Topic: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post

[bowhunter]

I posted this a couple days ago. It was there long enough for 12 people to view it and the disappeared?
Is this a form of censorship by the moderators? I never got a message from the MODS to tell me it was unacceptable.
What gives? This part of the site is for "ANYTHING" not having to to do with SOHC's! I didn't think there was anything
in the post that was inflamatory per the forum rules. I also did not get a PM from one of the moderators to tell me where
I broke the rules. Can someone enlighten me?
 In any case, I'm posting it again! And HERE IT IS



Some things to remember when discussing the War in Iraq

1.There were 39 combat related deaths in Iraq in the month of January.
2.In Detroit, Michigan there were 35 murders in the month of January. That one American city is about as deadly as
   the entire war-torn country of Iraq.

Many people say that President Bush shouldn't have started this war. He didn't. It was started
by Mid-East terrorists, with the first bombing of the World Trade Center in 1991. In addition remember
these facts:
   A. FDR led us into World War II.
   B. Germany never attacked us. Japan did.
           From 1941-1945, over 450,000 American soldiers died, an average
           of 112,500 per year.
   C. Truman finished that war and started one in Korea.
        North Korea never attacked us.
        From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an verage of 18,334 per year.
   D. John F. Kennedy started the Viet Nam warin 1962.
        Viet Nam never attacked us.
   E. Johnson turned Viet Nam into a quagmire.
       From 1965 to 1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.
   F. Clinton went to war in Bosnia, without UN or French consent.
       Bosnia never attacked us.
       He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter 3 times by the Sudanese
       and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.
   G. In the years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has liberated 2
        countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled Al-Qaida, and put nuclear inspectors
        in Libya, Iran, and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a tyrant who slaughtered
        over 300,000 of his own people.

   The Democrats are complaining how long the war is taking, but in actuality, it took
less time to take Iraq, than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound.
That was a 51 day operation.
   
   It took less time for the 3RD Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the
Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kenedy to call the police after his car sank at Chapaquidick!

   It took less time to take Iraq, than it took to count the votes in Florida!!!!!

   Some people still don't understand why military personnel do what they do for a living. This exchange
between Senator John Glenn and Senetor Howard Metzenbaum is worth reading. Not only is it a
pretty impressive impromtu  speech, but it's also a good example of one man's explanation of why
men and women do what they do for a living. This is also a sad but typical example of what some,
who have never served in the military, think of our military.
   Senetor Metzenbaum (speaking to Senetor Glen):
"How can you run for the Senate when you've never held a real job?"
   Senetor Glen:
"I served 23 years in the US Marine Crps. I served through 2 Wars, I flew 149 combat missions.
My plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire on 12 differant occasions. I was in the Space Program.
It wasn't my checkbook, Howard; it was my life on the line. It was not a 9 to 5 job, where I took time off
to take the daily cash receipts to the bank."
   " I ask you to go with me, as I went the other day, to a veteran's hospital and look at
those men, with their mangled bodies, look them in the eye, and tell THEM they didn't hold a REAL job!
   You come with me to the Space Program at NASA, and go, as I have gone, to the widows
and orphans of Ed White, Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffe.
And you look those kids in the eye and tell them that their DADS didn't hold a job!
   You go with me on Memorial Day and you stand in Arlington National Cemetary, where
I have more friends buried than I'd like to remember. You watch those waving flags, You stand there, and you think about
this Nation, and you tell ME that those people didn't have a jof?
   What about you?

   For those who don't remember, during WW II , Howard Metzenbaum was an attorney representing the
Communist Party in the USA

   If you can read this, Thank a teacher.
   If you are reading this in English, Thank a Veteran!

[bill440cars]

              Why isn't there a REPLY button on that post? There is so much truth there and so much to think about, that it isn't even funny. Funny how some can jump on a band wagon with out really stopping to do some simple thinking and comparing notes. Some folks have voiced opinion about us not belonging in disturbances overseas but, I have always tried to relay the fact that I'd rather us be over there than have them over here fighting us and now we have seen some of happen. I may not agree totally about how things are done over there but then again, I'm not totally knowledged on those things either and I'm retired with 28 years of service which started in Aug 1966. Our military deserves our respect, admiration and backing for what they do. I have never been in combat but spent a good portion of 2 years doing Nuclear Alert Duty, having alerts at all different times of the day and night and never knowing when it was going to happen or knowing if it was the real thing for a short bit of time. First thing we were told was, "If A Plane Moves Out Of It's Spot, You Might As Well Dig A Hole And Kiss Your Ass Goodbye Because We're Going To Be Involved In A Nuclear War!" You think that wouldn't rattle your cage! I hope you (anyone) never finds out how it's feel.
               bowhunter should be commended for that post, IMHO

