Author Topic: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...  (Read 15984 times)

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Offline puppytrax

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2007, 01:16:43 PM »
I was there and was a part of it...The 69 Honda 750 combined British styling with an affordable 4-cylinder...and disk brake...and SOHC...The 650 Yamaha "Adventurer" also cashed in on the BritBike styling...

Earlier Hondas had sold well but were fugly [450 Black Bomber; 305 Hawk/Superhawk]...The littler Hondas appealed to the youth market; Big Bikes [650+] were for the post-school/working crowd...

It's funny but whenever Japanese mfgs gets a winner styling-wise, they always manage to turn it into a piece of crap [stlying-wise]...   ;D
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline feliz

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2007, 02:39:31 PM »
Well, I can speak for the CB750 vs the Brit bikes. I had a 70 Norton Commando roadster, direct competitor to the Honda. My Norton had no kill switch, no turn signals, no electric starter, mirrors were optional, it had no oil filter, had no way to drain the oil tank, no disk brake-no brakes at all really, always leaked oil, had the famous Lucas electrics and so on. You know why the British like warm beer...because they had Lucas refrigerators. The Honda had it all and was just a better bike in every way, as far as handling the Norton lost out on that as well, it was a slug compare to the CB.

I've had many of the older Brit bikes and have just recently picked up a K3, no more British bikes thanks. Anyone want some Whitworth tools?
feliz

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Offline Geeto67

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2007, 04:06:26 PM »
  For as much as much as I've learned so far, it shows how much more I've yet to learn.  It's all good; I don't take Geeto67's personally at all.  I'd prefer to be corrected and be given the correct information.

Well, some of that about the SOHC 750 wasn't necessarily correct information, just personal opinion.  The problem with chains on the 750 was just that, a chain problem.  The 750 leap-frogged chain development a bit.  The 750 wasn't the first bike to require engine removal to perform top-end work, and it won't be the last.  It has plenty of company.  The 750 isn't the only bike that the designers thought it prudent to add a return throttle cable.  And the business about later valves in the 750 has to do with valve guides, not valves seats.  Sorry geeto.

I am not so sure the 750 leap forgged chain devlopment as much as people claim. There are plenty of bikes that made more hp than they 750 and used the same or similar sized chain (530 was pretty standard size back then) and didn't have the same problems. Sportsters, Norton combat commandos, just to name a few. I am sure it was more of a bad sprocket design and possibly a bad countershaft design (which allowed flexing - which is why the shaft was enlarged for the later bikes) than the chain itself.

You are right about it not being the first bike to require engine removal for top end work, lots of honda's previous bikes did that also. It is still not a good design any way you slice it. Also it is not an easy engine to remove. When honda did eventually solve the problem it was by removing a lower frame rail  and a thinner valve cover.

As far as the throttle cables are concerned no it is not the only bike to have a return cable either, but it is one of the few bikes that did really need it. Certain castings of the right bar control can have flashing that cuts through the cable fairly easily, plus the cable comes in at an angle to wrap aroung the throttle sleve and they did not chamfer the holes coming in. I have seen controls with wear markes grooved into them from the cables.

My point is there are plenty of flaws if you look and many are not hard to spot. No bike is perfect and the cb750 certainly does one thing well...outlast a lot of contemporaries.
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Offline Geeto67

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2007, 04:09:18 PM »
Well, I can speak for the CB750 vs the Brit bikes. I had a 70 Norton Commando roadster, direct competitor to the Honda. My Norton had no kill switch, no turn signals, no electric starter, mirrors were optional, it had no oil filter, had no way to drain the oil tank, no disk brake-no brakes at all really, always leaked oil, had the famous Lucas electrics and so on. You know why the British like warm beer...because they had Lucas refrigerators. The Honda had it all and was just a better bike in every way, as far as handling the Norton lost out on that as well, it was a slug compare to the CB.

I've had many of the older Brit bikes and have just recently picked up a K3, no more British bikes thanks. Anyone want some Whitworth tools?


I'll take those witworths off you. If your norton wasn't outhandleing a cb750 you werent handeling it right. My commando may not have beat the honda in a straight line, but around the curve it had more ground clearance and better handeling than any cb.
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Offline feliz

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2007, 05:41:50 PM »
I'll take those witworths off you. If your norton wasn't outhandleing a cb750 you werent handeling it right. My commando may not have beat the honda in a straight line, but around the curve it had more ground clearance and better handeling than any cb.

