Author Topic: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post  (Read 5042 times)

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holysmokes

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #50 on: March 27, 2007, 08:32:03 AM »
so what about this pet food poisioning, is this an attempt to scare north americans?

if rat poison can enter into the pet food system, how about the weinner / sausages human food chain?

i wonder if this has any corrrelation to the war?

or am I just dreaming this connection?

Brent C.

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #51 on: March 27, 2007, 11:52:48 AM »
Ernie,
Please enlighten me. How and where has terrorism gotten worse. I'm having a hard time understanding your post
above. You made a lot of statements with nothing to back them up. It's supposed to be a point, and then you're reasoning. Not just a bunch of statements with nothing to back it up. I think that was in Debate 101. Not sure though,
I may have slept through it!

X2...... ;)

Offline Tvag

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2007, 12:02:57 PM »
Ernie,
Please enlighten me. How and where has terrorism gotten worse. I'm having a hard time understanding your post
above. You made a lot of statements with nothing to back them up. It's supposed to be a point, and then you're reasoning. Not just a bunch of statements with nothing to back it up. I think that was in Debate 101. Not sure though,
I may have slept through it!

X2...... ;)

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Brent C.

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2007, 12:27:06 PM »
So Basically...you don't want to win the war.......or you think we can't win....and should give up cuz it is too hard. :'( the whole nation needs to get a spine!!  If we do not win/finish what we started.....it WILL be our undoing!!......I don't think that todays puss-y generation could have won WWII with the "its to hard" attitude that seems so prevalent. ::)  If we "pull out" it is like pissing on the graves of all the heros that died before us. ........So go sell crazy somewhere else, were all full up here. ;D

Offline Tvag

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2007, 01:27:48 PM »
Quote
So go sell crazy somewhere else, were all full up here.
   :D

Ha! That was good. lol.

Your missing the boat, though. This war WAS our undoing. Going to WAR in Iraq was the grevious error. The entire world knew it, the UN knew it, and Bush knew it. It has nothing to do with difficulty... where did that even come from? I just showed the statistics. Terror is up... Bush said it would go down. End of story. Something is wrong here.
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Brent C.

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2007, 02:09:31 PM »
Quote
So go sell crazy somewhere else, were all full up here.
   :D

Ha! That was good. lol.

Your missing the boat, though. This war WAS our undoing. Going to WAR in Iraq was the grevious error. The entire world knew it, the UN knew it, and Bush knew it. It has nothing to do with difficulty... where did that even come from? I just showed the statistics. Terror is up... Bush said it would go down. End of story. Something is wrong here.

I agree some with timing of the war...but saddam needed to be removed. So fastforward to now.....we are still there, Cutting and running should not be an option. Nobody likes war, me included, but it is a necessity of freedom. and you will say "big oil"  "WMD's" & "haliburton" And I say that 1000's of people now have the freedom to live in peace, yes bagdad sucks right now, but what would be the end result in us just up and leaving?? how long were we in germany after the war ended?.......I think we still have a base there. as we should maintain a base in Iraq.

Offline Uncle Ernie

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2007, 07:35:43 PM »
OK. First- Bill, discussion is good and necessary  Discussion is an exchange of ideas.  Knee jerk name calling is mostly what happens, and that's not constructive.  Perhaps my last post was not not constructive.
This is what I have seen from TV news and some reading;  The American Government who are/were mostly Republicans decided to get rid of Saddam for what ever reason.  I think they were scared of what i would call "sabre rattling".  Being a mere civilian, I could tell that's all it was, but other folks that seem to know more than I do get scared.  After the statue got pulled down, Victory was declared and terrorists started messing around with everything- in large part because folks over there don't like The World Police occupying their neighborhood.
It's fascinating to me that historically battle rolls have changed so drastically. This is how i know the alleged leaders have no clue about what they are doing and why history must constantly repeat;  terrorism is exactly how "we" won the war against the British.  They would stand in a line and wait for American soldiers to walk up and exchange gunfire.  Instead, "we" shot from behind trees and ran like hell before they could set up their cannons.

Further, cutting off talks with governments is no way to gain understand or accord.  It seems despite the Bush governments efforts, "we" have still mangaed to placate the Koreans, and I'd bet a nickle that if we'd try to reason with Iran, the same might happen.  These so-called "leaders are all putz's that need to have their egos stroked.  The difference between our governments is that our leaders don't care about their egois as long as the bank is happy.  Sorry, but I don't think that's too cynical. 

