Topic: L.A fires

[RAFster122s]

Well only positive news unrelated to fires this week I have seen is that Meta/Facebook is doing away with its Fact Checkers and actually states they have a bias and was not working correctly or as intended.

The devastation is massive and over 5000 structures destroyed by the wildfires. That is a lot of displaced people.

Pray for those fighting the fires and those being affected... Contribute to Red Cross and other well established relief organizations if you can.

I hope & pray the winds will die down and these fires be extinguished soon.

Gatlinburg TN had a wildfire not driven by as much wind a few years ago and it was extensive with many homes lost in the blaze. It was not concentrated in the city of  Gatlinburg as the surrounding mountainside around Gatlinburg, was a difficult fire because of terrain, similar to California's terrain adding to its complexity. By comparison the Smokey mountains are more like rolling hills compared to the ravines and ridge lines in the area where the fires are burning, but western US mountains are much more rugged or severe overall IMHO.

[vfourfreak]

Given the extent of the damage, and the high value of many of the properties lost, is there a possibility that insurance companies could claim some type of force majeure to avoid paying claims?

[RAFster122s]

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/15bFW6GHC2/

Aerial footage from ABC station of Pacific Palisades destruction

[carnivorous chicken]

Climate change is responsible for wildfires? Put down the bong, Dude. Wildfires have been encompassing the earth for 100,000 years, long before “climatologists” began their horse-hockey.

The wildfires are much worse now than ever before; they're Mega-fires. The average temperature of the Earth is higher now than it has been for 100,000 years, and the CO2 levels have increased to match. There have been new high temperature records set for the last three years here, and the daily temps in Phoenix have been 18 degrees above normal until a few days ago. 2024 was the warmest year in recorded history.

I find it fascinating that while 97% of climate scientists -- that is, people who devote their entire lives to studying the climate, 40 or more hours a week, for decades -- agree that the climate is changing due to human activity, a lot of people refuse to believe that and decide, after looking at a few web pages that confirm their bias, that it must be a hoax. Tragic event such as this, more devastating hurricanes, eroding coastlines, etc., are going to continue to plague the world and instead of looking at the big picture naysayers will blame "The environmentalists" or "the left" or whatever. It's part of what makes this so tragic.

Climate change is responsible for wildfires? Put down the bong, Dude. Wildfires have been encompassing the earth for 100,000 years, long before “climatologists” began their horse-hockey.

This thread was to express empathy and support for CA-fornians yet typically the Hall Monitors chime in to refute culpability of ignorant policies. Some things never change.

Annoyed that once again chirpers refuse culpability. I’m out-

Cantakerous Cal strikes again -- politicizes, criticizes, and splits! Pick up the bong dude!

 

[scottly]

https://science.nasa.gov/climate-change/faq/how-do-we-know-what-greenhouse-gas-and-temperature-levels-were-in-the-distant-past/

[scottly]

https://www.newsweek.com/why-trump-attacking-gavin-newsom-over-delta-smelt-fish-2012245

[vfourfreak]

"How do you know what fires were like in the West during the 1700s, 1400s or 200 BC?"

Does the study of tree rings not assist in that endeavour?

 

[willbird]

Climate change is responsible for wildfires? Put down the bong, Dude. Wildfires have been encompassing the earth for 100,000 years, long before “climatologists” began their horse-hockey.

The wildfires are much worse now than ever before; they're Mega-fires. The average temperature of the Earth is higher now than it has been for 100,000 years, and the CO2 levels have increased to match. There have been new high temperature records set for the last three years here, and the daily temps in Phoenix have been 18 degrees above normal until a few days ago. 2024 was the warmest year in recorded history.

