Author Topic: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?  (Read 507 times)

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Offline MLW9110

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1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« on: January 14, 2025, 11:43:08 AM »
I have a 19777 CB550F that I have been working on. I have a problem now with it sputtering on acceleration and at mid-range rpm settings.

The carbs had pods on them when I got the bike. I had it running ok but it was hard to start when cold and idle was unstable.

I rebuilt the carbs and put an original air cleaner housing on. The bike starts easily and idles well now.

After getting through some ignition system issues, including new points and condensers that failed shortly after installation, I have been trying to troubleshoot a sputtering or bogging, (what's a better term to use?), mostly on acceleration but also at mid-range throttle openings. Otherwise the engine runs strong.

Carb kit came from the same vendor that the faulty points and condensers came from. The idle mixture needles were different than the ones that came out of the carbs. They have a hole in the end and side of the needle not present in the old ones. The new main jet emulsion tubes have fewer holes in the sides than the old tubes.

I put in an electronic ignition to eliminate the points and condenser issue. Timing and advance are set properly. Plugs and plug caps are new.

Valves are adjusted and within spec. Carbs are balanced using gauges.

Carbs are Keihn 069A
The parts I replaced in the carbs were not original.
Main needle D274
Slow Jet #38
Float needle seat 1.8
Main Jet 98

I searched the forums here and found a discussion about the main jet O-rings being supplied as part of the kits currently available having a smaller OD than the original.

It does make sense to me that air or fuel bypassing the jet O-ring might cause the problems I'm having. I could not find a reference here for specs and availability of the proper O-ring.

Anyone know if replacing the O-rings is a good thing to try and what a good source for proper O-rings might be?

Could the new emulsion tubes be part of the problem?
After the trouble I had with the points and condensers, I'm suspicious of the new parts that came in the carb kit.

Offline newday777

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2025, 03:29:27 PM »
"Carb kit came from the same vendor that the faulty points and condensers came from. The idle mixture needles were different than the ones that came out of the carbs. They have a hole in the end and side of the needle not present in the old ones. The new main jet emulsion tubes have fewer holes in the sides than the old tubes."

Did you get them from 4into1.com??
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2025, 04:51:03 PM »
Changing brass from original or carb brand to whatever is in current kits is almost always a mistake. 4 into 1 is known to sell cheap Chinese junk and their service after the sale for any legitimate issues is non-existent. Avoid them
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2025, 07:19:55 PM »
The mainjet O-rings are size 3.9x1.2mm if you don't have PD carbs. Don't be surprised to find them expensive: it is a custom size. I can look, not sure how many I have left from my last custom-built run of them. Usually a 3.8x1.2mm will fit, or even the 3.9x1.1mm. The typical 1.0x4.0 that comes in non-OEM carb kits do NOT work, they don't seal the hole and let extra fuel percolate up past the jet. It also does that irregularly, so the engine response is erratic. The only carb kits I have seen that have the right O-rings are the ones from South Sound Honda and CMSNL.com: those come from Honda.

My best advice: look at the model numbers on your carbs and see if you can find another set like them with the OEM parts that you are missing. To date, none of the aftermarket carb kits I've seen since 2001 for these bikes (750 included) have the right brass, so it becomes a long guessing game to try to get close to mixing right again. As hard as it is to change the jets in those carbs, the extra $$ for proper brass is worth every cent, IMHO!

You can also sub in earlier carbs, unless your State is too picky about that for smog laws (States vary widely on this topic). Most emissions centers are not smart enough on these bikes to ever check it and get it right, plus Honda didn't document those records for the public to see - even the DOT.
 
Your '77 version probably have carbs that have a model number like x46 or PD46 (or PD-something else) and an idle-mix screw sticking straight down from the front of the carb. Those do not have changeable idle jets, they are set at (#38 + screw setting), and they have effect on the engine performance up to 2500 RPM. After that it rolls to the mainjet system, which is your emulsifier tube, mainjet size, and slide needle. At least the slide needles' notch can be changed pretty easily compared to some other of these bikes.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline jonda500

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2025, 11:49:42 PM »
Do you have the snorkel (air cleaner cover)?
Does it still have the original F exhaust system?
If so I would suggest you get the original honda emulsion tubes and needles (#273004) that your 069A carbs had. My 550F didn't run right until I got the original Honda snorkel, emulsion tubes and needles. I was lucky enough to find the oem brass in a set of 069A carbs that I scored on ebay.
John
ps -and put the original solid mixture screws back in!
 
