Author Topic: OK, almost done. Need some input!  (Read 1194 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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OK, almost done. Need some input!
« on: January 13, 2025, 08:07:09 PM »
 :P

Been working almost all day every day these last few weeks on My CB500/550 book. At least the weather's been cooperating: it's too #@$! cold out there to do anything in the garage except for taking [whatever I missed] back apart for another picture. I think I have most of the bases covered, using My CB750 Book as the guideline, but dropping out some things that ultimately didn't need to be there so the cost will be less, I hope? That book has covered the globe, now, which was...more than expected, by a stretch!

What CB500/550 things do you think need to be in this book that aren't well covered elsewhere?

Honda's manuals aren't terrible, but they were never great about details, either. I think I have those missing things covered a little better, at least in the engines. I've used the 022/a carbs as the example simple-method teardown/clean/reassemble without the entire disassembly, because nowadays that breaks the (very expensive) rubber seals on the throttle linkage - and it's not required to remove those just to clean in the slots. The same process applies to the other 5 versions of carbs found on these bikes.

I don't list a lot of vendors for the parts within the pages, because of those listed in My CB750 Book, several are gone now. The internet is the best source for parts now.

Electrical is covered in some detail, including (I think) every circuit on each of the bike types. This isn't one schematic, but a breakout by function, like Lights, Alternator, Power Wiring, and the like - with wire colors noted on the drawings. Honda's schematics are complete, but in their 50th regeneration of someone else's scanned-in, not-enough-resolution images on the Internet they are almost illegible now: I used a 5x and 10x magnifier to follow the wiring lines on the best ones in Honda's old manuals because they were shrunk from a 30"x42" page into the 6"x8" manuals' format to begin with, and went downhill from there!  :-\
...and I'm an Electrical Engineer type, too...

In the carbs' section I don't try to "fix" the 1977-78 PD carbs: they have no parts sources except for some of the rubber seals and the occasional discovery of NOS parts somewhere, so that task is becoming more fruitless every year.. The book isn't about resto-ing the scarcest of bikes, but about making a good ride out of the ones you can put together.
The way the carbs work, including the PD carbs, is covered, and with cutaway-style drawings to help understand what is different from non-PD to the PD carbs - and 'why'.
I've explained the alternator issue with some detail so builders can make smart decisions about power needs and load requirements.
A full teardown-inspect-rebuild cycle is covered for the engine(s), both types.
Some detail about the suspension and its needs and/or good points is there, and some simple, effect improvements are outlined.
The brakes are the brakes: no special mods are shown there, either: that could be an endless upgrade for cafe' bikers to play with.
Discussion about how modern tires affect things ("Why does the bike lean over so far on the sidestand now?", etc.) is included.

There is some explanation about HOW the CB500/CB550 became like it is, including market forces and legal issues that were foremost at the time of the bike's development and introduction, to help understand how it got like it is, and what can be done to make it better now that the politics is out of it. This particular motorcycle came at a time when the whole world was changing re: motor vehicles in general and motorcycles in particular, in some countries. Those things affected this machine more than most others that I know.

I don't cover such things as the aftermarket toys like wiring kits, accessory lighting, cafe' work or the like: this is about stock machines. Those "other" things could be gone tomorrow and make whole sections of the book irrelevant and useless to future rider/builders - so, it's about Honda's design and build. From there the builder can decide how it will go.

The Transistor Ignition IS covered, though, because it has brought so many of these bikes back to the pavement. That's my fault, so I owed up to it.
It also made me realize how many of them I have lost count of, now...

Drop me your ideas?
If I can make it work within the bounds of financing the thing, I'll see about getting it in there.