I find it fascinating that while 97% of climate scientists -- that is, people who devote their entire lives to studying the climate, 40 or more hours a week, for decades -- agree that the climate is changing due to human activity, a lot of people refuse to believe that and decide, after looking at a few web pages that confirm their bias, that it must be a hoax. Tragic event such as this, more devastating hurricanes, eroding coastlines, etc., are going to continue to plague the world and instead of looking at the big picture naysayers will blame "The environmentalists" or "the left" or whatever. It's part of what makes this so tragic.

Climate change is responsible for wildfires? Put down the bong, Dude. Wildfires have been encompassing the earth for 100,000 years, long before “climatologists” began their horse-hockey.

This thread was to express empathy and support for CA-fornians yet typically the Hall Monitors chime in to refute culpability of ignorant policies. Some things never change.

Annoyed that once again chirpers refuse culpability. I’m out-

Cantakerous Cal strikes again -- politicizes, criticizes, and splits! Pick up the bong dude!

This has devolved to politics. But if you do not understand people try talking to them, more like ask questions and listen, there is potential to  learn something :-).

Bill

[jgger]

"How do you know what fires were like in the West during the 1700s, 1400s or 200 BC?"

Does the study of tree rings not assist in that endeavour?

 

It would if the trees weren't all burnt up. I mean just look at the Sahara Forrest!🙈🙉🙊

[vfourfreak]

"How do you know what fires were like in the West during the 1700s, 1400s or 200 BC?"

Does the study of tree rings not assist in that endeavour?

 

It would if the trees weren't all burnt up. I mean just look at the Sahara Forrest!🙈🙉🙊

" In fact, some 1.8 billion trees dot parts of the West African Sahara and Sahel deserts and so-called sub-humid zone, a previously uncounted bounty that overturns previous assumptions about such habitats, researchers say."

https://phys.org/news/2020-10-barren-millions-trees-dot.html

[carnivorous chicken]

In the face of horrible tragedy, it's weird to politicize something right off the bat, trying to assign blame to the "other side." It's a bit sad, really.

I wanted to buy new points for my bike. I found a set at 8 into 4 dot com, and they were super cheap. I went to the SOHC4 forum to see what people said, and 97% of the people, who are experts in the field, said don't get them, they are crap, your bike won't run right. But 3%, including a guy with a user name eight2four and another named atetwofor said that they were great. I am also a cheapskate, so the fact that they were cheaper than OEM appealed to me. Plus I googled it -- did my research -- and I found some info on cheapskate websites that said they were great, and the 97% are wrong. So I bought them, and despite the evidence, poor acceleration and impossible to time, I continue to claim that the 97% were wrong and that 3% are right, because how did anyone know what points were like 100,000 years ago? When people point this out, I'm just going to bluster and call people names because the louder I speak the more correct I must be.

I'm continually baffled by people who decry the younger generation for not being able to think critically.

Articles in the NYT today about artistic and architectural treasures lost, including Will Rogers' house. Tragic.

[scottly]

"How do you know what fires were like in the West during the 1700s, 1400s or 200 BC?"

Does the study of tree rings not assist in that endeavour?

 

It would if the trees weren't all burnt up. I mean just look at the Sahara Forrest!🙈🙉🙊

The California Sequoias and Redwoods are possibly that old, but the Methuselah Bristlecone Pine in eastern California is believed to be over 4500 years old.

"Bristlecone pines are a small group of trees that reach an age believed by many scientists to be far greater than that of any other living organism known to man -- up to nearly 5,000 years.

The oldest of these near prehistoric pines is a tree nicknamed Methuselah (after Methuselah, the longest-lived person in the Bible). Methuselah is located in the Inyo National Forest and sits in a remote area between California's Sierra Nevada range and the Nevada border.

To protect the oldest of all living things from vandalism, Methuselah precise location is undisclosed by the U.S. Forest Service
. Over 4,789 years old, the age of Methuselah was determined by the measurement of core samples taken in 1957."

[BenelliSEI]

In the face of horrible tragedy, it's weird to politicize something right off the bat, trying to assign blame to the "other side." It's a bit sad, really.

