Topic: Thank a Belgian...

[burmashave]

I was going to post this in the New Member thread for Tim; however, it is so far afield that I thought it best to be posted here.

I've learned, as many of you have, that amount of talk is usually inversely proportional to amount of action and vice versa.  There is one country -- that will remain nameless, and which actually thwarted Allied efforts, and which shipped untold numbers of Jews east -- that talks endlessly about the exploits of its underground fighters during World War II.  There are other countries that speak little about their resistance of Axis forces and support for the allies.  Let's start with Denmark.  In the Holocaust museum, there is a list of individuals, listed by country, who aided Jews during the war.  For the country of Denmark, the museum cites the **entire country** as a group.  Visit Denmark and see bullet marks in Copehagen where Germans fired into entire crowds of strikers.  This despite the fact that Denmark lies on Germany's doorstep.

When we talk resistance, we need look no further than the Poles.  We know the Germans took Poland in short order; however, the Poles in Warsaw held out for 63 days against an absolute onslaught by the Germans and despite the fact that the Poles were armed primarily with light arms.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Warsaw_%281944%29.  By the way, we forget that we did not aid Poland in its stand against the Blitzkrieg.

Then, there's Belgium.  I have a relationship with the Battle of Bastogne.   My next door neighbor served in Third Army under Patton during the battle of Bastogne.  On that miserable Christmas, a Belgian family took in my neighbor and another GI for a warm Christmas dinner.  Somehow, the family came up with a lavish (by wartime standards) Christmas dinner for them.  My neighbor, now 80, still corresponds with one of the sons of the couple that took them in.  I've read the letters, and they are touching.  They even visited him here when they toured America.  The son is an artist, and he has sent my neighbor paintings as Christmas parents.

My neighbor actually met General Patton during an inspection.  At the time, he was demonstrating a field modification they were making to improve bazookas.  I believe he was a private at then:



The picture is one of my prized possessions, and to understand its context, it is true to say that during WWII, many other GI's did not even know who there army commander was, let alone be so proud of a meeting.  We've been neighbors since 1968, and we did not find out that he is a vet until last year.

By the way, there's a country that talks much of its exploits now, but whose citizens were oft heard to say that things were better under the Germans immediately after their country had been liberated.

[medic09]

One of the longest battles in Europe in WWII was the German effort to destroy the Warsaw ghetto.  Jewish underground fighters held out against ground and air assaults longer than some European armies, with almost no support from the Polish underground.

Albania couldn't fight, but they saved almost every Jew in the country.  Bulgaria refused as a matter of sovereignty to hand over *Bulgarian* Jews.  They did hand over foreign Jews.

The story goes that when the Germans decreed that Danish Jews appear in public wearing yellow stars, the King of Denmark appeared in public the next day wearing a yellow star.  Enough said about physical and *moral* courage.

Didn't a certain western European country actually come up with a collusionist gov't, after rolling over and playing dead?

[burmashave]

Thanks, Medic.  I didn't know about the Bulgarians and Albanians.  I'll pass that along.

I just checked on the story about the star.  I, too, had believed it.  Unfortunately it is a myth; however, the reality is just as brave.  Until late in the war, Denmark had successfully resisted German efforts to deport its Jews.  Once the Germans decided to move against Danish Jews, a Danish spy caught wind of the plans and spread the alert.  Subsequent to the alert, Danes mobilized to smuggle them out of the country.  Sweden received nearly all of Denmark's Jews.  Seven percent of Denmark's Jews were caught; however, the Danish government used its influence to see that they received care packages, and more importantly, Danish officials successfully pressured German authorities to keep Danish Jews out of death camps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_the_Danish_Jews

As for the collusionist government, that may be possible.  Would that have been the same country that fired on Americans during African landings?

[gerhed]

Norwegians are still not too pleased with Sweden's "neutrality".
There were a lot of bad actors.

