Topic: 350F Winter Engine Rebuild

[OakBehringer]

Alright, here I go! I have my engine out and on the bench. It's a '74 350F with only 5,000 miles. It's burning a lot of oil on a cold start so I figured I'd pull the head off, check the valve seals, and maybe do some porting while I'm at it. I will also assess my piston to cylinder gap, which shouldn't be too bad considering the low mileage. I'm not very interested in splitting the bottom end if I don't need to, but we'll see how quickly the top-end goes.

Here is my shopping list so far:

Impact driver
Full gasket set - I don't see any on eBay at the moment. I will call my local dealer tomorrow.
Valve Spring Compressor - Are there specific ones motorcycles, or will any one do?

I know that's way too short... I already have a torque wrench + all standard screwdrivers, sockets, etc. What else should I be ordering?

Thanks! Attached are some pics of my bike and the engine as is.

EDIT - I should also note that I am already studying this this thread, so you don't need to suggest it:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=29364.0

[OakBehringer]

Alright - it appears that Honda doesn't make the top end gaskets anymore. I found this on CMS - Any opinions of this brand?

http://www.cmsnl.com/products/gasket-ab-topbottomne-reprocution_06112333s01p/

[mattcb350f]

Alright - it appears that Honda doesn't make the top end gaskets anymore. I found this on CMS - Any opinions of this brand?

http://www.cmsnl.com/products/gasket-ab-topbottomne-reprocution_06112333s01p/

I don't belive that they make the gasket sets (A and B) anymore but I didn't know they stopped making the individual gaskets.

That kit looks good to me. But I'd see if you cant get them from Honda. Try Western Hills maybe.

 Matt.

[OakBehringer]

I can't find the top end gasket kits anywhere. Honda doesn't make 'em anymore, according to my local dealer.

Can anyone tell if this is an oem set?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_Motorcycle-Parts-Accessories__Vintage-Honda-CB350-4-CB-350-Four-Complete-Gasket-Kit_W0QQitemZ110328512382QQadiZ2863QQadnZMotorcycleQ20PartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item110328512382&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A543|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318

EDIT: NOT OEM. This is what the seller said: "This item is Japanese made aftermarket. I believe this company made the gasket for Honda actually. High quality. I have sold many to riders and racers over the years ..everyone has been more than happy!"

[OakBehringer]

It's either that one, or this one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=370066528141

[mattcb350f]

It's either that one, or this one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=370066528141

That's a Vesrah kit, and has been used by a few on here. I think this is a good kit, but maybe do a search on that name.

I'm not sure what the other kit is, but the one they took a picture of is definatly not 'shrink wraped' like the add says.

I bought an 'Athena' kit from Oldbikebarn for my 350F. besides being short a few o-rings, it worked well. Although, I have have a head leak, I think it's more my fault than the gasket. The head gasket in the Athena kits is made from material from 'Victor-Reinz' ....a well know gasket company.

 Matt.

[OakBehringer]

I think I'll be ordering the Vesrah kit and buy an OEM head gasket, as well. Good plan?

Does $100 + $27 shipping seem a bit steep? To me it does...

Thanks,
Adam

[mattcb350f]

I think I'll be ordering the Vesrah kit and buy an OEM head gasket, as well. Good plan?

Does $100 + $27 shipping seem a bit steep? To me it does...

Thanks,
Adam

Sounds good. The Athena kit I got was about $100 USD, with shipping and the extra o-rings I had to source came to around $140 by the time it was all in my hands.

 Matt.

[Tim in Ohio]

I think I'll be ordering the Vesrah kit and buy an OEM head gasket, as well. Good plan?

Does $100 + $27 shipping seem a bit steep? To me it does...

Thanks,
Adam

Hi Oak...  Sorry I am a little late to the party.   I had some computer trouble, but Mrs. Santa has helped out with that 

My gasket kit was from Western Hills here in Ohio (Cincinnati).

I haven't looked at the kit you are asking about, but the price seems quite a bit higher than what I paid.  Mine was specifically a top end kit...  no bottom end gaskets, but you said that you are sticking to the top end of your engine anyway.  I think I paid around $58 or so for mine.

I will be following your thread. 

Merry Christmas to you and all of my SOHC4 buddies!

[OakBehringer]

As the holidays are over, I was able to get to work. (Not that I was really busy; it was just a great excuse to be lazy.) Tonight I tore my cylinder head off. I was pretty happy with what I saw, as there was no obvious signs of wear, but I'm not an expert on what I should be looking for. Neither the cam or the rocker arms have any scoring that I can feel or catch with my fingernail. Neither do the cylinder walls.

[Sorry for so many] questions:

1. Anyone obvious problems I am overlooking?
2. What should I do to inspect what I have removed so far?
3. I should probably replace the cam chain tensioner, right? (See pic attached to one of the following posts.)
4. What's next? Reading my initial post, I'm trying to remedy burning oil on a cold start. From what I understand, this can be from either 1. bad valve seals or 2. new piston rings needed. While I'm doing a top-end rebuild, I figure I might as well do everything within reason to make it perform its best. In that regard, should I have my valves & seats lapped? Anything else?
5. I'd like to pain the engine or, at least, the top end. Is doing the whole engine possible without splitting the case? Or should I stick to paining the top-end only?