I wanted to buy new points for my bike. I found a set at 8 into 4 dot com, and they were super cheap. I went to the SOHC4 forum to see what people said, and 97% of the people, who are experts in the field, said don't get them, they are crap, your bike won't run right. But 3%, including a guy with a user name eight2four and another named atetwofor said that they were great. I am also a cheapskate, so the fact that they were cheaper than OEM appealed to me. Plus I googled it -- did my research -- and I found some info on cheapskate websites that said they were great, and the 97% are wrong. So I bought them, and despite the evidence, poor acceleration and impossible to time, I continue to claim that the 97% were wrong and that 3% are right, because how did anyone know what points were like 100,000 years ago? When people point this out, I'm just going to bluster and call people names because the louder I speak the more correct I must be.

I'm continually baffled by people who decry the younger generation for not being able to think critically.

Articles in the NYT today about artistic and architectural treasures lost, including Will Rogers' house. Tragic.

Very good points!

[jlh3rd]

"How do you know what fires were like in the West during the 1700s, 1400s or 200 BC?"

Does the study of tree rings not assist in that endeavour?

 

It would if the trees weren't all burnt up. I mean just look at the Sahara Forrest!🙈🙉🙊

" In fact, some 1.8 billion trees dot parts of the West African Sahara and Sahel deserts and so-called sub-humid zone, a previously uncounted bounty that overturns previous assumptions about such habitats, researchers say."

https://phys.org/news/2020-10-barren-millions-trees-dot.html

this is the one I like. Found mile/s under greenland ice....how 'bout that global cooling/warming/cooling/......well, you get the idea.....

[scottly]

Fossilized leaves found in Alaska, from when the earth was much warmer, showed evidence of a high amount of C02. The leaves absorb the gas through pores, called stomata, and the higher the concentration of C02, the fewer amount of stomata are required by the plant.

[simon#42]

i am surprised that in an area known for fires houses are made from wood . could this be an opportunity to rebuild the houses to a better standard ?

[newday777]

i am surprised that in an area known for fires houses are made from wood . could this be an opportunity to rebuild the houses to a better standard ?

Most of the houses were old. Like 100 years old.......
You gonna make people tear down their old house and build a new house to you new safety spec because your saving money laying off firefighters, not fixing the old pipes underground that are way beyond their life span and requiring no cutting of trees and dead brush to protect animals and fish?

[simon#42]

i am surprised that in an area known for fires houses are made from wood . could this be an opportunity to rebuild the houses to a better standard ?

Most of the houses were old. Like 100 years old.......
You gonna make people tear down their old house and build a new house to you new safety spec because your saving money laying off firefighters, not fixing the old pipes underground that are way beyond their life span and requiring no cutting of trees and dead brush to protect animals and fish?

no mate i was asking if it was not wise to rebuild the houses that have been destroyed to a better standard that might stop this happening again

sorry if this post does not fit in with the political axe grinding

[RAFster122s]

Over 10 thousand structures burned, some of those are multiperson apartments as well as businesses and other industrial facilities. But the bulk of those lost was dwellings.

Insurance companies have been dropping people's fire insurance the past several years and Californians have been using California's FAIR company established to provide fire insurance to those whom have lost it. Many dropped their policy due to cost as well. Californians also need earthquake insurance...
Many companies have stopped writing policies in California due to high loss rates and in some cases those companies left California.

FAIR claims they will have enough money for the claims, so that is promising.

California is a state unlike most in the US and Californians largely do not think like most Americans and my dealings with and discussions with them support that in my experience. Politics aside, it is one of the highest taxed and most expensive places to live in the United States. Usually a nice place to vacation if your stay is not too long as the coastal areas and mountains are beautiful and the climate allows agriculture to provide a lot of Americas fruits and many of her vegetables.