[BobbyR]

Stop beating around the bush. FRANCE bent over for the Germans and loved it. We should have let them keep it.  Danes, Poles, Dutch and others at least tried.

[upperlake04]

   A devils advocate post here    History is complex. Marshall Petains' Vichy government should be separated from the French populace. As we all know, government agendas are not always in lock step with the general population.
   In 1939-40  Denmark, Poland, Belgium and the Netherlands fell quickly to the German Blitzkrieg who, allied with Russia, were unstoppable.  France was next -  and 92,000 French soldiers were lost in the Battle of France 1939-40 in a futile attempt to stop the Nazis. 
   You have to remember that in June 1940 only the United Kingdom and the  Commonwealth countries stood between the Germans and world domination, and the outcome of the war was extremely uncertain.   Russia wouldn't turn for another year and the US wouldn't enter for another year and a half.  Faced with the inevitable, the Vichy government chose to capitulate to spare its people and infrastructure. There is still a great deal of shame, anguish, and recrimination in France over this period of its history.   In hindsight, the decision was wrong,  but the view would be different today if Germany had won the war.
   France lost another 58,000 soldiers on the Western Front 1940-1945, and another 20,000 in the Resistance.

[burmashave]

All of middle Europe fell; however, citizens of some countries resisted more than others.  Besides, my original post is about the fact that we hear little about those efforts which were the bravest.  The Vichy government relieved the Germans of the need to garrison much of the country.  Untold numbers of Jews and other "undesirables" were shipped east from France to German concentration and death camps.  20,000 French may have perished in the Resistance; however, the relatively peaceful German occupation of France implies that the number of collaborators was far greater.  It seems that after the war, everyone either was a member of the Resistance or close to someone who was.  Incidentally, the US is not immune from the same type of chest thumping.   It seems that there are about 10,000 homes and inns that claim to have been part of the Underground Railroad during the Civil War, despite the fact that the number of slaves rescued is fewer than is generally thought.

It is true that French initially fired on American troops landing in Africa.  General De Gaulle was an absolutely unqualified pain in the Allied rear, so much so that he refused to broadcast a message of Allied support prior to the Normandy landings.  If you read _Citizen_Soldiers_, you'll likely be shocked to discover that French citizens were "complaining" about liberation as soon as Allied forces crossed into Belgium.  The French saying went, "Things were better off under the Germans." 

Yet, we hear little about countries whose citizens exhibited extraordinary bravery.  For example, Denmark did just about all it could to thwart German production efforts in their country.  They actually turned out in massive labor strikes in opposition to armed German soldiers.  Prior to today, I had not known of the courageous efforts in Bulgaria and Albania.  Talk is inversely proportional to action.

[scunny]

You have to remember that in June 1940 only the United Kingdom and the  Commonwealth countries stood between the Germans and world domination, and the outcome of the war was extremely uncertain
If my memory is still intact(doubtful) New Zealand was the first country to declare war on Germany, courtesy of the date line 

[Buber]

One of the longest battles in Europe in WWII was the German effort to destroy the Warsaw ghetto.  Jewish underground fighters held out against ground and air assaults longer than some European armies, with almost no support from the Polish underground.

Hmm, as a Pole (and atheist on top of that, I'm really independent), I would only say this - I was many times in Jerusalem, and there's the little forest of trees planted by the people who saved Jews during II WW. I dont' know the details, but the fact stands - vast majority of those trees were planted by Poles.

As for underground - if you dont look at the Russian armies, Poland had biggest and most active underground forces in the whole war. And that's a fact.
And Polish AK (underground army) was supporting the Ghetto uprising (name of Jewish organization was Żegota) a lot, but mainly with materiel.
Coming to biggest undergound battle it was Warsaw uprising in sept. 1944, when Russian army just stood on the other side on the river and NEVER LIFETD A FINGER to help Poles. Allies did a lot, mainly dropping supplies. This battle involved whole divisions of German army, and that's the main reason why Warsaw afterward was practically flattened.