As far a Clinton goes, he's not the most upright guy perhaps, but he IS a good statesman and under his presidency the budget got balanced.>  HELLO < HEY THERE- everyone is worried about some stinky little country sending over a little nuclear bomb... What do you think is going to happen when China calles in it's loans?!   Republicans are always calling the Dems spendthrifts.  Am I the only one who thinks we're spending out of control and it's going to kill us somehow?  You want to take care of and give respect to our service men and women,

Nevermind.  If anyone is at all interested, my last bumper sticker said, "I WISH I HAD SOMEONE TO VOTE FOR"  John Kerry was cruel and unusual punishment.  Pelosi is stupid and I don't understand why she gets elected.  Obama is a good dancer. Everytime a reporter asks him a question he shuffles and snaps his fingers.  McCain has danced around and it's made him dizzy.  Jphn Anderson ahot himself in the foot by saying he's Abe Lincoln re-incarnated but it's OK if I buld the rival to the Biltmore Estate and claim "I'm one of you" right?  Plus everybody's afraid he'll be worried about his wife when Canada invades.
No honest politicaia can get elected because that person copuildn't get enough money to campagn with because the bigshots wouldn't deem him/her electable because they know the American people WANT to be lied to.

OK. Well.  Hmmm.  Getting out isn't an option.  The folks of Iraq can't seem to get it together, and the smart ones have left town by now.  So- what do the All Ameican, it's blasphemy to question George Bush and his pals, good Republican types recommend we do?  Stay the course?  Improve the course somehow?  Send more soldiers we don't have with money we have to borrow?  Forever?

BTW, comparing post-war Germany to Iraq seems like a bit of a stretch to me.  And I'd sort of be interested in knowing how anyone could think that an adjustable rate mortagage is a good idea.
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Offline Uncle Ernie

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2007, 07:43:04 PM »
PS; ofreen, I agree.

You know, I just remembered something about the Republicans that bother me; why are they all against abortion, but it's OK to get all these soldiers killed?   What am I missing here?   Also, everyone realises that Osama's friend are shooting at us with weapons "we" gave them, right?

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Offline bill440cars

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2007, 05:36:24 AM »

Hey Uncle,

        You know, this discussion is one that could go on forever. I don't have all the answers. Sure Terrorism is increased. I sure hope no one thinks that it's only Iraqis that we're fighting. If there was still a "Joint Effort", things might be different (notice that I said MIGHT). As for politicians, I wouldn't give you a plug nickel for any of them. Every single one of them has something about them that we wouldn't like. And Bill Clinton. I wouldn't let him walk my DOG! Yeah, he talks some pretty good stuff. 1st 2 things he did in office was to do the Abortion thing and Start working for the QUEERS (well, that's what we used to call them) GAYS. He had a balanced budget because he didn't do a whole lot as far as the military was concerned. In fact, Military downsizing was going on strong. I was in the Army Reserves then and I was embarrassed to know that he was the commander -In -Chief. I could make a whole thread about Clinton and the things he did (& didn't do) in and for Arkansas. I'm still looking and hoping for a decent politician myself Uncle. ::)

          One thing's for sure. If our government would have done something to jump start programs to come up with "Alternative Fuels", then the thing about only being there because of their oil would not be an issue.

                                       I'm sending you a PM Uncle

                                                           Later on, Bill :) ;)
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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2007, 07:19:24 AM »
ill tell you what is sad,in a few years there will be more people in the senate and congress than veterans(may be already)  how the hell can a civilian tell the armed forces how to do their job.we are royally screwed.
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Offline Jv550

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2007, 12:19:30 PM »
Mmmm - a delicious-looking can of worms.
Bow,
1.There were 39 combat related deaths in Iraq in the month of January.
A suspiciously low number, one that seems to only include US military deaths. How many 'terrorists' did we kill that month in Iraq? How many civilians? How many civilians killed each other as a result of the civil war bloodletting we have unleashed? They're morgues are full! There were no terrorists in Iraq before we invaded - how many are there now? And if we care so much about the Iraqi people (enough to 'liberate' them from saddam), then why doesn't anyone seem to care about the more than 500,000 iraqis that have died as a result of this misadventure?

2.In Detroit, Michigan there were 35 murders in the month of January. That one American city is about as deadly as
   the entire war-torn country of Iraq
.
A ridiculous comparison. Many more people than 39 died in Iraq in January - but you don't care about them because they are not Americans. And please don't try to claim that everyone we've killed over there is a terrorist. What would you do if another country invaded the US? Even my liberal ass would take up arms against them - that's what the Iraqis are doing. Remember the movie Red Dawn? They see us as the Russians...

