Topic: Degreeing Camshaft... need a little help

[dakeddie]

I've read all the old posts on how to dialing in a camshaft and all the links that were on those posts, so I think I know what I'm doing...

My problem is that when I get the LC of the intake to the correct valve, the exhaust is off by 10deg.  Is my camshaft bunk?

It's a Webcam 63a and the cam card goes like this:

|                              IN               EX
|     Valve Lash         .004"          .004"
|     Lobe Centre       103            103
|     Opens            27 BTDC     53 BBDC
|     Closes            53 ABDC     27 ATDC
|
|     Valve timing is checked with zero valve lash @ .050" of lift.

I've found true TDC by using a dial gauge on the #1 cylinder and measuring the degrees when the piston is 1" below on both sides of TDC.  The mark on the case is only off by a degree or so.

When setting the camshaft based on the Intake I got OPEN=21, CLOSE=49.  LC = (CLOSE - OPEN)/2 + 90 = 104deg.  I measured this at .050" lift with tappets set just a hair more than finger tight.  But for fun I also measured it at .046" with the valve lash at .004"... I got the same numbers.

Now when I check the exhaust, I get OPEN=38, CLOSE=31.  LC = (OPEN - CLOSE)/2 +90 = 93.5deg.  How could it be so far out?

I really hope someone can find where I'm going wrong.  I dont' want to have to send my camshaft back... I want to ride!!!!

Here are a couple of pics of my setup:

[dakeddie]

Another:

[scondon]

   Did you set the valve lash on the exhaust finger tight before measuring? Sorry if that's a stupid question, it's just that everything else in your post checks out OK and those exhaust #'s are definitely way off so I'm thinking of what could be different in your measuring set-up between intake and exhaust valves.

    I would expect a degree or two difference on either the open or close #(example: close 55deg ABDC instead of 53deg on timing card) but the lobe centers should match up. I'll be degreeing in my own 63a grind tomorrow and will post results to this thread.

[HondaMan]

Another question: did the cam builder specify the .050" measuring point? Honda has always specified it at .040" (actually, .03937", for you purists).

[dakeddie]

Yeah, I tried checking the exhaust both ways too... with and without lash, but the results were the same.

And I just checked #4 to see if it was the same as #1 and it is.

But as I was writing this it occurred to me that I might have the wrong grind and that I should measure the features that I can and compare them to the values of the other webcam grinds.  And.... I found the lift to be .360" instead of .370"... and the duration @.050" is 21+49+180 = 250deg.  These values match a Webcam 41 grind.  I guess I'll have to send it back.  bummer.

[scondon]

Ackkk!  that is a bummer to find out at this stage    Is the grind # stamped on the box it came in?

[dakeddie]

Another question: did the cam builder specify the .050" measuring point? Honda has always specified it at .040" (actually, .03937", for you purists).

Yeah... it says .050" on the cam card.  I webcam uses the American standard, not the metric one.

Ackkk!  that is a bummer to find out at this stage    Is the grind # stamped on the box it came in?

It is scrolled into the cam sprocket mount shoulder as 63a and the box is marked 63a too, and the cam card is for the 63a.  It is an odd manufacturing defect, but I could see how it could slip through.

[scondon]

Another question: did the cam builder specify the .050" measuring point? Honda has always specified it at .040" (actually, .03937", for you purists).

Yeah... it says .050" on the cam card.  I webcam uses the American standard, not the metric one.

Ackkk!  that is a bummer to find out at this stage    Is the grind # stamped on the box it came in?

It is scrolled into the cam sprocket mount shoulder as 63a and the box is marked 63a too, and the cam card is for the 63a.  It is an odd manufacturing defect, but I could see how it could slip through.

    I Forgot about the marking on the shaft itself. Mine has 2. 06  scrawled below the 63a mark. I assume this is month/date of manufacture(Feb,2006). Don't know how they line up the work at Webcam, but if they do them in batches I would think that yours would not be the only one marked/ground incorrectly. This doesn't help anything, just thinking out loud.