My CB750 Book turns a chunk of its proceeds over on each royalty to help keep these webpages alive, so it has helped everybody here: so will this one. I can't think of a better way to do that! :D
« Last Edit: January 14, 2025, 11:47:20 AM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Kelly E

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2025, 08:17:12 PM »
Include any tips/tricks for removing and installing the carbs. I've done it several times on my 74' CB 550K and it hasn't gotten any easier. ;D
Never Give Up - Never Surrender

The Rust Bros. Garage Collection
1974 Honda CB 550 K0                                            1971 MGB/GT
1975 Honda CB 400F Super Sport                          1972 MGB/GT
1977 Kawasaki KZ 1000 LTD                                   1985 GMC S15
1978 Kawasaki KL 250
1980 Suzuki GS 1100E
1982 Honda CB 900F Super Sport
1983 Honda CB 1100F
1984 Honda VF 700S Sabre
1984 Honda VF 1000F Interceptor
1990 Moto Guzzi 1000 Le Mans
1994 Kawasaki Concours ZG 1000A9
2005 Harley Davidson Fat Boy

Offline HondaMan

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2025, 08:28:13 PM »
Include any tips/tricks for removing and installing the carbs. I've done it several times on my 74' CB 550K and it hasn't gotten any easier. ;D
Got that one covered!
:)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline newday777

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2025, 08:31:38 PM »
Well Mark I'm sure it will be a great wealth of information. I don't know enough about the 500/550 myself to add what might be needed. I've only riden a 77 K model I had bought for my 1st wife and only kept the oil changed and adjustments going before I headed west that October.

Will you be taking kick start pre-orders to help fund the publishing?
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2025, 08:54:07 PM »
A board across the back of the carb throat and ratchet strap can provide a strong source of reseating the carbs. The challenge is getting the air box boots to fit in tight spaces...few custom tools to finagle lips of boots in place , patience, and heat gun help.

Hopefully you addressed the carbs run best on stick bike up to a certain level of mod . But understanding what that threshold is could be helpful for those trying to squeeze more power out of the motor. Brent Waller's race bike shows the capability on tap if you employ MReich's skills for head work and custom pistons, etc. Buy a reference to that might be enough for those exploring those areas. The race bike motor probably isn't a great streetable motor given it spends it time in upper revs on a track.

The brake system's selection of brake pads to improve braking performance would be something I would like to see addressed, if dual discs and semi sintered pads are the way to go or if you do or do not benefit greatly. Let's face it, the front suspension is weak unless you go with gold emulators and even then the chassis and suspension benefit from simple things like fork braces, if you can find them.

Depends on where you want to go with the book, of merely a stock rebuild without tips and methods to improve output and performance then the book has limited value to me.
I don't mind my bike looking stock, but it is nice for it to be better than factory stock.

650 camshaft or similar discussion on what it buys you and what various hard welded regrinds provide in general terms would be beneficial. If you go with a hard welded camshaft you also need to hardweld your rocker arms, things like this are important to know. You don't see that detail listed when you peruse webcam's site, or I missed it if it is there...

Knowing which gasket brands are to be avoided if buying and engine kit might be useful data, given today's state of parts... Or, the challenges that a Vesrah kit has over an NE or vice versa...might want to mention the challenges you will have if you put a Vetter front fairing on, gonna need increased rated front springs and heavier oil.

Are you going to touch on replacement rims and spokes? Granted we cannot all find bikes with great condition rims and other chrome parts...

With some bikes you have to accept the limitations imposed by the starting point you begin with...fork ears being a very limiting factor these days as to my knowledge there are no aftermarket sources and NOS is rarer than hens teeth.
Got any tricks for straightening fork ears?

Presume you address the weakness of the early rocker arm cover going eccentric with wear...
 Only choice is replace with good early cover or get a complete 77-78 cover...


« Last Edit: January 13, 2025, 08:55:52 PM by RAFster122s »
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline bryanj

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2025, 09:09:16 PM »
Because i rarely touch 750 now i havent bought that book but i assume(yes i know) you cover the criticality of getting both points gap and timing spot on and the idiosyncrasities of the cam chain tensioner.
The crankcase wear of the 500 which seems way less on the 550, recast with bigger clearance?
The "usual" gearbox problems with centre selector and the early mods to the gear/neutral detent.
Clutch slip and possible cures along with pushrod breakage.