Many people say that President Bush shouldn't have started this war. He didn't. It was started
by Mid-East terrorists, with the first bombing of the World Trade Center in 1991. In addition remember
these facts:

Sorry. No Iraqis on the 9-11 planes. No Al Qaeda in Iraq. Bin Laden hated Saddam and was glad to see him go. I wish people would stop making this fallacious connection - Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11. Saddam was not in a position to threaten anyone. He was pinned down and neutered by the forces we left in Saudi after the first Iraq war. Sure, he was a dictator - so's Mugabe, so's Kim Jong Il, so's Putin if you ask me. So why not invade them too? You think we'd be in Iraq if they didn't have the second or third largest oil reserves on the planet? Right.

  A. FDR led us into World War II.
   B. Germany never attacked us. Japan did.

          Yeah, we declared war on Japan and Germany declared war on us - what's your point?


   C. Truman finished that war and started one in Korea.
        North Korea never attacked us.
        From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,334 per year.

And what did accomplish there again?

   D. John F. Kennedy started the Viet Nam warin 1962.
        Viet Nam never attacked us.
   E. Johnson turned Viet Nam into a quagmire.
       From 1965 to 1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.

Right - Vietnam was a mistake. So why are we repeating it in the middle east?   

F. Clinton went to war in Bosnia, without UN or French consent.
       Bosnia never attacked us.

We didn't need the UN - that was a NATO mission. We stopped ethnic genocide and smashed an army of seperatist muslim fanatics. I'm glad we did, personally. Why aren't you?

       He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter 3 times by the Sudanese
       and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.

Why do conservatives blame everything on Clinton? We did attack a Bin Laden camp with cruise missiles once, but the Pakistani intel warned Bin Laden, who escaped. The Pakistani ISI helped install the Taliban as a way to keep Afghanistan weak, so the Pakis could use the country as a backstop should they ever go to war with India. Bin Laden and the Taliban had an alliance, so he had a de facto
alliance with pakistan. I think someone already mentioned that Bin Laden was originally funded by the CIA to fight against the Ruskies when they invaded Afhanistan so I won't get all into that. On one of the occasions we supposedly had bin laden in our sights, we decided agasint blowing him up because he was at the time having dinner with some saudi and yemeni royalty, and right or wrong in hindsight, we didn't want an int'l incident. Oh, and as for the Sudanese, they were the ones that told us to bomb that aspirin factory or whatever it was...

   G. In the years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has liberated 2
        countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled Al-Qaida, and put nuclear inspectors
        in Libya, Iran, and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a tyrant who slaughtered
        over 300,000 of his own people."

I doubt the people of Iraq or Afghanistan feel very liberated. In fact, a whole lot of them don't feel anything at all - they're dead! Is that what you mean by liberated? The Taliban is actually gaining strength lately, what with all the opium money floating around Afghanistan, and they actually control huge swaths of territory now. If Al Qaeda has been crippled (I'd say they've restructured into a franchise operation), great! But where's bin laden? Where's al-zwahiri? 

   The Democrats are complaining how long the war is taking, but in actuality, it took
less time to take Iraq, than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound.
That was a 51 day operation.

i could give a crap about Reno and the Democrats, BTW. But this is just silly. If we took Iraq in 51 days, THEN WHY ARE WE STILL THERE FOUR YEARS LATER? We didn't take anything. And Koresh was a nut that thought he was Jesus. He was a terrorist in waiting. I'm glad he's dead.

   It took less time for the 3RD Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the
Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kenedy to call the police after his car sank at Chapaquidick![/i]
Dude, Ted Kennedy is a drunk. We know. We're not talking about Ted Kennedy! We're not talking about Clinton, We're talking about Iraq! The US Marines are bad ass. The US military is the strongest in human history. Of course they crushed the puny and overhyped Republican Guard! So what? What did we gain? A chunk of desert we have no use for filled with people who now want to kill us. Not exactly a great victory for the USA if you ask me.

   It took less time to take Iraq, than it took to count the votes in Florida!!!!!

Funny thing about this statement is, number one, we're still in Iraq. Number two, if we'd have counted those votes a little quicker, we'd never be in this useless, pointless war, because we'd have found out sooner that BUSH NEVER WON THE PRESIDENCY!
 :-*
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Offline matchanu

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #61 on: March 29, 2007, 05:27:05 AM »
You guys should stick to talking about bikes and boobs.

There is an overwhelming amount of buffoonery in this thread.


Offline DammitDan

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #62 on: March 29, 2007, 07:01:41 AM »
I just think it's interesting that every time I mention WMDs when I get in a debate like this, the other guy changes the subject to "But we got rid of Saddam...  Would you rather we DIDN'T get rid of him?  Ah, so you LIKE bloodthirsty dictators then, eh?"  And it's happened again in this thread.