                                              Retired SFC Van Pelt (Bill) (this is where a patriotic smiley should be)

[burmashave]

Good gosh, what has happened here?  This seems very much not like this forum.  Certainly, much worse has been said in the open forum.  Bowhunter's post is reasoned, and the only people who could be offended would be Kennedy, Kennedy, Metzenbaum, Truman, et. al.

Here's something I think is a pertinent, yet sad, fact related to Bowhunter's thread:

More US servicemen have died in motorcycle accidents than have died in Afghanistan since 2001.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/02/06/iraq/main1282737.shtml
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/10435217/detail.html

[edit 24 March: corrected "Afghanistan" above]

[bill440cars]

       I don't understand it either burma. It doesn't make sense why the previous thread would have been deleted and also why there is no "REPLY" button so that replies could be made. What gives?

       Also burma, I don't doubt your added info, even if you didn't have backup for it.


                                              Later on, Bill

[kghost]

I am also curious why that post is locked.

Have reported it to the moderators and asked why it it locked.

Other views contrary to the confict in Iraq have been expressed here without censorship. 

[mrbreeze]

 

[CrisPDuk]

Well I've just read it, and whilst I disagree with the sentiment of some of it, I am failing to comprehend why it needed to be locked   If any thread in this section derserves to be left open for discussion it's that one.

Re: the second part - John Glenn's speech - I whole-heartedly agree with that

Several members of my have, and still do, serve in what's left of the UK's armed forces, and I would never dream of telling them or their colleagues that they don't have a proper job

Every lawyer I have ever met on the other hand, really could have done with going out and finding himself gainful employment

[Terry in Australia]

I don't agree with any of it. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfawitz fabricated a BS excuse to invade Iraq, and it's certainly not a better place for their meddlesome intervention. Nor is the world a safer place to be, for all the long-winded rhetoric about Al Queda being crippled, blah-de-blah-blah.

Now the collective genius of the coalition's governments can't work out how the hell they're gonna pull out their forces without accepting total defeat. If they hadn't been in such a hurry to hang Saddam before he could spill the beans about the US Governments involvement in his destruction of the Kurds and Shiites, they could have handed the whole mess back to him and told him to sort out his shiit, but it's too late now, they're buggered, and poor bloody American kids are being killed at a rate of 30+ a month.

With 30 years in the army you can guess where my sympathies lie, but the situation in Iraq has nothing to do with the performance of our military, and everything to do with incompetent, corrupt  politicians inventing a reason to invade Iraq for no discernible reason. Many more innocent American kids will die horrible needless deaths while those criminals in Washington sit on their hands waiting for a political miracle, as they did between 1962 and 1975 in another country that posed no threat to the US. Some people never learn from their mistakes.................. 

[Rocking-M]

Ditto what Terry said.

[holysmokes]

as on other sites, secret censorship is very prevelant

goes to show what free speech is all about

on one site i questioned 'free speech'  and was told its up to the people paying to decide what subjects and replies constitute free speech

i guess this place is the same...if you complain too much,  big brother will annihalate your membership and send you into the trash.. i ve seen it happen before


a war started with fake/false evidence in order to invade a country is very wrong

we have for our prime minister george bush"s bum boy, steven harper





House votes U.S. troops out of Iraq by Sept. 2008

By BETH GORHAM The Canadian Press

WASHINGTON — U. S. Democrats forced a dramatic clash with President George W. Bush over his war policy Friday by passing a bill requiring American combat troops to come home next year.

The House of Representatives, in a close vote of 218- 212, passed an emergency spending bill that funds the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan but demands most U. S. soldiers leave Iraq by Sept. 1, 2008, at the latest. The bold move earned a swift and blunt response from Bush, who said the House “ abdicated its responsibility."

The president said he’ll veto any bill with a deadline that reaches his desk. “ Democrats in the House, in an act of political theatre, voted to substitute their judgment for that of our military commanders on the ground in Iraq," Bush said.