Oh, thats another thing, the goofy Isolastic mounting system. ;D I know how to ride a bike thanks. I'm not anti-British bikes, I had some great Triumphs that did handle well.

If your ever up this way I'll give you the Whitworths plus a bunch of Norton books and CDs.
feliz

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Offline Geeto67

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2007, 06:33:27 PM »
I'll take those witworths off you. If your norton wasn't outhandleing a cb750 you werent handeling it right. My commando may not have beat the honda in a straight line, but around the curve it had more ground clearance and better handeling than any cb.

Oh, thats another thing, the goofy Isolastic mounting system. ;D I know how to ride a bike thanks. I'm not anti-British bikes, I had some great Triumphs that did handle well.

If your ever up this way I'll give you the Whitworths plus a bunch of Norton books and CDs.

I didn't mean to knock your riding style, I just had a different expirence with it. The isolastics were a bit screwy and a lot of ill handleing brit bikes I knew of had bad bushings that the owners never attended to.
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Offline Magpie

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2007, 07:03:10 PM »
Years ago at Westwood race track on the outskirts of Vancouver, B.C. the production racing class was ruled by the CB750, Triumph Trident and the Norton Commando. No bike had a clear dominance. It seemed the winner was the one who had the fewest beers the night before. It was first class racing to watch. They were all running TT100's and the chicken strips were non-existant.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2007, 07:08:03 PM »
Ditto on Gee's and others comments about technical details and history. Honda built a new image for motorcycles. It started with their tame little bikes that had a slogan "You Meet the Nicest People on a Honda". Up until that point Bikes and the people that rode them had a very crappy reputation - and the bikes needed a lot of attention. Now you have a bike that does not wake up the neighbors, was pretty damn fast, reliable, and socially acceptable.  Mr. 3 piece suit could be "cool", and stylish. He is not a biker, he is a motorcyclist, and he rides a "nice" Honda, he is a Rebel but not threatening.  This was the perfect storm for marketing at that time. That image lives on and I must tell you my modest CB750 gets more compliments now than it did 10 years ago. The pendulum has swung the other way, Mr. 3 piece suit buys a twin, has the mufflers sawed off, puts on his doo rag and becomes a Sunday afternoon badass. You still meet the nicest people on a Honda - vintage Honda that is.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2007, 08:05:30 PM »
My question is this:  why?

See, I look at modern bike magazines, and without fail, the only bikes that make them happy or win comparos are the fastest bikes.  Build-quality, reliability, predictability, fuel economy be damned; the testers want SPEED and only SPEED.  The buying public, at least around here, bears that out as well, only being interested in Suzukis and Yamahas because they are FASTER!!!!!

So I extrapolate that magazine testers and buyers were just like that back in the 1970s, when the 750 was introduced.

Well the Kawasaki Mach IV and Z1 were faster than the Honda and the Britbikes like the Nortons and Triumphs handled better, so why was the 750 the top-selling bike well into 1977, (according to the magazines)?  If a buyer wanted speed, (and it seems that that's all they want), it seemed that Honda was NOT where you looked.  The Kawasakis and later Britbikes were fitted with disc brakes, electric start, etc, so what was the appeal of the Honda?

Also, in my thread about that crazy Z1 in the eBay section, I followed a link to a Kawasaki page and the build numbers for the Z1 are incredibly low, at least compared to the CB750.  What was the deal?

Basically I'm trying to start a Battle Royale between the CB750 and the Z1.  Having never even seen a Z1 in person, what was up with them and why was the Big Honda able to out-sell them if they were faster?


Well, I was there. I can tell you what I saw, but it was bigger than just Honda vs. Kaw (or anybody else). Like my avatar says, "If you remember the '60s, you weren't THERE...", the unenforced drugs, alcohol, smoking and escapism of every type has never reached the rampant levels it was back then.

The late '60s were a time like never before, nor since. We were testing all the things that had been sacrosanct to our parents, and things like the Vietnam War, city riots, campus riots and incredible crime everywhere were literally tearing the fabric of this country apart. The "hot summer of '68", when I was living in Chicago, was nightly riots and murder, Watts in L.A. wasn't any better, colleges were seeing students dying in riots every week. It was, quite literally, a rough time to be living, and at that time, I was living on the street myself. Not because I had to, but I wanted to "see what was up" in the "real" world.

