Author Topic: 1976 CB550F - Turns out I have CB500K carbs on it - 627B - thoughts?  (Read 7388 times)

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Offline Tim.

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Can anyone provide the correct carb id codes for a 1976 CB550F?  I need to confirm something - my carbs may not be original.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2005, 07:36:16 PM by tintin »
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Offline nopivnick

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Re: 1976 CB550F Carb codes
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2005, 02:26:09 PM »
Can anyone provide the correct carb id codes for a 1976 CB550F?  I need to confirm something - my carbs may not be original.

Keihin 069A

Offline Tim.

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Re: 1976 CB550F Carb codes
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2005, 07:30:38 PM »
So... any idea what Keihin 627B would be from?  That's the number stamped on the carb body #4 on my 1976 CB550F.
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Offline Tim.

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Re: 1976 CB550F Carb codes
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2005, 07:35:44 PM »
Answered my own question - based on an old Greenspun posting by Lloyd, his 1972 CB500 had carb 627B on it...

So, it looks like I have an early CB500K carb set on my 1976 CB550F...  Any thoughts from anyone on this situation?  I'm going to keep my eyes open for another set of carbs - any suggestions?  Was there a particularly 'good' year for 550 carbs?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1976 CB550F - Turns out I have CB500K carbs on it - 627B - thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2005, 09:46:40 PM »
Much depends on how close to stock you plan to keep the bike, wrt exhaust and intake flow characteristics.

If you keep the stock set up you will be best served and, I think, much happier of you can find 069A carbs with their original jets, needles, etc., as these carbs are tuned and set up to operate well with those components.

If your 627Bs are still configured as they were set up for the CB500, with its smaller displacement and 4 into 4 pipes, some portion of performance will be less than correct.  Will a CB550F in stock trim still run with these carbs, sure.  But, there may also be issues with fouling plugs, flat spots in certain RPM bands, poor fuel ecomomy, and likely less peak power than could be acheived with the correct carb set up.  There is also the possibility that 627B carbs can have their internals changed so that they meet the set up configuration of the 069As.

The chart below (probably have to download it to read it) shows what I have found different between various CB500/550 models.  Honda changed things for a reason, I think.  I trust they knew what they were doing.


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Tim.

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Re: 1976 CB550F - Turns out I have CB500K carbs on it - 627B - thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2005, 03:41:42 AM »
Thanks - the bike is completely stock.  I bought it last summer, and this year I decided to splurge and have a mechanic rebuild the carbs and tune the bike up.

Ended up rebuilding the entire top-end.  New pistons/rings, bored 0.5mm over (rings in cylinder 3 were broken), had the cylinder head reconditioned etc.  That along with the carb rebuild and new points/condensors (Honda OEM parts).

Anyhow, they had difficulty with tuning.  The carbs are pretty worn out linkage-wise, and to make matters worse, I provided Keyster CB550F carb kits.  They didn't use them blindly, and in fact they were the ones to point out the carbs were likely not the originals.  Too late in the game - I think they noticed that well after rebuilding them.

So, my carbs are a bit of a mess, but they did get the bike running.  It is very ridable now, but not perfect.  There's some hesitation at the low end (right off idle) and idle can jump around between 900 and 1300 RPM and is very boggy at 1100 or lower.

Regardless, I'm not touching these carbs again - I will source a set of 069A's and rebuild them.  Should be MUCH easier to tune the bike once I get the stock carbs on it  ::)
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Offline bryanj

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Re: 1976 CB550F - Turns out I have CB500K carbs on it - 627B - thoughts?
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2005, 07:56:38 AM »
Tintin, In all honesty I dont think the different number on the body made much difference, Honda just seemed to alter the jets and settings for different countries. I must have a douzen or so sets in my garage, all in varying states of crappiness if you want me to look sometime.
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1976 CB550F - Turns out I have CB500K carbs on it - 627B - thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2005, 10:20:33 AM »
Tintin, In all honesty I dont think the different number on the body made much difference, Honda just seemed to alter the jets and settings for different countries. I must have a douzen or so sets in my garage, all in varying states of crappiness if you want me to look sometime.

If you look at the chart, for example year 76, Honda produced both the K and F model CB550 bikes.  The engine mechanicals, air filter, were identical for these models.  The only difference, engine operationally speaking, was the K had 022A setup and the F had 069A setup carbs to correspond with the 4 into 4 vs. 4 into 1 pipes.  These were US models, same country.  Altering for country?  Don't all countries share the same range of barometric pressures, and percentage of oxygen in the atmosphere?  Why would carb set up vary on a per country basis?  I don't think the laws of physics change when you cross country boundaries.  Governments aren't THAT powerful.

Are there different Honda Shop Manuals published for different countries?  It would be interesting to see one of those and compare specifications.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline bryanj

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Re: 1976 CB550F - Turns out I have CB500K carbs on it - 627B - thoughts?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2005, 01:43:23 AM »
If you look in theparts books you will see different jets and i think some other bits with different "area" codes. I think it was done to reduce emissions in the "sensitive" areas whilst giving full power in the loony countries (like UK). Now parts books were more coutry specific than workshop books and i will say that the 500 book is not too great on the specific details relying on model specific "supplements" to detail the differences and the translation from japanese deffinately leaves a lot to be desired BUT this was done in the early 70's and i will say that the later books for later model bikes were better but the picture got worse.
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Tim.