“ Today’s action in the House does only one thing: It delays the delivery of vital resources for our troops," said Bush, surrounded by veterans and military families at the White House.

Democratic party leaders maintained they’re simply following the wishes of Americans who want the war to end and elected Democrats to a majority on Capitol Hill in last fall’s midterm elections.

The legislation is a “ giant step" toward ending the Iraq war and concentrating on Afghanistan “ where the war on terrorism is," said House Leader Nancy Pelosi.

“ The American people, their voices, have been heard," she said. “ We know that they have lost confidence and faith in the president’s conduct of this war."

“ The American people do not support a war without end and neither should this Congress."

The Senate could vote as early as next week on its version of the spending bill with the goal of withdrawing combat troops by March 31, 2008.

But the efforts of both houses of Congress constitute a considerable longshot. A two- thirds vote in each is required to override a presidential veto. As the war enters its fifth year, Bush wants more time for his plan to quell violence in Baghdad by sending 21,500 more U. S. combat troops and thousands more support soldiers.

“ We’re beginning to see some signs of progress," he said. “ Yet to score political points, the Democratic majority in the House has shown it is willing to undermine the gains our troops are making on the ground."

White House spokesman Tony Snow told reporters Democrats are conducting an irresponsible “ charade."

“ Right now what Democrats are doing is they’re wasting time at a time when the clock is ticking," he said.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


   

[bill440cars]

        I don't agree with a war that goes on & on either. I was surprised and then got concerned when Bagdad was taken so easily. I AM all for settling things as much as possible BEFORE it gets to the states. Saddam was a terrorist and a murderer who didn't deserve to be free, much less the leader of a country. He had so many of his own people tortured and murdered. There is a time when someone should step up and do something. How many times should we allow others to do a 9/11? True, we started out after Osama but, we wouldn't have had to do that if the job hadn't already been bungled by Clinton (I'm not proud to say that Clinton was an Arkansan either. I say WAS because he and Hillary vacated our state as soon as he could).
        This thread should go along just fine, as long as we agree to disagree. I am glad, by the way, to see that we are discussing this on the original post.

                                                           Latetr on, Bill      

[Uncle Ernie]

Clinton may have neglected to persue BinLaden, but so did W. Bush in Afganistan.  Bush senior failed to go after Saddam when he had the chance.  BTW- where did the rebels in Afganistan get weapons and training?  Where did the Contras get THEIR weapons and training.  Hint; NOT RUSSIA.  This war is just like Viet Nam and many people called it.  We did NOT invade Irag to prevent or punish terrorists. Terrorism has increased as a result of invading a country who's leader was having a good time poking a stick at Bush.  IF this country invaded Iraq for humanitarian reasons, why aren't we meeting the situation in Darfur head on?  Can anyone guess?

The gentleperson who started this post sounds reasoned, but he is not. 

I support the people of the military.  I do not support the scadal ridden, lying administration that sees fit to ignore the Constitution when it's convenient.

It is NOT unpatriotic to ask questions or dissent.  Ask the forefathers of this country if you don't believe me.  The right to bear arms was granted to protect against an unjust government.  However- after experiencing the late '60s, I realize the government would have no problem firing back on unarmed protesters. 

Sorry I read this.  I'll be more careful next time.

[bowhunter]

Sorry guys. I was the one who locked the post. I didn't realize that it would prevent replies.
I was highly PO'd when the first post was deleted without being informed why ,by the deleter?

I also don't completely agree with how this war has been conducted. Again, if the generals in the
first Iraq war had been listened to, there would not have been the necessity for a second.

Bowhunter

Air Force Viet Nam Veteran

[kghost]

Yeah that and april 15 is rolling round.

[DammitDan]

Some things to remember when discussing the War in Iraq

1.There were 39 combat related deaths in Iraq in the month of January.
2.In Detroit, Michigan there were 35 murders in the month of January. That one American city is about as deadly as
   the entire war-torn country of Iraq.

There's also about 900,000 people living in Detroit.  Can you imagine the numbers of KIA if there were 900,000 American troops in Iraq?  And I'll bet you of those 35 murdered, it wasn't by a sniper bullet or an IED.  I'll bet you there weren't 2 other guys that made it out alive with a severed off arm or severely burned face.  There's more to the numbers than numbers...  people always forget that part.