   If you got yours at Dynoman I'm sure they'll help get it sorted and a new one to ya before next weekend.

[sparty]

Interesting... I was wondering why you were having problems.

I thought about the Webcam 63a (less expensive), but bought the Megacycle 125-75 (when I saw the HP numbers).

Just for comparison sake. 

Webcam 63a and the cam card goes like this:

|                              IN               EX
|     Valve Lash         .004"          .004"
|     Lobe Centre       103            103
|     Opens            27 BTDC     53 BBDC
|     Closes            53 ABDC     27 ATDC
|
|     Valve timing is checked with zero valve lash @ .050" of lift.

Megacycle 125-75 and the cam card goes like this:

                               IN                  EX
       Valve Lash        .005"             .005"
       Valve Lift          .400"             .375"
       Lobe Center      106              104.5 
       Duration           262               257
       Opens              26 BTC          53 BBC
       Closes              65 ABC          24 ATC

       Valve timing is checked with zero valve clearance @ .040" of lift.

On the Megacycle install instruction sheet it reads " We recommend .060" clearance on both intake and exhaust valves for all high performance cams.  Claying the piston is the safest way to check valve to piston clearance."

Has anyone every clayed their piston with their aftermarket cam?

Sparty

[scondon]

Hey Sparty,  The 63a Webcam is probably a closer match to the 125/65 Megacycle cam. Not as much "oomph" up top as your 125/75 but still a pretty good hot streetable cam. When you get to putting your bike on a dyno I'd be most interested in the results as I'd like to see what happens in the high rpm range.

 Ive got the 125/65 in one bike and a 63a going in the other. Only reason I didn't put a 125/75 in is that I still use the bikes for commuting and wasn't sure it would be good for city traffic. I'd be happy to hear any reports about how your engine runs with that stick.

  As far as claying the pistons go, well that's another reason I shied away from the 125/75. Sounds like too much damn work   I did read here recently about someone using soft soldering wire and inserting it through the spark plug hole so it catches between the rising piston and the dropping valve. If the wire gets squished it can be measured at that point to find piston to valve clearance. Haven't tried it but it sounds like a good way to double check things if the motor's already assembled.

[JohnG]

If you go by the "lobe center" then (correct me if I am wrong) the particular valve lash is not nearly so critical.  Since one post showed where the lobe centers are, it seems like you could take that approach. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong as its been a long time since I degreed a cam in.  I recall that the preference for the SOHC cylinder head was 105 degrees so that early number of 93 jumped out at me.

Given how far off that number is, I would be tempted to call the mfct up and review everything as there justmight  have been a misprint or two in there.  Far too much work involved to leave it to chance.

                     John

[MRieck]

Just as an example,even if you changed the exhaust # to, say open @44 BBDC and close @25ATDC you get around 99 LC. Consequently that would change intake timing to open @27 BTDC and close @43 ABDC which is 98LC. While that puts the opening and closing numbers of the intake and exhaust more in line with each other it also produces very low (advanced) lobe centers. One of the things that suck about the single cam is you are a slave to the lobe offset. 2 cam engines are much more flexible in regard to controlling cam numbers THOUGH if the cam is ground wrong even the 2 cam system will not work in regard to getting the lobe centers you want. I have a problem with getting the wrong grind from WEB so it does happen. As a side note I always check cam timing at running lash and it doesn't matter if you use .040, .050 or even .060 to check #s at.   PS...you set up looks perfect.

[scondon]

dakediddie,

 I've just finished playing around with my cam and it is just as far off the timing card as yours is by pretty near the same #'s.


