hand on the clutch basket sprocket
-Free play with hand on the shock adsorvers of the primary chain, they look like stones instead of rubber.
-The guides and skates of both chains are below the limit.

On the other hand are the big end and crank case bearings. They are all within tolerances but once the engine is open I want to change them.

I am attaching a chart with all my measurements.
I don't understand the reference of the "D6B-A" bearings??? What letter identifies if it is D or B? or D5J-A is green, yellow, brown....
I think all mine are yellow,

According to the measurements in the drawing, what thickness should I buy?

Offline bryanj

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2024, 02:24:15 AM »
If the shells are clean, unscored and within tollerance i would reuse then due to cost, you are looking at 18 shells at up to £20 each
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Little_Phil

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2024, 03:05:07 AM »
If your D6B-A is the stamping on the bearing then they do NOT indicate what size (colour) the bearing is. All that tells you is all the D6A-B are from the same batch and the same size.

Offline madsundaysurvivor

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2024, 04:04:13 AM »
Yes, I know, unfortunately they are expensive... But on a motorcycle that I have to change, pistons, transmission chain, distribution chain, chain guides, cut or change valve seats, all the wiring sulfated, new exhausts, electronic ignition, paint chassis, radiate the wheels with new spokes... €360 will not be so noticeable.
I don't know what to do, I'm deciding it now.

Another question I have is about the primary chain transmission shaft bearings that go in the crankcase. When I remove the circlips, I can push out them with my fingers. I expected them to be attached to the crankcase with more interference. In other motorcycles I have to heat the crankcase to be able to take them out and put them in by hand.

It doesn't look like they turned on the outer track, but I don't like it.
Does the same happen on your motorcycles? Are they mounted so loosely?

Offline bryanj

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2024, 05:11:31 AM »
Yes they are
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Oddjob

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2024, 05:15:54 AM »
Yes they can be loose, not poke them out with your finger loose but a light tapping with a socket loose is not that uncommon. Sometimes they are tight but that's normally corrosion keeping them in place, the primary drive roller bearings in my experience are not that tightly fitted.

Whilst the D6B-A marking isn't an indication of colour, it is an indication that all the locations marked with that identifier are the same colour, so if you can identify one you've identified all those locations. Look on the edge of the bearing and sometimes you can still see the colour they print on there. It's on the very bottom of the half circle and right on the edge.

look on the back of the lower crankcase, it should have 5 letters stamped into the metal, let us know what they are. If nothing else they'll at least reduce the colour choice to 2-3 colours. On the crank are numbers and letters, 5 numbers, 4 letters, if you can see them let us know what they are. On the rods are a number and a letter, list those. That should give us enough info to identify the shell colours.

Certain colours are difficult to find these days, I have some 400 shells if you get stuck. Including some really rare colours like blue and red. Don't buy genuine Honda roller bearings for the primary shaft, just buy the same make from a bearing supplier, number is stamped on the old bearings as is the make, half the price, same quality. I also have some primary damper rubbers and the primary chain for sale if your interested, whereabouts in the world are you if English isn't your first language? Postage may be a problem due to expense.

Offline madsundaysurvivor

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2024, 05:50:23 AM »
All the numbers and codes you ask about are in the graph.

I write from Valencia-Spain, buying outside the CE is usually more expensive, after brexit, now customs charges fees for everything and often retains if the international code of the item sent is very generic

Offline bryanj

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2024, 07:05:53 AM »
You havent shown all the crank markings, there are 5 main journal codes and 4 big end codes
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline madsundaysurvivor

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2024, 07:38:00 AM »
Please, Can you show me when I find these marks?

Offline bryanj

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Re: Hello with crank problem CB400F 1976
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2024, 07:54:37 AM »
Same places as the ones you have shown but there will be one extra one
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!