Remember that an ignoramus is only someone who doesn't know something you just learned yesterday!

A starter clutch thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,122084.0.html
1972 CB500K1 original 4 owner bike
1972 CB500K1 returned to complete/original condition
1975 CB550F built from parts - project thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,149161.msg1711626.html#msg1711626
197? CB500/550 constructing from left over parts
1998 KTM 380 (two stroke) recent impulse buy, mmmm...

Offline dave500

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2025, 01:09:40 AM »
use your old mixture screws without those bleed holes,you cant enrichen enough with those holes.

Offline MLW9110

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2025, 12:56:45 PM »
"Did you get them from 4into1.com??"

Yes

Offline newday777

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2025, 01:12:03 PM »
"Did you get them from 4into1.com??"

Yes
Hopefully you have thr original Keihin brass that came in the carbs to clean and put back in.
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline Ozzybud

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2025, 01:20:34 PM »
Have you used only Ethanol free gas?
If your bike was stored with a tank partially full it will grab the water in the atmosphere and it will settle at the bottom. If your fuel looks like milk you have a problem.i have seen this in friends cars and bikes. Friends don't let friends use ethanol infused fuel in their classics!

Start with the simple stuff first.
1976 Z50A YELLOW
1970 CT70 BLUE
1971 CT70H ORANGE
1972 CT70H GREEN
1973 CL200 BLUE
1973 CB350F RED
1975 CB360T RED
1975 CB400F BLUE
1975 CB550 ORANGE
1976 CB750F RED

Offline MLW9110

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2025, 01:42:52 PM »
"The mainjet O-rings are size 3.9x1.2mm"
Thank you for the O-ring info.

"My best advice: look at the model numbers on your carbs"
"Your '77 version probably have carbs that have a model number like x46 or PD46"
069A is the only marking I can find on the carbs.




Offline MLW9110

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2025, 01:45:34 PM »
Changing brass from original or carb brand to whatever is in current kits is almost always a mistake. 4 into 1 is known to sell cheap Chinese junk and their service after the sale for any legitimate issues is non-existent. Avoid them

I may put the brass that was in the carbs back in but I suspect they aren't the original parts.

Offline MLW9110

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2025, 01:50:28 PM »
Do you have the snorkel (air cleaner cover)?
Yes.
Does it still have the original F exhaust system?
Not sure. It's got 4-1 pipes but the muffler isn't original.

ps -and put the original solid mixture screws back in!
I will!

Offline MLW9110

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2025, 01:51:31 PM »
use your old mixture screws without those bleed holes,you cant enrichen enough with those holes.

Will Do. Thanks!

Offline MLW9110

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2025, 01:53:22 PM »

Hopefully you have the original Keihin brass that came in the carbs to clean and put back in.

I have the removed brass but I'm not sure it's original.

Offline newday777

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2025, 01:53:30 PM »
Changing brass from original or carb brand to whatever is in current kits is almost always a mistake. 4 into 1 is known to sell cheap Chinese junk and their service after the sale for any legitimate issues is non-existent. Avoid them

I may put the brass that was in the carbs back in but I suspect they aren't the original parts.
There should be a stylized K on the Keihin brass
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline MLW9110

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2025, 01:59:04 PM »
Have you used only Ethanol free gas?
If your bike was stored with a tank partially full it will grab the water in the atmosphere and it will settle at the bottom. If your fuel looks like milk you have a problem.i have seen this in friends cars and bikes. Friends don't let friends use ethanol infused fuel in their classics!

Start with the simple stuff first.

Gas is fresh. Ethanol free gas is available but too far away. I don't want to start a discussion on ethanol here!

Offline MLW9110

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2025, 02:04:45 PM »
Changing brass from original or carb brand to whatever is in current kits is almost always a mistake. 4 into 1 is known to sell cheap Chinese junk and their service after the sale for any legitimate issues is non-existent. Avoid them

I may put the brass that was in the carbs back in but I suspect they aren't the original parts.
There should be a stylized K on the Keihin brass

No K on any of the brass.