That about all i can think of at moment Mark

Best of luck with the book
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Deltarider

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2025, 01:05:42 AM »
I don't know if this is of any importance for your project, but here is some info. My CB500K2-ED was first registered in february 1977. Assembly probably in 1975-76. This model, was traded - a grey import - in continental Europe only and shares quite some parts with the CB550K2, which was traded in the US in 1976.
Maybe this model was to empty Honda's shelves of left over CB500 engines. Years later Honda had the same idea, when they launched a CB500K3 (only ca 4200 assembled) when the almost identical CB550K3 was already on the market.
I've bought my K2 in April 1980. Frustrating in the first 20 years was that I only had the Haynes manual and many things just did not 'match' like suspension - both front- and rearshocks, swingarm and electrics. When I finally laid my hands on a paper copy of the CB500K2-ED, -F, -G parts list, a whole new world opened for me. Not until some 10 years ago, I finally got the apropiate wiring schemes, which I attach hereby. Note the -ED type has its wiring scheme named: UK-European type, in spite of the model was never traded in the UK.
The Owner's Manual https://www.honda4fun.com/dwnload/Owners-Manual/CB500-75-Owners-Manual.pdf has some strange errors: on page 66 Air Cleaner Servicing is also about a filter for crankcase gas recirc. No CB500K2 ever had that. Ours still had the same airfilter case previous CB500 models had. On page 72 Clutch adjustment: the clutch depicted is wrong. Our K2 still had the clutch adjustment LH side, be it that the clutch adjuster had been modified.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2025, 03:32:53 AM by Deltarider »
CB500K2-ED Excel black
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2025, 02:03:26 AM »
CMSNL has rendered us a great service in so far that, once logged in, it is very easy to find out what part was also on other Honda bikes. It works a treat. I can imagine you would like to use this. Unfornately they have hidden the model I referred to in my previous post, but... it's there. Here is how it works. Type CB500K2 in their search window and you'll be presented two options (see pic below). Then opt for GENERAL EXPORT, as CMSNL renamed the models -ED, -F, -G. The differences between the submodels are minor, but there are some. CMSNL has been very thorough indeed. Whenever there is a difference, CMSNL points it out. For example: the French model had the #100 main jets and lacked the airduct over the airfilter case, in contrast to the German and ED models which had the airduct and the #78 main jets.
CMSNL goes so far that they even list the crossheads only  the French model had, where all other models had the sidereflectors.  :D
CB500K2-ED Excel black
"There is enough for everyone's need but not enough for anybody's greed."

Offline denward17

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2025, 05:02:12 AM »
Maybe some info on crank/rod bearing measurement and replacement?

Offline MRieck

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2025, 05:39:01 AM »
Maybe some info on crank/rod bearing measurement and replacement?
Procedure is identical to the 750.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2025, 06:03:19 AM »
Wheel building. A few pages to encourage people to try it themselves. Three “spoons”, spoke wrench and an inexpensive truing/balancing stand….  Nothing makes a bike stand out more than a shiny set of new spokes on a polished rim. They usually get neglected (or worse: totally powder coated over).

A clear explanation, with a few good photos would be nice. Congratulations on getting there. I’m sure it will be great!

Offline MauiK3

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2025, 06:42:44 AM »
I think I will need to purchase a copy even though I don't have a half liter CB. Dangerous.
1973 CB 750 K3
10/72 build Z1 Kawasaki

Offline newday777

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2025, 06:55:19 AM »
I think I will need to purchase a copy even though I don't have a half liter CB. Dangerous.
Yup.....
I've been thinking about getting a 500/550 for the past 5 years but I don't have room!!!
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline Stev-o

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2025, 07:00:25 AM »
Hey HM...I have a 550F and will be buying a copy in support and it will go on the shelf next to your 750 book.

You prolly covered this but worth mentioning:

- the "rubber band" trick when installing the head cover.
- a nice upgrade for the early models is the '77-78 head cover with the pinned rockers.