We had tossed out many of our parent's ideals, like "the USA makes only the best things", and here came Honda, with the CB160, CB250/305, and the CB/CL450, which would run with almost no maintenance and take anyone long, long ways from home for pennies of gas. And, even Harley couldn't do that. Fords, Dodges and Chevies didn't even last as long. Honda became deeply entrenched in the average teenager's psyche as a result, and EVERYONE wanted to have one to ride. No matter where you looked, little Hondas were buzzing in every direction, day and night, year around.

Then, with no previous fanfare, came the 750. At it's debut, and in nearly stock street form, it blew away every bike in history at Daytona, in just one race. Honda didn't have to advertise it: it was whispered about in every gathering I knew, man or woman, old or young: this is the ticket AWAY from all that is going on. Enter Easy Rider, the movie (which is an excellent portrayal of mainstream teen-and-twentysomethings of the day), and the two made an explosive mix. Honda had hoped for sale of 10,000 units in the 1969-1970 seasons: they had 32,000 orders by the 3rd month after the intro, according to the Honda dealership where I worked at the time.

All you had to do to "shut Dad up" about his old Harley or Indian was to run through 1st and 2nd gear against him. No Ford, Chevy or Hemi could touch it in a 2-block race. You could ride for an entire weekend for $2 in gas, and if you laid off the throttle, you could sneak away in the night like a ghost afterward. EVERYONE talked about them, and most of us wanted one.

But, they were almost unobtainium for the first 2 years. Honda had no idea this was going to happen: they tried so hard to meet the demand that they sacrificed the quality quite a bit in the late K0 and all the K1 models, just to get them to a dealership. No one even cared what color it was: you would see people lined up at the sales counters every weekend, even BIDDING with cash in hand to get one. I laid down $250 in 1969 to "get in line" for my first one: this did NOT go toward the bike's price, either. And, I paid cash to get my K1 when it showed up, just to make sure I didn't lose my chance. It cost me a total of $1695 plus $250, which was 6 month's salary in 1970 when I got it. And, there were no loans in those days, like financing today. You gave everything up to get one.

And, it did not disappoint. In fact, it delivered an adrenalin rush of power that made my Ford with HP390 engine seem like a semi truck. I sold my car a month later, and hit the road, then the race track. It was 2 years before I even thought about owning a car again.

The 750 was so forgiving of owner mistakes that it set the standard for both bikes and cars from then on. Previously, bikes were on 600-800 mile oil changes, points at least twice a year, a battery every Spring, and kickstarters. Honda's little bike's electric starts didn't work well: this one started better than a car! And, in the first year, owners were hitting upwards of 50,000 miles on them without rebuilds or failures. ALL other motorcycles of the era (and a great many cars!) could not even do this. The legend was born.

Ironically, the very same day that Honda introduced the CB750 at the New York motor show, Kawasaki had their twin-cam 750 in the same hotel, to be debuted in the same show. The two companies were so quiet about it, they didn't even know about each other: Honda's team just had a more elaborate display, and started at about 2 AM or so setting it up. The Kaw guys saw it around 4 AM and called Japan: they were told to withdraw the "New York Steak", their code name for that bike, and return to Japan. Kaw did not wish to fight nor compete heads-up with Mr. Sochiro, a Bushido in high Japanese caste. So, Kaw spent 2 years developing a 900 on that chassis, the Z-1. It was too heavy, not smooth, handled like a tank, and was high maintenance, compared to the 750 by then.

It never mattered again, who developed what. Honda had changed motorcycling forever by 1971. Lawyers, bankers, accountants, college kids, even women were riding them, and everywhere. Not a day went past that one didn't purr by, stirring thoughts of a long trip on a lonely road to somewhere, anywhere that was away from the ruckus that American cities were then. And, the highways were empty! The RV had not yet appeared, trucks were 8-wheelers or 10-wheelers, and you could ride 90 MPH all day if you wanted to, on mostly brand-new cement Interstate highways.

And we did, on CB750s, by the thousands, all of us. Just ask someone who still has one, that was an original owner. It may sound a LOT like this story.    8)
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2007, 08:18:52 PM »
I just can't speak :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o ;D

Sam. ;)
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upperlake04

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2007, 08:29:44 PM »
That was a darn fine post HM :)

Offline kslrr

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2007, 08:37:16 PM »
Hondaman says "And, in the first year, owners were hitting upwards of 50,000 miles on them without rebuilds or failures."  