     I initially set the intake open to the card specs:  27 BTDC

     Spun engine around to close and got:  41 ABDC  (card says 53 ABDC)


     Ignored open/close #'s for the moment and set to 103 lobe center(per timing card) and got this-


     Open:  22 BTDC    (card 27 BTDC)

     Close:  48 ABDC     (card 53 ABDC)

Lobe Center: 103        (card  103)

     Lift:     .357           (card .370)

Duration:   250            (card 260)


     I then switched measuring over to exhaust valve to check lobe center, open/close and got this-


     Open:  42  BBDC     (card 53 BBDC)

     Close:   30  ATDC    (card 27 ATDC)

Lobe center:   96         (card 103)

     Lift:     .359            (card .370)

Duration:   252             (card  260)


       When I installed my Megacycle cam all the #'s were spot on with the exception of the intake valve closing 1.5 degrees later than spec.   This Webcam is so far off it is laughable. Complete junk in my opinion and it would take 100 positive testimonials from Webcam users for me to even consider looking at their catalogue, much less think of purchasing a cam from them in the future.

       If it was just this one cam I would consider the possibility of a fluke error. Add your experience and I'm considering making a days ride to hurl this cam through their front window. Let me know if you'd like yours hurled through as well  (haha, not really. Makes a pleasant thought though)

[turboguzzi]

my two cents?
1. like soemone here said, go for lobe centers.
2. if you do go for lobe centers, then you'll gain a lot of accuracy by measuring at a higher lift than 050. would double that. the opening ramps might itntroduce a sizable error in the reading whereas from the engine tuning side, the lobe centers are more important. by measuring at say 0.1" just get the degrees from both sides of the lobe and see  where your lobe centers are.

TG

[scondon]

 Don't see how that's gonna help me gain the missing .013 of lift, but the equipment is still set up and I can't get anything more done today so why not. I really don't expect the lobe center to change from 96 to 103 on the exhaust while remaining at 103 on intake though. If it does I'll post it here.


EDIT:   Just checked lobe centers at .1" of lift and they measure exactly the same as at .050" of lift

[MRieck]

dakediddie,

 I've just finished playing around with my cam and it is just as far off the timing card as yours is by pretty near the same #'s.


     I initially set the intake open to the card specs:  27 BTDC

     Spun engine around to close and got:  41 ABDC  (card says 53 ABDC)


     Ignored open/close #'s for the moment and set to 103 lobe center(per timing card) and got this-


     Open:  22 BTDC    (card 27 BTDC)

     Close:  48 ABDC     (card 53 ABDC)

Lobe Center: 103        (card  103)

     Lift:     .357           (card .370)

Duration:   250            (card 260)


     I then switched measuring over to exhaust valve to check lobe center, open/close and got this-


     Open:  42  BBDC     (card 53 BBDC)

     Close:   30  ATDC    (card 27 ATDC)

Lobe center:   96         (card 103)

     Lift:     .359            (card .370)

Duration:   252             (card  260)


       When I installed my Megacycle cam all the #'s were spot on with the exception of the intake valve closing 1.5 degrees later than spec.   This Webcam is so far off it is laughable. Complete junk in my opinion and it would take 100 positive testimonials from Webcam users for me to even consider looking at their catalogue, much less think of purchasing a cam from them in the future.

       If it was just this one cam I would consider the possibility of a fluke error. Add your experience and I'm considering making a days ride to hurl this cam through their front window. Let me know if you'd like yours hurled through as well  (haha, not really. Makes a pleasant thought though)

I've been more a fan of Megacycle for a variety of reasons....

[scondon]

Mike, What do you think of the 125/75 cam? Think I'll still be able to ride the bike at low rpm's around town OK?  It's either the 125/75 or another 125/65 for this engine I guess. I'm waiting to hear back from Buzz as to what to do with this Webcam stick, but I need to make a decision on what I'll be putting in its place.

[bwaller]

Woa, that doesn't give me a warm & fuzzy. The Webcam for my 550 arrived Friday. Buzz highly recommended this one over the Megacycle piece. I won't be assembling the engine for a bit, but I hope my luck is better than you two!