Thx for all you do to help keep these old bikes running and on the road!



'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline MRieck

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2025, 09:02:40 AM »
I think I will need to purchase a copy even though I don't have a half liter CB. Dangerous.
Yup.....
I've been thinking about getting a 500/550 for the past 5 years but I don't have room!!!
I see those bags of pellets Stu.....I use the same ones. ;D
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline newday777

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2025, 09:50:11 AM »
I think I will need to purchase a copy even though I don't have a half liter CB. Dangerous.
Yup.....
I've been thinking about getting a 500/550 for the past 5 years but I don't have room!!!
I see those bags of pellets Stu.....I use the same ones. ;D
Tractor supply had them in place of their normal bags. I didn't notice much difference I'm how they burned and they said they were from the same supplier, New England Forest products.
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline HondaMan

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2025, 11:02:06 AM »
I don't know if this is of any importance for your project, but here is some info. My CB500K2-ED was first registered in february 1977. Assembly probably in 1975-76. This model, was traded - a grey import - in continental Europe only and shares quite some parts with the CB550K2, which was traded in the US in 1976.
Maybe this model was to empty Honda's shelves of left over CB500 engines. Years later Honda had the same idea, when they launched a CB500K3 (only ca 4200 assembled) when the almost identical CB550K3 was already on the market.
I've bought my K2 in April 1980. Frustrating in the first 20 years was that I only had the Haynes manual and many things just did not 'match' like suspension - both front- and rearshocks, swingarm and electrics. When I finally laid my hands on a paper copy of the CB500K2-ED, -F, -G parts list, a whole new world opened for me. Not until some 10 years ago, I finally got the apropiate wiring schemes, which I attach hereby. Note the -ED type has its wiring scheme named: UK-European type, in spite of the model was never traded in the UK.
The Owner's Manual https://www.honda4fun.com/dwnload/Owners-Manual/CB500-75-Owners-Manual.pdf has some strange errors: on page 66 Air Cleaner Servicing is also about a filter for crankcase gas recirc. No CB500K2 ever had that. Ours still had the same airfilter case previous CB500 models had. On page 72 Clutch adjustment: the clutch depicted is wrong. Our K2 still had the clutch adjustment LH side, be it that the clutch adjuster had been modified.

Thanks for the info, Delta! I know a little bit about the odd CB500K for Europe, but having only seen 1 of them here in real life, haven't had the experience with the unique issues those might have - and, Honda's info about them, like you've said, is pretty skewed and incomplete. The one I saw has essentially a CB550K2 with CB500-style cylinders and head, and had the same carbs as the American 550, the -022 type.
What  carbs does yours have?

I'll see if I can print out (and blow up?) those schematics to make sure I've got those differences covered. I have some from the Honda manuals I have, but they are just one copy that includes the Euro types. Knowing Honda, I suspect there's more wiring details omitted, much like what happened with the 750 in those days.

The difficulty with covering all of the "breather box tubes" and other smog-related controls on this bike is: there were many more versions in real life than what shows up in any Honda parts fiche today, and I have never seen documented details about those "other" parts anywhere. this was due to the political forces that were attacking Honda (and other Japanese car/bike makers) at the time: with the world in an economic slump then, the Japanese had devalued their currency and their businesses and banks joined tightly together to make unusual things happen, for which Japan suffered in the 1980s and 1990s under international retaliations - but it worked and let them survive. The cars and bikes from Japan in those days are both sketchy on many details: the 750 mostly escaped it because it was Honda's sales backbone then due mostly to the sheer numbers sold in the USA, so it got good attention as compared with the other bikes. Like most things political, this was later denied and hidden - but it was also true... ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2025, 11:14:37 AM »
CMSNL has rendered us a great service in so far that, once logged in, it is very easy to find out what part was also on other Honda bikes. It works a treat. I can imagine you would like to use this. Unfornately they have hidden the model I referred to in my previous post, but... it's there. Here is how it works. Type CB500K2 in their search window and you'll be presented two options (see pic below). Then opt for GENERAL EXPORT, as CMSNL renamed the models -ED, -F, -G. The differences between the submodels are minor, but there are some. CMSNL has been very thorough indeed. Whenever there is a difference, CMSNL points it out. For example: the French model had the #100 main jets and lacked the airduct over the airfilter case, in contrast to the German and ED models which had the airduct and the #78 main jets.
CMSNL goes so far that they even list the crossheads only  the French model had, where all other models had the sidereflectors.  :D