How true.  My CB350F had 80,000 on the clock before I rebuilt the bottom end and transmission.  Not because of any strange noise or missed shifts, I just felt that it was a good time to go through the engine completely.  That was 20 years ago!  It's still running strong!
Now  1972 CB350FX (experimental v2.0)
        1981 CB650c Custom with '79 engine (wifes)
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        1977 Yamaha XS750D (in progress)
Then 1972 CL175
        1964 Yamaha YGS-1T
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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2007, 08:43:34 PM »
Hondaman: great post! appreciate your insight.

eldar

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2007, 08:56:06 PM »
I think Hondaman sums it up right there. I dant care what problem a person has with the honda. EVERY bike has its issues and many worse than the cb.  Look at todays rockets, how much work has to go into just getting READY to pull the engine, IF you can even work on it. Most of the harleys of the day and even into the 80s handled worse than the cb did. Part of the reason most people love their bikes are because of the quirks they have.

Offline paulages

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2007, 12:11:12 AM »
from everything i've ever read (i'm only 31, mind you) the significant historical discrepancy here (between the books i've read, what hondaman is saying, and what geet67 is saying) is power of the bike itself. the specs i read stated that the '69 blew a stock sportster, commando, and bonnie out of the water in terms of power. am i wrong, or wasn't the BSA and triumph triple, etc. a result of the need to catch up to honda's newfound lead?
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Offline bryanj

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2007, 04:31:10 AM »
OK folks I was a full time spanner jockey in the UK back in the mid 70's and the two BIG things that the Jap bikes had over ANYTHING else were:-
(1) ALL the Electrics worked EVERY time

(2) NO oily puddles underneath and NO gallons of oil in the shed for top ups

As a side thing the chrome didnt fall off in the wind (unlike the italians) and the paint didnt polish through (like the British) plus not only did they go they STOPPED as well without discovering that adrenalin is brown, runny and drips from your trousers

97% of all failures were down to owner neglect (usually not reading the handbook!) Most chains broke because the dealers didnt fit the battery breather tube right and acid etched the chain sideplates causing weakness.

Last thing the Z Kawas had a chain cam drive and it was a pain to set up as you had to "count" link pins between cam marks then fit an idler
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2007, 10:33:12 AM »
plus not only did they go they STOPPED as well without discovering that adrenalin is brown, runny and drips from your trousers

I hope I can remember this line to plagiarize it in the future. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Geeto67

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2007, 10:46:53 AM »
from everything i've ever read (i'm only 31, mind you) the significant historical discrepancy here (between the books i've read, what hondaman is saying, and what geet67 is saying) is power of the bike itself. the specs i read stated that the '69 blew a stock sportster, commando, and bonnie out of the water in terms of power. am i wrong, or wasn't the BSA and triumph triple, etc. a result of the need to catch up to honda's newfound lead?

It all depends on your sources (vintage or modern) and what you mean by fastest. Vintage tests have to be taken with a grain of salt because the 60's and 70's were an era of ringers. Modern sources have to be taken with a grain of salt because nostalga has set in.

Cycle magazine (not cycle world) used to do these huge comaprison tests at the end of the year. I believe that is where they crowned the XLCH the Fastest bike for 1969 based on 1/4 mile et. I do not remember if honda or kawasaki (for the h1 not the Z1) was even part of their test. Other magazines did other tests too and each crowned their own winner, so finding material to say your bike is the fastest (or subsequent books who use that material) is not hard.

Ask a Harley enthuaist and he'll tell you the sportster was the fastest bike for 1969 based on that 1/4 mile et. Ask a brit-o-phile and he'll say the triumph bonniville or norton commando based on raod racing lap times from another magazine. Ask a kawasaki enthuaist and he'll likely say the H1 500 and throw in some spec about 0-60 time (the h1 was a fearsome accelerator but lacked the 4 stroke's top end charges). Ask a honda guy and the cb750 always comes up because a buddy of his used to race one and it was the "fastest in town". My point is, it is all a matter of perspective and specs and stories don't matter as long as you have your own expirences for the bike.