[sparty]

Mike, What do you think of the 125/75 cam? Think I'll still be able to ride the bike at low rpm's around town OK?  It's either the 125/75 or another 125/65 for this engine I guess. I'm waiting to hear back from Buzz as to what to do with this Webcam stick, but I need to make a decision on what I'll be putting in its place.

scondon,

Mike recommeded to me the 125-75 over the Webcam.  I too was worried about how the bike would respon at low RPMs.  He assured me that enough power would be there.  Also, if you are going with the 125-75, it can be hard on the engine, therefore, I will have my engine over built by Mike.

Sparty

[MRieck]

Mike, What do you think of the 125/75 cam? Think I'll still be able to ride the bike at low rpm's around town OK?  It's either the 125/75 or another 125/65 for this engine I guess. I'm waiting to hear back from Buzz as to what to do with this Webcam stick, but I need to make a decision on what I'll be putting in its place.

The 125-75 measures out with valve lash about .392 or so. Personally I think that is about as big as you want to get with a street cam. The thing I really like about the 65 and 75 megacycle cams are the lift vs. duration. the cam still closes the valve soon enough to generate good compression as not to kill low end. Sure...the higher the lift with a long rocker arm engine will increase wear... I think the quality of oils now really offest some of the wear problems. I generally recommend the 125-65 unless you want every last drop out of the engine. The valve reliefs on Wiseco's are so deep I have yet to see a clearance problem.

[scondon]

Woa, that doesn't give me a warm & fuzzy. The Webcam for my 550 arrived Friday. Buzz highly recommended this one over the Megacycle piece. I won't be assembling the engine for a bit, but I hope my luck is better than you two!

   Buzz certainly knows his stuff and has been a really great help to me getting good bits for my bikes. I can't see him being motivated to recommend something for any reason other than his belief in the quality/performance of the product. Even if Webcam's bring him a higher profit margin I don't think he would put his rep behind a "iffy" stick. It is for this reason alone that I'm holding the thought that 'diddy and I got cams from a bad batch and that, if so, the problem has been reported by previous users and resolution won't be difficult. This 63a grind is so completely wrong that it's hard for me to think otherwise

   Sent an email to Buzz and one to Webcam.

EDIT: I typed up an email to Webcam but couldn't find an address on their site. I'll call them in the morning.


 

I generally recommend the 125-65 unless you want every last drop out of the engine.

 125-75 it is then     The 125-65 is still putting in good service in my Daily Rider and is a good call indeed for an oft used bike.

[dakeddie]

Woah...  two bad Webcams.  I got mine from Buzz too, and I already wrote him an email the other day.  I'm curious what he will suggest... he's been very good to me and and I trust his opinion.

Maybe I'll switch to a 125-65 or 125-75.

[scondon]

Woah...  two bad Webcams.  I got mine from Buzz too, and I already wrote him an email the other day.  I'm curious what he will suggest... he's been very good to me and and I trust his opinion.

Maybe I'll switch to a 125-65 or 125-75.

  Cool. Maybe it was a bad batch afterall. I'm glad you got yours from Buzz too, he runs a good ship and I trust he'll get it sorted for us.

  If you do switch to a Megacycle cam I can attest that the 125/65 is a pretty good stick. Power comes on strong at 5500rpm and has ya hangin' on tight through 9000rpm. Behaves well at idle and around town. Judging from the specs you should get longer life from your valve train than the 125/75, as Mike points out. Mike's another guy who knows his stuff and has never steered me wrong

[Sam Green Racing]

Sean, I know we havn't put many miles on the CR but it seems perfectly tractable at the lower end of the rev range with the 125-65 cam, it's when you turn the grip that things realy happen.

Sam.

[dakeddie]

  If you do switch to a Megacycle cam I can attest that the 125/65 is a pretty good stick. Power comes on strong at 5500rpm and has ya hangin' on tight through 9000rpm. Behaves well at idle and around town. Judging from the specs you should get longer life from your valve train than the 125/75, as Mike points out. Mike's another guy who knows his stuff and has never steered me wrong

On www.dynoman.net it says that 'lobe clearancing' is needed for the 125/65... does this mean you have to modify the cam holder?  or the valve cover?