If we're talking about removing terrible bloodthirsty dictators, then why don't we also invade Iran, North Korea, Argentina, Cuba, many parts of Russia, or CHINA?

If we're in Iraq for a humanitarian mission, then why don't we also assist Sudan (genocide) or Ethiopia (mass starvation)?

Then they always say, "Well even though we didn't find WMDs, it's still okay because we're helping the Iraqi people."

But are we really?  We have caused a civil war in that country, one in which hundreds of thousands more if not millions will die.  We have removed their (albeit terrible) deterrent to killling eachother...  now their military and police have implemented roving bands of murderers that stalk the streets at night.  Now they no longer have electricity.  Now they have to fear getting blown up in the streets every day by lunatics. 

"But... but... but WE'RE not the ones doing that stuff!"  We may not be the culprits, true...  We are simply the cause of it all.  But being the cause of a chain reaction still required the guilty party to cowboy up and offer some sense of responsibility.  But do we see this from the Bush admisitration?  I haven't seen it yet...  All I see are excuses like "The dog ate my exit strategy" and "Hey it's not our fault...  The Democrats are screwing up everything!"  I can assure you the Bush administration will never take responsibility for the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis killed and wounded.  Hell, they're barely taking responsibility for the 3000+ Americans killed.  And they sure as hell aren't taking responsibility for the 15,000+ wounded American soldiers who are handed a purple heart, a new prosthetic limb and a handshake for good luck in finding a job that doesn't require the use of your hands because they were blown off in Iraq.

"Stay the course" comments make me sick to my stomach.  "Only pussies cut and run" comments make me want to vomit.  There is no cause to be in Iraq except to line the pockets of American private contractors.  We are stuck in a quagmire, and I agree with Ofreen in that we will see a video one day of people jumping onto the last Blackhawk out of dodge as (a) the Iranian army or (b) Muqtada al-Sadr's militia batters down the walls of Baghdad.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 07:04:42 AM by DammitDan »
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Offline CrisPDuk

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #63 on: March 29, 2007, 11:26:43 PM »

Koresh was a nut that thought he was Jesus. He was a terrorist in waiting. I'm glad he's dead.

Koresh may well have been a nut, but that in itself surely wasn't enough to justify the ATF's actions in creating the siege situation :( Plus there has never been any credible evidence presented which would point to him being a 'terrorist in waiting' ::)

What about the 21 children that died in the siege, are you glad they're dead too  >:(

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Offline Jv550

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2007, 12:10:55 AM »
Alright you got me. No, I'm not glad all those poor, deluded people died alongside their phony prophet. It was a tragedy. And you're right, the ATF got trigger happy and botched the raid. But if Koresh wasn't a would-be terrorist, he was at least a would-be Jim Jones. He was amassing a huge cache of illegal weapons and he deliberately provoked the feds into action--he knew it was coming and welcomed it. He also had plenty of time to let those kids get out of there, but he was an egomaniac and cared more about his crazy cause than he did about his followers.
And it's got nothing to with Iraq... ::)
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holysmokes

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2007, 04:37:58 AM »
quote/...egomaniac and cared more about his crazy cause than he did about his followers....unquote/





sounds like Bush to me

Offline CrisPDuk

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2007, 07:55:53 PM »
Alright you got me. No, I'm not glad all those poor, deluded people died alongside their phony prophet. It was a tragedy. And you're right, the ATF got trigger happy and botched the raid. But if Koresh wasn't a would-be terrorist, he was at least a would-be Jim Jones. He was amassing a huge cache of illegal weapons and he deliberately provoked the feds into action--he knew it was coming and welcomed it. He also had plenty of time to let those kids get out of there, but he was an egomaniac and cared more about his crazy cause than he did about his followers.
And it's got nothing to with Iraq... ::)

According to the ATF's own penetration agent, who had been inside the compound prior to the raid, there was a large cache of legal firearms and 'some' assault rifles that had been adapted for fully automatic use.
If publicly inviting the ATF to enter and view the compound can be classed as deliberately provoking them, then yes he did. The ATF declined the invitations by the way.
Some of the kids actually chose to stay, probably as a result of witnessing the FBI's treatment of those who had previously left the compound.

This has everything to do with Iraq. Do you really believe that the extremists in the Middle East don't use the footage garnered from this travesty in their insurgent training camps. This incident was headline news worldwide, American law enforcement agencies in general, and the FBI/ATF in particular, were portrayed (pretty accurately IMO) as trigger happy thugs prepared to use massive and lethal force indiscriminately. Don't forget that the farcical aftermath of the Ruby Ridge incident was playing itself out in public at this time too.
Do you really believe that the extremists in the Middle East don't use this footage.
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Offline Jv550

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2007, 09:28:36 PM »
They use the footage? I can't figure out if you're saying they use it to train or they were inspired by it or what...
And I was agreeing with you that the feds are triggy happy thugs and that they screwed the whole thing up.