We all have had different motorcycle expirences that brought us to the same bike, for a lot of different reasons. Me, personally, I came to these bikes because my fther was an original "cafe racer" and the only bikes we ever had around when I was growing up were cb750s, Dunstall Nortons, and a 1986 Kawasaki ZX1000RX Ninja.

The Rocket3/Trident came out the summer of 1968 as a 1969 model, four weeks before the cb750 so I doubt they were instituted as a way to catching up on the revolution that the japanese had yet to start. They were considered the best road bikes before the honda was introduced. The T160 was produced in 75 to "catch up with the cb750K" by adding a 5 speed gearbox, electric start, disc brakes, and left hand gear shift but by 74 this was where all the brit bikes were going (took 4 years to catch up).

« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 10:56:52 AM by Geeto67 »
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2007, 11:35:17 AM »
If you read through all of the technical and historical posts, it is clear that Honda had the right product at the right time. It may not have been perfect, but it was good enough. What is feeding it's poularity today is probably that so many were made and sold worldwide, there are still a sizable number around. So , from that era, it is the last man standing.

When someone asks me about mine, I don't highlight mechanical and design flaws, I talk about it being the worlds first superbike(true or not, truth  is irrelavnt when discussing your woman or your bike). My old 1967 Mustang 2+2 with the Shelby engine is a legend and I wished I still owned it for the money it could be worth. In truth it was a #$%*ty car, badly made, required tons of repairs and pampering, did not turn very well, brakes were poor, and it rattled and rusted quickly. Time has made it desirable, and nobody cares about the truth.

My 78K may not be the perfect bike in all the ways bikes are perfect, but I don't care. It is fast enough to do what I want it to do, it handles well enough, it is retro beattiful and restored enough, so I go no where and feel humble.     
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline burmashave

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2007, 12:16:51 PM »
Hondaman, that was worth the read indeed.
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Offline Bikebuff

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #45 on: March 30, 2007, 01:10:01 PM »
Thanks too, Hondaman, that post was poetic.   ;)


Prost!

Offline dusterdude

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2007, 01:11:09 PM »
xactly
mark
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Offline 736cc

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2007, 01:21:52 PM »
They look right, sound GREAT, ez to work on and get parts, fit me to a "T", and it seems every one I've found, restored and owned has a good story behind it. Like my 1st CB750 (a sandcast) I found in a local paper DIRT CHEAP about 10 years ago. Started it for the 1st time at 4AM and friggin FLAMES shot out the unbaffled 4 pipes, accompanied by incredibly LOUD backfires.
Or the K0 I bought sight unseen 250 miles away in Vermont; I hitched a ride up there then rode it home on a GLORIOUS Fall weekday on country roads. Bike hadn't been ridden in many years, yet all I needed to bring was a set of plugs, carb jets and a fresh chain. Theres another 40 some odd early CB750's I've had the pleasure of owning, not a sad story in the lot.
Last year my buddy found the holy-grail of CB750's: the long-forgotten pre-production prototype CB750 unearthed in a dusty warehouse and I am involved in its rebirth. When completed this summer, we are taking it and a couple other sandcasts to California to meet-up with some magazine people then ride it to Honda's USA headquarters!
NEWS FLASH!!!!
There are preliminary plans to have the 40th anniversary celebration of the CB750 in 2009 designated THE MARQUE Motorcycle at 2009 Vintage Motorcycle Days in Mid-Ohio. I am on its organizing committe, and SOHC CB750's of ALL YEARS will be invited, with the sandcast 1969 as the official featured motorcycle. It will be the largest gathering of CB750's in history. For anybody head-over-heals about CB750's, it doesn't get any better than this.


« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 01:39:54 PM by 736cc »

Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2007, 01:26:42 PM »
NEWS FLASH!!!!
There are preliminary plans to have the 40th anniversary celebration of the CB750 in 2009 designated THE MARGUE Motorcycle at 2009 Vintage Motorcycle Days in Mid-Ohio. I am on its organizing committe, and SOHC CB750's of ALL YEARS will be invited, with the sandcast 1969 as the official featured motorcycle. It will be the largest gathering of CB750's in history. For anybody head-over-heals about CB750's, it doesn't get any better than this.

I'm gonna be there.  Prolly won't have a K0 by then, but I'll bring up the F1.

Offline bwaller

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Re: What was it about the CB750? Honest question...
« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2007, 01:55:47 PM »
Sounds like a party, count me in. It'll be like the old days 750's everywhere.