Many people say that President Bush shouldn't have started this war. He didn't. It was started
by Mid-East terrorists, with the first bombing of the World Trade Center in 1991. In addition remember
these facts:
   A. FDR led us into World War II.
   B. Germany never attacked us. Japan did.
           From 1941-1945, over 450,000 American soldiers died, an average
           of 112,500 per year.
   C. Truman finished that war and started one in Korea.
        North Korea never attacked us.
        From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an verage of 18,334 per year.
   D. John F. Kennedy started the Viet Nam warin 1962.
        Viet Nam never attacked us.
   E. Johnson turned Viet Nam into a quagmire.
       From 1965 to 1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.
   F. Clinton went to war in Bosnia, without UN or French consent.
       Bosnia never attacked us.
       He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter 3 times by the Sudanese
       and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.

Most of this is just factual evidence taken out of context.  There was good cause to enter into each of these conflicts (although by today's standards some of the causes may have been "questionable").  It's pretty much without a doubt that the cause that we went into Iraq (the WMDs) never existed, and evidence that they did exist was fabricated just so we COULD invade Iraq.  Now people try to change the cause from an enforcement mission to a liberation mission.  No, that's not how it works.

   G. In the years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has liberated 2
        countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled Al-Qaida, and put nuclear inspectors
        in Libya, Iran, and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a tyrant who slaughtered
        over 300,000 of his own people.

Has he?  Funny, doesn't seem that ANY of those countries are under our diplomatic control.  In fact, it seems that the diplomatic weight of CHINA has swayed the opinions of Iran and North Korea infinitely more than our swaggering president has, and Libya specifically listens to Saudi Arabia and Egypt, not us.

   The Democrats are complaining how long the war is taking, but in actuality, it took
less time to take Iraq, than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound.
That was a 51 day operation.
   
   It took less time for the 3RD Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the
Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kenedy to call the police after his car sank at Chapaquidick!

   It took less time to take Iraq, than it took to count the votes in Florida!!!!!

Sure the combat war took a phenomenally short amount of time, but how many Americans were killed during the shooting war, vs. those who were killed during the occupation and attempt to pacify the rebellious sects?  This is what the Democrats are "complaining" about...  It's not about the number of days, but rather the number of American soldiers who are being killed every day by our president's indecision.

   Some people still don't understand why military personnel do what they do for a living. This exchange
between Senator John Glenn and Senetor Howard Metzenbaum is worth reading. Not only is it a
pretty impressive impromtu  speech, but it's also a good example of one man's explanation of why
men and women do what they do for a living. This is also a sad but typical example of what some,
who have never served in the military, think of our military.
   Senetor Metzenbaum (speaking to Senetor Glen):
"How can you run for the Senate when you've never held a real job?"
   Senetor Glen:
"I served 23 years in the US Marine Crps. I served through 2 Wars, I flew 149 combat missions.
My plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire on 12 differant occasions. I was in the Space Program.
It wasn't my checkbook, Howard; it was my life on the line. It was not a 9 to 5 job, where I took time off
to take the daily cash receipts to the bank."
   " I ask you to go with me, as I went the other day, to a veteran's hospital and look at
those men, with their mangled bodies, look them in the eye, and tell THEM they didn't hold a REAL job!
   You come with me to the Space Program at NASA, and go, as I have gone, to the widows
and orphans of Ed White, Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffe.
And you look those kids in the eye and tell them that their DADS didn't hold a job!
   You go with me on Memorial Day and you stand in Arlington National Cemetary, where
I have more friends buried than I'd like to remember. You watch those waving flags, You stand there, and you think about
this Nation, and you tell ME that those people didn't have a job?
   What about you?

   For those who don't remember, during WW II , Howard Metzenbaum was an attorney representing the
Communist Party in the USA

Rubbish.  I'm sure now you'll say that everyone who opposes the will of our current administration also feels the same way that this senator does (which I must admit, ALSO sounds like it was taken out of context).  I have only the greatest respect for the men and women in our our volunteer military.  I can only imagine what it is like to be in Iraq.  And I imagine it to be Hell.  Absolute Hell on Earth.  And I only WISH to have them all return safely, on the next flight out of Baghdad.  But I know that's not going to happen, because our current president's (and administration's) pride is preventing the decision.  So, while I continue wishing, I will also continue to see the death tolls mount, the number of wounded and maimed increase...  It seems the only way for my wish to come true is to vote Democrat next election and hope for the best, because the American people are no longer in control of our government.