But wait! Weren't we talking about Iraq just a second ago? Am I in the wayback machine or what? ???
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2007, 10:17:47 PM »
That Koresh thing was fascinating for me, as Crispy rightly points out, the American people were (alledgedly) deluded by the US government (Bill Clinton's mob) into assuming that Koresh and his gang were a new right wing Christian militia group amassing a huge cache of weapons to use against the American people, when in fact that religious sect had been in the area for many years, Koresh having "inherited" the leadership from the guy who apparently founded the Branch Dividians in the 1930's.

The survivors of that particular holocaust maintain that they were buying and selling firearms to make some money, but of course, we'll probably never know if that's true. As far as letting the kids out goes, I could understand why they didn't, as I've seen (alledged) footage of the Delta Force helicopter gun ship shooting the unarmed 16 year old boy off the water tower and the M60 tank driving around the outside of the compound firing a GPMG M60 machine gun indiscriminately through the walls, and crashing thru one wall and getting bogged in a couple of the Dividians dead bodies.

The fire that killed most of the Dividians was (alledgedly)caused by the tank pumping CS gas into the main building, then igniting it with an incendiary device, (a magnesium flare) and while the tear gas alone in such volume could have killed most of the folk inside, the explosion and fire certainly made sure none got out of that building alive.

I understand that it's doubtful to most Americans to believe any of this because the German documentary "Waco, Rules of Engagement" was banned from "free to air" television in the US, but you can buy it on DVD nowadays, and it's certainly worth a look. Cheers, Terry. :)
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Offline Jv550

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2007, 12:23:38 AM »
Terry, I don't think 'Rules of Engagement' is actually banned here. I've seen it at the video store but haven't ever rented it. I guess I'm more concerned about the present 'holocaust' --the one that's still going on, and the one that I think threatens the future and stability of the world a whole lot more--than one that happened almost 15 years ago.

I don't know if you have the same kind of nuts as we do, (I know you've got your share   ::)) but America has a long and storied tradition with millenial cults, and the one thing they all seem to have in common is that it always ends badly for them.

Koresh was not a hero. He was a dangerous kook, and probably a child molester too. (It goes along with the whole cult leader thing...)

76 people died at Waco due to the US government's incompetence.

In Iraq, at least 60,000 people (the most conservative estimate) have died because our government was  incompetent, corrupt and just downright full of $#!+.  Only lately it seems like every time the subject comes up, someone always wants to talk about Clinton instead...
That's like hypnotizing chickens...

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2007, 06:04:48 PM »
G'Day JV, yeah mate, we've got plenty of nuts here too, but I wasn't making any connection with the current situation in Iraq and Koresh, I am just interested in that subject too.

I do believe however, that the 76 people in Waco more likely died as a result of government authorised murder, rather than just plain incompetence, but of course, that's just my two cents worth. Cheers, Terry. :)
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Offline ofreen

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2007, 11:24:21 PM »

I do believe however, that the 76 people in Waco more likely died as a result of government authorised murder, rather than just plain incompetence, but of course, that's just my two cents worth. Cheers, Terry. :)

The nature of the Branch Davidians crime was a simple one.  They were publicly defying the government.  The longer it went on, the more embarrassing it was for the government.  The government cannot allow such a thing to happen as it erodes its authority.  In the end, the government has only one response it will always turn to, and that is force.  They will use that force whether it is justified or not if their authority is challenged.  It makes no difference if the government's actions are lawful, or not.  Here is a picture that illustrates that principle very well.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2007, 11:30:39 PM by ofreen »
Greg
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"I would rather have questions I cannot answer than answers I cannot question." - Dr. Wei-Hock Soon

holysmokes

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Re: Thoughts on Iraq 2nd Post
« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2007, 04:35:59 AM »
there are many religions that openly defy the morals and values of north americans, but they are not slaughtered like in Wacko texas

the mormans do as they please,as in marrying more than one female, regardless of age, but have no walls surrounding their properties

catholic priests have abused young boys , that are in their control, inside of a building, they are not attacked

I thought freedom to own firearms is in the bill of rights

freedom of speech

freedom of religion , even inside of 4 walls, even walss surrounding a field

freedom of expression

etc

etc


we have the same guidelines here in canada , the constitution, except our firearms freedonms have been taken away


what has this got to do with the iraq bullying? freedom of life and choices