Yeah, they sure have gone to the mat for the SOHC4 riders at CMSNL! I've bought many parts from them in 'thanks' and also because, in sandcast 750, they were one who actually found some of the real NOS parts. I have a whole collection of their little winking mechanic-on-a-keychain they send with each order. :)

Lately a bunch of riders have contacted me from France with SOHC4 questions, which has been historically silent (to me) on the topic. I think they might be joining in the party, now? There are 6 Transistor Ignitions on 750s there now, a recent development.

Thanks for the tip on how to bring up the different models, too: I didn't know that! They have some good programmers doing their website, too. And according to their online parts listings, I bought the last existing groove final-drive bearing for the mid-stage 750 sandcasts when I did that engine a year or so ago. That one hasn't repopulated again.

Did you get a better mainjet for your 500? that #78 had to be limiting your top speed...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2025, 11:23:06 AM »
Because i rarely touch 750 now i havent bought that book but i assume(yes i know) you cover the criticality of getting both points gap and timing spot on and the idiosyncrasities of the cam chain tensioner.
The crankcase wear of the 500 which seems way less on the 550, recast with bigger clearance?
The "usual" gearbox problems with centre selector and the early mods to the gear/neutral detent.
Clutch slip and possible cures along with pushrod breakage.

That about all i can think of at moment Mark

Best of luck with the book
Yep, you named it: the 550 has a little more space above the chain. It also seems (but I haven't cross-measured it) that the angle of the chain is a little more downward toward the primary shaft, which might be where that space came from (it has the little wear indicator cast on the upper case, too). While I have the 500 engine lying around, I'll have to soon give the 550 back to its owner, so I had to put that one back together and didn't do a direct measure to find out.

One good thing I found in this 500 engine: the owner was (or knew) a machinist who made him a custom clutch pushrod that solved 2 problems at once. It is a slight bit shorter than the OEM version so that the clutch lifter could ride on a new portion of its ramp, and he welded the steel ball onto the end of the shaft to make it easier to "get" when needed. The shaft is thicker than OEM, but turned down on both ends where it needs to fit inside something, so I documented it in the book. I might have a discussion with my machinist who makes swingarm collars for me to see how much some of these might cost? It's made from stainless steel, too: that seems extravagant...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2025, 11:35:20 AM »
Wheel building. A few pages to encourage people to try it themselves. Three “spoons”, spoke wrench and an inexpensive truing/balancing stand….  Nothing makes a bike stand out more than a shiny set of new spokes on a polished rim. They usually get neglected (or worse: totally powder coated over).

A clear explanation, with a few good photos would be nice. Congratulations on getting there. I’m sure it will be great!

I thought of that in my 750 book, but in the end it hit the cutting-room floor because it wasn't 750-specific (it was about 30+ pages of stuff). Originally that book was just black-and-white, but everyone wanted color, so the costs got so high I had to cut back on lots of pages to meet a budget for it (which it still didn't quite meet...). I've tinkered with the idea of a 'generic' book for those sorts of things: wheel lacing/truing/balancing/tire ON-OFF, how to read sparkplugs (per engine types, like 1, 2, 3, 4, 6-cylinder engines), how to free up stuck nuts/bolts, lots of those things. What I see around here is a whole generation of young-uns who would LIKE to do this stuff, but their dad didn't do any of it, so no one in the family learned how. I feel badly for them: they're the ones buying car-repair insurance because they can't find the oil drain plug to save their lives. They line up at the local Grease Monkey shops every weekend here. That's got to make them feel powerless about controlling their own financial futures(?).