[heffay]

i'm not sure why this thread is locked... i have not read it yet but, i'll get back to you if i find anything out.

[Glenn Stauffer]

Sorry guys. I was the one who locked the post. I didn't realize that it would prevent replies.
I was highly PO'd when the first post was deleted without being informed why ,by the deleter?

I've checked with all of the moderators and no one deleted your first post.  Now, unless you did so inadvertently, it may be that someone around here has more permissions than they should and I am actively looking into that possibility.

Regardless of all that, if there is anyone who believes there to be some sort of 'secret censorship' around here, you couldn't be more mistaken.  The moderators of this forum have been exceptionally careful to allow free discourse within the open forum within certain published boundaries.  And anytime we feel the need to lock a thread or delete a post, we are very open about it - most often there will be a post to the thread explaining our actions.  In the absence of that, there will be a PM to specific individuals.

Please check your facts before making accusations.

Enjoy the boards, Glenn SOHC/4 #3

[burmashave]

I created a separate thread this morning for my post below because this thread had been locked again.  Now that the thread is open, I'm moving this post here:

As for the topic of debate, I say, "Let the games begin!"  On the other hand, I think I'll sit this one out from here onward. 

Regarding, the locking of this thread, etc., there was good explanation as to how the thread became locked.  This only stands to reason because we have the best mods around.  They may suffer maladies brought on by old SOHC/4's; however, ego is not generally an issue for them, nor is a need to screen opinions contrary to theirs.  I can deal with the fact that there is some non-zero chance that they will make mistakes. 

As for the bleating about censorship, please remember that Article 1 guarantees **freedom from governmental censorship of speech.**  That is, our freedom of speech would be violated if the government itself decided to censor our forum.  Non-governmental actors have great latitude in limiting the speech within their organizations, and they control speech that is transmitted by their organizations.  Think of it this way; CBS news has no responsibility to allow me air time on the evening news so that I could voice my "free speech."  The fact that CBS prohibits my speech in their forum does not constitute a violation of free speech.  The same is true of organizational control of speech in this forum.  We are not owed the right to post whatever we want here.

[Uncle Ernie]

hehehehehehe   Glenn said "discourse" !

[BobbyR]

   D. John F. Kennedy started the Viet Nam war in 1962.
        Viet Nam never attacked us.
   E. Johnson turned Viet Nam into a quagmire.
       From 1965 to 1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.
   
        

I think quagmire is the word. You can not imagine how much this looks like Vietnam. We are bogged down in a mess with no good way out. If we wanted to hunt down terrorists, you hunt them quietly surgically and strike terror in them. When The Iranians raided Embassies they also took Russian hostages. The head Mullah recived a package from the KGB with his cousins balls and a list of all his other relatives. The did not send MIGS and Gunships. The Russians were released.

When you quote KIA numbers, they are abstract. When you haul the bodies out they are not as abstract.   

[Uncle Ernie]

This is why I'd like to know how he comes tho all this. Any why.  Kennedy didn't start the Viet Nam war at all.  Is that some kind of revisionist history?  Johnson made it a quagmire? How, please?
The only difference now is that the public isn't spitting at the GIs coming home and calling them "baby killer".   But it's kind of funny how TV was all over Viet Nam and you don't see much now.

Bow-dude- please shine a light on your thinking.

[BobbyR]

Kennedy sent the first "Advisors" to Vietnam. His letter reveal that he had second thoughts and was contemplating a quiet and graceful exit. He died before he could do that. Johnson had some delusion that by adding troops he could push them back and hold them to a Korea type truce. 

[CrisPDuk]

Many more innocent American kids will die horrible needless deaths while those criminals in Washington sit on their hands waiting for a political miracle, as they did between 1962 and 1975 in another country that posed no threat to the US. Some people never learn from their mistakes.................. 

Therein lies the answer Terry, from the point of view of several parties with considerable influence over the US Government, Viet Nam wasn't a mistake

It was the biggest money making venture since the World War 2 So a few kids died in the course of their profiteering, what's an omlette without broken eggs

[mrblasty]

 

[Terry in Australia]

Very good Mr B, now just imagine if George Snr had married Lorena Bobbit? No f*cking problems in Iraq, ol' Saddam would still be doing his nasty thang, (and who'd really care?) and there'd be 3000 Mom's and Dad's in the US not grieving every day over that useless war on common sense that took their children away.................