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Re: 1976 CB550F - Turns out I have CB500K carbs on it - 627B - thoughts?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2005, 12:20:39 PM »
So, if I got a set of late model 550K carbs, and jetted them as per the 550F specifications, I'd be ok?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1976 CB550F - Turns out I have CB500K carbs on it - 627B - thoughts?
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2005, 03:51:41 PM »
I base my recommendations on data gleaned from the Honda Shop manuals, and observations on my collection of CBs.  They are listed in my sig. 

I’ve lived in California since 1969 and suffered under the new "smog control laws" as they were foisted upon the motoring public.

California led the nation in restrictive smog laws.  And, didn’t turn their attention to regulating motorcycle emissions until the 80’s.  Still, Honda saw the writing on the wall, and probably monitored the legislators inclinations in the halls of politics.  The 77 and 78K models saw the introduction of a different carburetor, design capable of "lean burn" idle adjustments.  The F model never saw these carbs in production. All my information says that ALL the F model CB550Fs had 069A carbs.  All my CB550Fs have 069A carbs. And, I know one of these (my 76) was first sold in Arizona, where smog control laws lagged California by several years, and one of these (the 77) was definitely first sold in California.  On the other hand all the CB550Ks were marked with 022A, referring to how the carbs were set up.  As stated before, I believe these set ups were different because of the 4 into1 vs. the 4 into 4 pipes.  And, I have no data to believe otherwise.   Some of the after-market carb kit manufacturers also recognize these different set ups and put different parts in their kit to maintain the setup.  And, while it is difficult to prove on bikes whose history is unknown.  Carbs of each setup, where I was fairly confident hadn’t been compromised since new, had consistent parts installed in them corresponding to the table I posted previously.

Bryanj claims he has superior information in the form of parts books, and I have no access to those. I don’t even know the source of those books or where they come from.  I’ve no reason to believe he is trying to mislead either.  However, I’ve also seen no data presented from those books. Or, any way of verification and validation if it was.  To be honest, I find my own data and experience so consistent and overwhelming, I just couldn’t take someone else’s offhand word it was wrong at this point.  No offence, but, I need hard data.  All those years as an engineer has taught me that discipline.  And, simply stating the Honda Shop Manuals are wrong, isn’t enough, sorry.

I have no experience with the European models.  Or, how politics and regulations somehow ended up corrupting the fairly straightforward setup number stamping vs. internal parts selection.  But, I do believe that North American models were first sold with consistent internal parts no matter where in North America they were sold.

You may well be able to change a carb body and internals stamped 627B so that it operates as an 069A.  But, there are unknown specifications between these two.  For, example I can’t find the air jet specification for the 022A or 069A.  This is drilled into the carb body, not a replaceable jet.  Further, the main emulsion tube air bleed holes are unspecified for the 627B.  These tubes appear to be pressed into the carb bodies, and I know of no replacement source.  The parts fiche doesn’t list this as a part available separately from the carb body. And, I have specifications that show the hole sizes are different between the 022As and the 069A.  Then there is the air screw whose taper is unknown for the 627B.  You will have to find a corresponding setting that equals the air flow for that of the 069A carbs at factory setting.  Certainly, the needles would have to be changed as well.

So, I think you need to decide on how much fiddling with the carbs you wish to perform.  If you have a Dyno, and/or enjoy doing multiple plug chop tests and repeated carb removals, reinstallation, and syncing operations,  then modify your existing 627B carbs.  If your bike wasn’t stock in every other aspect, I’d say keep tweaking.  But, neither BryanJ or I will be at your side, twisting screwdrivers and wrenches.  (Well, perhaps in spirit…)

Or, you can put on a good set of 069A carbs, set them to factory specs, and go ride your bike that performs as Honda intended.

But, then, maybe BrianJ is right and all my data and research is meaningless.

You makes your choice and your takes your chances.

Good Luck!

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Tim.

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Re: 1976 CB550F - Turns out I have CB500K carbs on it - 627B - thoughts?
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2005, 04:13:06 PM »
Well, my 627B carbs have already been worked over, and the bike is running 'ok'.

My question is not whether the 627B's should be worked over, but rather a set of 550K carbs, such as 022A, X46A or PD46C.

I'm not holding my breath on finding a good set of 069A's, and have a line on a very good, rebuilt set of 550K carbs (I don't know which model - will find out).
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Offline hymodyne

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Re: 1976 CB550F - Turns out I have CB500K carbs on it - 627B - thoughts?
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2005, 07:41:48 PM »
small world...

I recently discovered that my '72 500 was using 550 carbs (thanks two tired). one of two differences was the size of the slow jet, bigger on the 550. With a 4-1 and pods I'm hoping to break even, starting with  needle notch one up from the bottom.