I recently went shopping for new rims for my 750. With the prices, I'm thinking about finding a set of old Lester mags now, instead? Holy smokes!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2025, 12:12:49 PM »
A board across the back of the carb throat and ratchet strap can provide a strong source of reseating the carbs. The challenge is getting the air box boots to fit in tight spaces...few custom tools to finagle lips of boots in place , patience, and heat gun help.

Hopefully you addressed the carbs run best on stick bike up to a certain level of mod . But understanding what that threshold is could be helpful for those trying to squeeze more power out of the motor. Brent Waller's race bike shows the capability on tap if you employ MReich's skills for head work and custom pistons, etc. Buy a reference to that might be enough for those exploring those areas. The race bike motor probably isn't a great streetable motor given it spends it time in upper revs on a track.

The brake system's selection of brake pads to improve braking performance would be something I would like to see addressed, if dual discs and semi sintered pads are the way to go or if you do or do not benefit greatly. Let's face it, the front suspension is weak unless you go with gold emulators and even then the chassis and suspension benefit from simple things like fork braces, if you can find them.

Depends on where you want to go with the book, of merely a stock rebuild without tips and methods to improve output and performance then the book has limited value to me.
I don't mind my bike looking stock, but it is nice for it to be better than factory stock.

650 camshaft or similar discussion on what it buys you and what various hard welded regrinds provide in general terms would be beneficial. If you go with a hard welded camshaft you also need to hardweld your rocker arms, things like this are important to know. You don't see that detail listed when you peruse webcam's site, or I missed it if it is there...

Knowing which gasket brands are to be avoided if buying and engine kit might be useful data, given today's state of parts... Or, the challenges that a Vesrah kit has over an NE or vice versa...might want to mention the challenges you will have if you put a Vetter front fairing on, gonna need increased rated front springs and heavier oil.

Are you going to touch on replacement rims and spokes? Granted we cannot all find bikes with great condition rims and other chrome parts...

With some bikes you have to accept the limitations imposed by the starting point you begin with...fork ears being a very limiting factor these days as to my knowledge there are no aftermarket sources and NOS is rarer than hens teeth.
Got any tricks for straightening fork ears?

Presume you address the weakness of the early rocker arm cover going eccentric with wear...
 Only choice is replace with good early cover or get a complete 77-78 cover...




Most of these things are covered, although I shyed away from the install-the-carbs thing after I followed someone's idea here of using a strap wrench which also broke a fin, requiring the engine come back out and down for the repair. :(
Granted, it was a750, but still....
It might be that since I've spent so many years doing the 750 that I don't find the 500/550 all that hard to re-carb, by comparison. What IS tricky on the Mid-Four, though, is installing the engine breather hose and carb bowl vent tubes (if you don't have them preinstalled with the set) because there isn't enough room to do those once the racked are re-racked. To get enough room to work on it is pretty simple, though: remove the upper and lower 6mm bolts inside the airbox and let the air plenum float, then pull the whole thing back away from the engine: this yields about 2cm of space to work in, so it is much easier to reinstall then. I roll the carbs up from below, into their rubber tubes - which are pre-greased (both carbs and tubes) to make it happen easier. While I didn't try this one myself, another version is to pre-install the manifolds onto the carbs at the bench, then at the bike (with the airbox pulled back) they could just "roll up" onto the studs of the engine. I think that one would need to have the O-rings glued in, though?