Sorry for the generally open-ended questions. Thanks!

[OakBehringer]

More pics..

[OakBehringer]

Another...

[OakBehringer]

Pics pic pics

[OakBehringer]

Photototototo

[OakBehringer]

Camera pic phooooooto

[OakBehringer]

If requested, I can take much better pics of anything with my DSLR.

Thanks for the suggestions and help. I'm going to the dungeon to pull my cyl block off!

[OakBehringer]

I just thought of another question:

I remember reading on this forum about replacing the stock cylinder head studs with "HD" (Harley Davidson???) studs, which will allow me to torque the head past factory specs, thus creating a better seal at the gasket. I can't find the post now, but it sounds like a good idea to me. Opinions?

Thanks,
Adam

[seaweb11]

you can add more than one photo per reply

Nice work so far

[OakBehringer]

you can add more than one photo per reply

Nice work so far

I wanted to, but any two of those photos was over the max size limit of 250k per post.

[OakBehringer]

Alright, I got the cylinder block off, no problems there. What do I do with the cylinders/block to determine what should be done there? Would I be best off taking my cylinders and head to an engine shop to have the bore taper measured? Should I just change the rings unconditionally?

Sorry for the n00balicious questions.

Thanks!
Adam

[Tim in Ohio]

I'm am by no means an expert, but my two cents for what it's worth...  why are you assuming the need to replace the cam chain tensioner?  Do you think it looks overly worn?  or are you getting a audible clanking when the engine is running?
If it is doing it's job, and providing enough tension on the cam chain to have it turn the cam smoothly...  why worry?  If you are getting some noise, I would make sure the tappets are adjusted within spec.
I only say it because your costs are going to add up quicker than you expect and I am not a believer in replacing things just because you have the top end off and can get to it.  Of course, if money is no concern...  go for it, you can likely find NOS parts for most of your internals that you are interested in freshening up.

With regard to valve job or no...  If you are having your cylinder block reviewed/honed by a machinist, have him do some measurements against the spec wear limits on the valves while he is at it.  He will be able to help you diagnose the need as well as tell you how much it is going to cost if you opt for that.  There is a chance that a full blown valve job won't be a must...  maybe just lapping in the valves and getting the reseated...  much cheaper.

[OakBehringer]

I'm am by no means an expert, but my two cents for what it's worth...  why are you assuming the need to replace the cam chain tensioner?  Do you think it looks overly worn?  or are you getting a audible clanking when the engine is running?

I wasn't getting any audible clanking. I'm not sure what an overly worn tensioner looks like. I did notice, however,that there are some grooves worn into it. They look slightly deeper in the pictures than they are in "real life". I was hoping, based on that photo, that someone could take a look and tell me it doesn't need to be replaced, if that is the case.

If it is doing it's job, and providing enough tension on the cam chain to have it turn the cam smoothly...  why worry?  If you are getting some noise, I would make sure the tappets are adjusted within spec.

It seems to be doing its job, but I figured this would be a good time to replace it IF it's nearing the point that it stops doing it's job. But hey, if it's all good, I'd rather not buy a new one!

I don't know anything about the tappets- I'll search for that in my book when I'm reassembling it.

With regard to valve job or no...  If you are having your cylinder block reviewed/honed by a machinist, have him do some measurements against the spec wear limits on the valves while he is at it.  He will be able to help you diagnose the need as well as tell you how much it is going to cost if you opt for that.  There is a chance that a full blown valve job won't be a must...  maybe just lapping in the valves and getting the reseated...  much cheaper.

Alright, that's what I figured I should do. Without buying special tools, can I make these measurements at home?

Thanks,
Adam

[fishman_Phil]

Oak ... did you get around to purchasing a Top End Gasket set. I purchased a few of them over here in an auction just in case I need a set sometime. They were the Vesrah kits.

[OakBehringer]

No, I didn't, I'm about to PM you.

[OakBehringer]

Still waiting for some tools in the mail, but still made some progress tonight. Got the pistons off - #3 was a little tough, I could only slide the tubey thing out from one side. I'm pretty sure I'm going to need to order a set of new pins after tonight. We'll see if Honda can still get them tomorrow.

I also spent about 3 hours with a razor scraper carefully removing the base gasket. Would be much easier if those studs weren't there. I got most of the big chunks off without getting anything into the case, which felt great. Tomorrow I'm going to get some gasket remover and hit the rest. I assume that stuff is pretty hardcore and will disolve anything it comes in contact with, right? So I will be pretty careful not to let it get on anything but the gasket surface.

I thought I'd share a few extra photos:

1. A photo of my workspace - it's pretty pathetic during the winter. I'm relegated to a small corner of our basement.
2. MY method of keeping track of parts - I have about a billion 31 Flavor ice cream cups (long story) that are really easy to toss stuff into, label, and stack. Best part: When re-assembling, parts come off the top of the stack in reverse order (LIFO, for the coders out there).
3. These pistons are comically small. Although, my brother's Honda only has one and it's even smaller (background).