I also have a set of '76 550K carbs, but they have been picked over. the side choke lever and all mechanical linkage is in good shape, but bowls and floats would have to be replaced. you can have them for the shipping.

email for a pic,

hym
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Offline bryanj

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Re: 1976 CB550F - Turns out I have CB500K carbs on it - 627B - thoughts?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2005, 08:13:00 AM »
Two tired, I dont think in anyway your resurch is meaningless, I have been working on these way to long to throw out any info i am given, although like you i prefer it to be proved. My scanner is poop at the moment but from the Cb500,CB500K1 book3 section E22 Carb assembly 16100-323-004 for countries A,D,E,F,U and 16100-323-610 for countries ED,G, H with all parts being the same (including slow jets) except the main jets being respectively 100 and 78---YEP 78---very small and i never seen any! Now there is no Number for carb bodies so who knows. Also this is 500 not the 550 and you have to remember the ONLY 550's into UK were the F and the K3 the K3 having the very last and most horrrible carbs with the pressed in jets sharing the carb gasket kit with the 750Auto ( another bike that never oficially made it to UK!) All this i have discovered using Honda Workshop/parts/reference books along with an old partss price microfiche to see what existed.
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline nopivnick

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Re: 1976 CB550F - Turns out I have CB500K carbs on it - 627B - thoughts?
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2005, 08:43:56 AM »
Further, the main emulsion tube air bleed holes are unspecified for the 627B.  These tubes appear to be pressed into the carb bodies, and I know of no replacement source.  The parts fiche doesn’t list this as a part available separately from the carb body.

Check it: Now how come this kit comes with a needle jet?

Not to mention 2 different main jets and 7 (possibly 4 are the ever ellusive "T" joint) o rings?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1976 CB550F - Turns out I have CB500K carbs on it - 627B - thoughts?
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2005, 11:33:45 AM »
Well, I have tried, with reasonable force to get those needle jets out of the carbs for cleaning.  But, gave up out of fear of irreparable damage.

I'd like to hear of how someone has done it with a favorable outcome.

Maybe I'll try a bit harder next time...   :-\
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline bryanj

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Re: 1976 CB550F - Turns out I have CB500K carbs on it - 627B - thoughts?
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2005, 12:41:09 PM »
That kit looks VERY interesting. And yes it does appear to have the needle jet assembly. By the way I can supply nearly right "O" rings to people with sense as they need to be fitted carefully due to being VERY tight as they are not EXACT cross section match but the closest I could get at my "local" supplier Who happen to be a firm called Dowty Hydraulics a susiduary of Dowty Propellors, trouble is i have to buy a minimum 100 of any size i go for
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1976 CB550F - Turns out I have CB500K carbs on it - 627B - thoughts?
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2005, 01:27:18 PM »
That kit looks VERY interesting. And yes it does appear to have the needle jet assembly. By the way I can supply nearly right "O" rings to people with sense as they need to be fitted carefully due to being VERY tight as they are not EXACT cross section match but the closest I could get at my "local" supplier Who happen to be a firm called Dowty Hydraulics a susiduary of Dowty Propellors, trouble is i have to buy a minimum 100 of any size i go for

Yeah, I ran into that same problem a couple years ago when I was looking for some o-rings for a different project (R/C airplane carburetor).  Anyway they said they could get the them, but, I would have to buy at least a hundred.  I only needed three. But, thought a couple of spares would be good.  So, I asked what 100 would cost?  They said, well with shipping and all it would be $5.  I decided I could afford that.  Now, I have a little bin in the garage with spares for a lifetime.

I wonder what my estate manager will think about all these little bits of stuff lodged in nooks & crannies, after I'm gone?  I'm sure he'll say "What did he need so many of THESE for?"
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline nopivnick

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Re: 1976 CB550F - Turns out I have CB500K carbs on it - 627B - thoughts?
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2005, 05:40:14 PM »
Well, I have tried, with reasonable force to get those needle jets out of the carbs for cleaning.  But, gave up out of fear of irreparable damage.

I've a vague recollection of reading somewhere someone using a hammer with a (wooden) pencil as a drift.

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Re: 1976 CB550F - Turns out I have CB500K carbs on it - 627B - thoughts?
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2005, 07:29:39 PM »
or a piece of 5/16 inch diameter wooden dowel sharpened to a "customized" point with a pencil sharpener. Saw this done on salocal.com and did it on my 750 carbs. It works good. :)

Offline nopivnick

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Re: 1976 CB550F - Turns out I have CB500K carbs on it - 627B - thoughts?
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2005, 10:03:40 PM »
or a piece of 5/16 inch diameter wooden dowel sharpened to a "customized" point with a pencil sharpener. Saw this done on salocal.com and did it on my 750 carbs. It works good. :)

does one drift/drive/whatever toward or away from the bowl?

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Re: 1976 CB550F - Turns out I have CB500K carbs on it - 627B - thoughts?
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2005, 05:58:15 PM »
On the 750 carbs, you gently drive the needle jet out of the carb body from/thru the top of the carb downward, toward the float bowl, with the bowl removed of course. Not positive about 550 carbs though, but think it'd be similar. The early 750 carbs do not have o rings associated with the needle jets (not sure about the 550?). Hope this helps and didn't confuse.