I addressed some of the big-bore options more than the cams, because in my experience there's only 1 aftermarket cam I use - because I and all my friends of the day would also tour with the bikes - because it holds up so much better than the others: that's the Megacycle cam. They also mimic the OEM hardness, so there is no need to change rockers, it will run (and tour) just fine with the OEM parts. I have removed too many damaged "other" cams and scrounged too many rockers over the decades to point someone in another direction, in both the 750 and the Mid-Fours. So, I kept it at the "champagne" level instead of recommending other things that might not meet my personal gold standards. (Yeah, I'm picky, opinionated, and right about the things I do to/with these bikes. :D ). Today especially, with China in almost everything sold, it is REAL hard to get good parts - and not just for these bikes. Chinese parts have marginalized even my own once-trusty Explorer, too.

And, you're right about a race motor on the street: even the mighty 750, if set up for racing, becomes something I wouldn't try to ride in traffic. The bores are too small for the high-rev cams to make streetable stoplight-to-stoplight torque, and the engines overheat if run at the RPMs needed to keep them perky in traffic. So, even the porting shown here is kept to a streetable level, where it will actually help instead of hinder.

Carb jetting is an issue, too: if the engine is run below hot-cam-alive RPM it runs rich (especially these engines with the long intake runners), which quickly fouls plugs, which gets the bike parked...so, it's not helpful for the uninitiated to tell them to go for 12,000 RPM cams only to find out the bike is not useful anymore. I've done that too many times myself in my other life! Although, it DOES make for cheap 500/550 bikes to be found, "ran when parked"... so maybe there's an upside?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2025, 01:33:18 PM »
Wheel building. A few pages to encourage people to try it themselves. Three “spoons”, spoke wrench and an inexpensive truing/balancing stand….  Nothing makes a bike stand out more than a shiny set of new spokes on a polished rim. They usually get neglected (or worse: totally powder coated over).

A clear explanation, with a few good photos would be nice. Congratulations on getting there. I’m sure it will be great!

I thought of that in my 750 book, but in the end it hit the cutting-room floor because it wasn't 750-specific (it was about 30+ pages of stuff). Originally that book was just black-and-white, but everyone wanted color, so the costs got so high I had to cut back on lots of pages to meet a budget for it (which it still didn't quite meet...). I've tinkered with the idea of a 'generic' book for those sorts of things: wheel lacing/truing/balancing/tire ON-OFF, how to read sparkplugs (per engine types, like 1, 2, 3, 4, 6-cylinder engines), how to free up stuck nuts/bolts, lots of those things. What I see around here is a whole generation of young-uns who would LIKE to do this stuff, but their dad didn't do any of it, so no one in the family learned how. I feel badly for them: they're the ones buying car-repair insurance because they can't find the oil drain plug to save their lives. They line up at the local Grease Monkey shops every weekend here. That's got to make them feel powerless about controlling their own financial futures(?).

I recently went shopping for new rims for my 750. With the prices, I'm thinking about finding a set of old Lester mags now, instead? Holy smokes!

Rims at vintagecb750.com are $140-180.

Offline carnivorous chicken

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2025, 03:44:30 PM »
There is some explanation about HOW the CB500/CB550 became like it is, including market forces and legal issues that were foremost at the time of the bike's development and introduction, to help understand how it got like it is, and what can be done to make it better now that the politics is out of it. This particular motorcycle came at a time when the whole world was changing re: motor vehicles in general and motorcycles in particular, in some countries. Those things affected this machine more than most others that I know.

In this discussion, are you covering the changes made to the different models and perhaps some of the "whys" behind them? Not just cosmetic -- seats, gaiters, reflectors, tanks, blinkers, etc., that differed over the 550's run but also changes to the carbs (as you've mentioned), the F vs K 4-1 vs 4-4 (And the changes to the 4-4 set up), and engine, how it affected performance (good or bad), etc. Although cosmetic stuff isn't necessarily particularly technical, it might be of interest in a book that covers the bikes thoroughly. The topic of paint color (and codes) comes up here pretty frequently for all of the SOHC4s, including which year and which markets got which colors. That might be worth a page. Just my 2 cents.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2025, 04:40:23 PM »
There is some explanation about HOW the CB500/CB550 became like it is, including market forces and legal issues that were foremost at the time of the bike's development and introduction, to help understand how it got like it is, and what can be done to make it better now that the politics is out of it. This particular motorcycle came at a time when the whole world was changing re: motor vehicles in general and motorcycles in particular, in some countries. Those things affected this machine more than most others that I know.