Californians have a bad reputation for driving and not one state that is adjacent to California views California in a positive manner, I know many who will rant and rave about how terrible California drivers are and just mentioning them will set them off into a rant. It is really bizarre.  They are highly aggressive drivers by and large and cut people off or change lines or force their way into your lane with no blinkers or warnings. When I see bad driving while out and about in Tucson often, more than 1/2 the time it is a California plate responsible. Tucson and Phoenix are known for some really bad driving habits, so calling out Californians really is calling the kettle black but to have noticable worse driving habits in cities known for bad driving, that really is saying something in my mind.

I have driven in many places and in many big cities and have only had a couple accidents in my 62 years. I agree with the assessments of articles about Tucson drivers.

It is tough to separate the fires from the infrastructure when reports of infrastructure failure are present in News reports and discussions of the underlying cause of the fires and the fuel they burn start being discussed.
It turns political by many and no one will win those arguments. Neither will one side convince the other of anything. It isn't productive.

The housing that will be built back will be built to current code, unfortunately that doesn't build extreme fire conditions resistant structures. They will be built as cheaply as possible but still cost a fortune and won't be super energy efficient nor in many cases well built. They will have to comply with anchoring and earthquake resistant structural methods, but that won't protect much from landslides....another common problem in the LA area.

2018 and 2019 saw a lot of wildfires in California, won't be the last year for reports of raging wildfire, nor will it be for landslides or earthquakes.

Prayers for California and especially those affected and those fighting the fires.
The devastation by natural disasters lasts far longer than the initial disaster. Case in point is the dead are still being discovered in Western NC from Hurricane Helene and The rebuild and resheltering of those affected is still happening as many are still living in tents and snow and Ice are present in Western NC mountains in winter.

Prayers for California.

[jgger]

Simon, as was said earlier, most of the houses were older homes so they were not even up to today's standards. Just the fact that there are so many "old" houses" illustrates that this fire was not a typical or normal fire. There is very little that can be done to make a house able to withstand an inferno like this one. The fire codes that are in place for residential units are to allow time for the occupants to get out, not to be a bunker. Buildings and materials are required to be tested and rated before even approved in the permitting process.

Anything that is going to be rebuilt will be built with all the current standards in place. But even these would not be able to stand for long against a simular inferno like we just witnessed.

I have worked in the building industry here in So Cal for over 50 years and have seen many changes in the fire codes over time. Even different municipalities have codes that go beyond the minimum state standards depending on the risk of fire level in the area of the projuct. These standards are usually kicked up several notches after a disaster like this one, just to cover azzes. Two cities I have worked in are like this, one is Santa Ana after a very deadly apartment fire, the other is Laguna Beach after a fire in the hills and canyon that are simular to Pacific Palisades.  At least Laguna Beach did not have to contend with the Santa Ana winds in their episode. Saving buildings in a fire is a secondary objective,  the first objective is saving lives. Given the early loss of life count from this fire, many people were blessed.

[simon#42]

thanks for the nice clear explanation jgger i understand much better now

[scottly]

However, politics is THE prime reason this is occurring. Nothing to do with ax grinding, just the truth.
Ca. is the highest mis- managed state in our country, New York #2.
As is the "woke" bs in england.

You don't know what you are talking about. The fish story is BS, and to even mention Joe Rogan makes me cringe. You keep bringing politics and blame into the subject, which will not be tolerated. If you continue to do so, you will be banned from the forums for a yet to be determined period. Consider this an official warning.

[scottly]

 I’m out-

Good.

[scottly]

Simon, as was said earlier, most of the houses were older homes so they were not even up to today's standards.

Jim, I remember a fire in SoCal where wooden shake shingle roofs caused the fire to spread rapidly, sometime in the '70s IIRC? After that, I think there were new restrictions on roofing materials?

[jgger]

Yes Scott,  wood roofs have pretty much become a thing of the past, either by code or insurance companies refusing to coverage. Fire sprinklers are be comming a very common requirement in residential now too.