Offline newday777

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2025, 02:06:52 PM »
Changing brass from original or carb brand to whatever is in current kits is almost always a mistake. 4 into 1 is known to sell cheap Chinese junk and their service after the sale for any legitimate issues is non-existent. Avoid them

I may put the brass that was in the carbs back in but I suspect they aren't the original parts.
There should be a stylized K on the Keihin brass

No K on any of the brass.
Sometimes you have to clean the brass to find it
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2025, 02:49:03 PM »
"The mainjet O-rings are size 3.9x1.2mm"
Thank you for the O-ring info.

"My best advice: look at the model numbers on your carbs"
"Your '77 version probably have carbs that have a model number like x46 or PD46"
069A is the only marking I can find on the carbs.





That much info is a wonderful thing!
Those carbs are the 'normal' type, so you have a good chance of sorting it out (not without some tinkering, though). The PD-style carbs are a straight-up vertical learning curve for the uninitiated. :)

With aftermarket brass, the parts are usually too lean. They seem to be patterned after the more popular Mikuni carbs: just for the record (to help understand 'why') their jets use both different numbering and different tapers in the flow paths - even different screw threads!

With some of the [popular for some reason] Keyster branded kits, the jet numbers are not the same as the Keihin numbers: they average around 7% to 10% lean for the numbers on them.
For example, your carbs likely came with Keihin's #78 (Euro) or #90 (North America) mainjets, which would be #83 or #97 (respectively) in Keyster parts.
If you have K&L parts, they are calibrated similar to the Keyster parts.

So, after you've [patiently] reinstalled your original jets, run (if your weather allows?) the engine 10 miles or so and then pull the plugs and show us the color: they will be either very dark or very white, depending on the numbers of your jets. You're aiming for something on the light side of tan (or grey, depending on the kind of gasolines you have).

If they are very white, you need jets with bigger numbers, and vice-versa with the dark plugs. And, a 5% change is quite a bit: this is a small-bore, small-displacement engine, so a little makes a lot of difference. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline jonda500

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2025, 03:19:54 PM »
Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the US model '77 550F (and all 550F models) came with 069A carbs with #98 main jets?? Original post says it is a 550F!
John
Remember that an ignoramus is only someone who doesn't know something you just learned yesterday!

A starter clutch thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,122084.0.html
1972 CB500K1 original 4 owner bike
1972 CB500K1 returned to complete/original condition
1975 CB550F built from parts - project thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,149161.msg1711626.html#msg1711626
197? CB500/550 constructing from left over parts
1998 KTM 380 (two stroke) recent impulse buy, mmmm...

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2025, 03:26:24 PM »
I've serviced 1977 550K and 550F here in the Denver area that had PD carbs on them in the past. That doesn't mean they came with the bike, though: I was just tasked with making them run better. ;)

I think I have only ever seen 1 of the 1978 550K bikes, though. Mostly I see them when they are slathered in oil from a "rebuild" that didn't include machine work.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2025, 06:02:00 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Oddjob

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2025, 04:12:11 PM »
The bike had pods on, that usually means someone has altered the carbs to try and get them to run right with pods on, not always successfully I may add. One of the things they alter is the needle clip position, usually going up a notch or 2 to get more fuel into the mid range. Have you checked where the clip is?

Although you are far away from me I may be able to help. I’ve got a couple of banks of 069a carbs apart to break for spares, as I own a 500 I’ll probably never use the brass out of them so I may have 4 original needles, 4 original emulsion tubes ( the 069a tubes have an extra hole in them and they go smaller as they go up the tube, different from the 500 tubes for instance) I may also have pilot and mains, 38 and 98 respectively, it’s also possible I’ll have some mixture screws.

PM me if you’re interested and I’ll get a price worked out. Can’t promise I have everything but I just may.

Offline MLW9110

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2025, 07:43:27 PM »
Needle clips are in second notch from top.

Offline Oddjob

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2025, 04:24:58 AM »
how many notches does the needle have?

Offline MLW9110

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Re: 1977 CB550 Sputtering?
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2025, 10:07:46 AM »
how many notches does the needle have?

4