In this discussion, are you covering the changes made to the different models and perhaps some of the "whys" behind them? Not just cosmetic -- seats, gaiters, reflectors, tanks, blinkers, etc., that differed over the 550's run but also changes to the carbs (as you've mentioned), the F vs K 4-1 vs 4-4 (And the changes to the 4-4 set up), and engine, how it affected performance (good or bad), etc. Although cosmetic stuff isn't necessarily particularly technical, it might be of interest in a book that covers the bikes thoroughly. The topic of paint color (and codes) comes up here pretty frequently for all of the SOHC4s, including which year and which markets got which colors. That might be worth a page. Just my 2 cents.
Thanks for the input!
I've covered some of those things, where they mattered to the overall function (or repairs) of the bike itself. The details like front-end changes due to Honda cheapening the cost of making it (changed fork gaiters to simple dust covers) are mentioned here and there, but I don't want it to sound derogatory because Honda was just trying to stay alive in those days: they even curtailed their racing program after the 1970 Daytona win to save some Yen then. Most of those "changes" we know in these SOHC4 bikes were due to political pressures that were being aimed at Japanese motor products then, and not just from the USA. That industry probably suffered more from that than from economic forces in those days. That's one of the reasons we sometimes have struggles to convince Honda to keep making certain vital parts for us (like points, condensors, specialized oil pump parts and stuff like that) because there is a certain "memory" at Honda of how the USA (in particular) treated Honda from about 1972 to 1988 or so. It wasn't pretty, and I don't blame Honda: I blame stupid politicians here.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Deltarider

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Re: OK, almost done. Need some input!
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2025, 04:45:46 AM »
Yeah, they sure have gone to the mat for the SOHC4 riders at CMSNL! I've bought many parts from them in 'thanks' and also because, in sandcast 750, they were one who actually found some of the real NOS parts. I have a whole collection of their little winking mechanic-on-a-keychain they send with each order. :)

Lately a bunch of riders have contacted me from France with SOHC4 questions, which has been historically silent (to me) on the topic. I think they might be joining in the party, now? There are 6 Transistor Ignitions on 750s there now, a recent development.

Thanks for the tip on how to bring up the different models, too: I didn't know that! They have some good programmers doing their website, too. And according to their online parts listings, I bought the last existing groove final-drive bearing for the mid-stage 750 sandcasts when I did that engine a year or so ago. That one hasn't repopulated again.

Did you get a better mainjet for your 500? that #78 had to be limiting your top speed...
Yeah, I like CMSNL's consistency. When I used their function to see which other Honda models had such and such part, I noticed that CMSNL will not list other models, when the part involved is a repro, an 'alternative part' (indicated by a P added to the partnumber). Very prudent of them. I once had the guy who started CMSNL, on the phone. It was in the late 80s when he was still doing his then limited business from the attic.
For some reason our CB500 models don't need a bigger main jet than the #78 one. The Germans and I have experimented with running #100 main jets and the air duct lifted. It brought nothing but extra intake noise. All tests in continental Europe showed that ours delivered the CB500s full potential (top speed 179km/h (112mph)). You may check the graph below of my run on the Dyno. I had 40,6 HP on the rear wheel and managed a top speed of 185 km/h, which is theoretical ofcourse, as you will never reach that in riding wind.
I never solved why we had the #78 jets. Actually when I entered this forum for the first time, it was to find out if anyone knew more. Some say, it's about a better quality gasoline, but I don't know. On the other hand, it would at least compensate for paying the highest prices in the world  ;). Some others suggested the air duct* allows a better flow than a gauze. I dont know.
* The air duct was there to meet German's demand on intake noise. (see their official TÜV report below)

« Last Edit: January 15, 2025, 05:02:00 AM by Deltarider »
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