And last note - statistically speaking Poland lost the most of its population, soldiers, country heritage, buildings, etc. From all countries involved. Germans didnt liked us, neither Russians, and they were fighting on our ground. Go figure.

Just to set the record straighter...., and not taking out anything from the Danes, or Dutch, or Maquis in France. We just did it on a MUCH bigger scale.

[burmashave]

...Just to set the record straighter...., and not taking out anything from the Danes, or Dutch, or Maquis in France. We just did it on a MUCH bigger scale.

Thanks for the scoop.  It was my original intent to point out some heroic efforts that have gone unnoticed, although I just couldn't help taking some swipes at a country who talks endlessly about its resistance to Nazi forces.

[edit 30 March] I didn't know about the extent of the Polish underground; however, these are some things I do know about Poland:

1) I'll never forget the inspiration of the 1980's.  A group of **shipyard** workers, led by Walensa, said FU to the Sovs and put the first massive chink in the heretofore thought invincible Soviet armor.  This inspirational chink became the start of the downfall of the Soviet Union.  Note that I do not deny the heroic efforts of the Czechs and Hungarians who were left hanging by the US.

Prior to Walensa, almost everyone -- except some visionaries like Reagan -- thought the Soviet Union was invincible; however, Walensa and the Poles knew they were not.  There's a lesson here that should not be missed by anyone.  Our enemies almost always seem invincible.  If not, we would not likely think that they are enemies.  Consider that many in the US thought the following armies were invincible prior to to a face off:

  - The Japanese in WWII, with their fanatical devotion to the Emperor:  That suicidal devotion ultimately became a key aspect of their downfall.

  - The Germans in WWII, with their military prowess and superior weaponry:  Resources are always scarce.  A strategy of superior weapons always translates to inferior numbers.  Patton proved that it was possible to beat the p*ss out of the vaunted German armor.  Armored attack works both ways, especially on ground that favors tanks.  The Russians proved that a force, beaten at the outset, could retrench and kick the Nazis back to Berlin.

  - The Chinese in Korea:  Read _Colder_than_Hell_ written about the Chosin Resevoir battle.  1 Marine division, surrounded by 10-11 Chinese divisions fought their way out of a frozen lake, and endured temperatures of -40 F.  They broke through and fought -- with minimal resupply -- back 100 miles while bringing out all their wounded, dead and moving equipment -- all while fighting the Chinese in their rear.  The Chinese fought in mass wave attacks that required small groups of Marines to keep their machine guns cool by packing snow on them.  By the way, and I'm sure I've posted this before, once the Marines became surrounded, the famous Marine Chesty Puller radioed, "We've been looking for the enemy some time now.  We're surrounded.  That simplifies things."

  - The Soviet Union for the entire duration of the Cold War:  Peaceful coexistence with a murderous and oppressive empire?  No, said Welensa, the Pope, Reagan and some conservatives.

Why does this matter?  We have forces now that some think are invincible.  Suicidal tendencies usually become just that.

2) Check a topographical map.  Poland is a relatively flat country that lies in a horrible strategic position sandwiched between two massive and usually antagonistic countries.

3) Poles are among the most, if not the most, strident supporters of our effort in Iraq.  They know what it is to be oppressed, and they know what it is to fight back. 

4) As I recall, Polish special forces are respected worldwide.

Walensa and the shipyard workers.  The entire might of the Soviet Union.  Brass balls.  Without a doubt. 

I could prolly come up with something else.  But I gotta run.

[Uncle Ernie]

I'm not sure I'm getting the point here.  Sorry.  Is this a pat on the back for past heroic efforts?  A comparison to the war in Iraq somehow?

[Rushoid]

Just a quick semi-hijack: I'm on vacation in the South and visited the National WWII Museum in New Orleans on Tuesday. http://www.ddaymuseum.org/ Gotta say that if you have even a remote chance of getting to N.O. you should visit the museum. Allow 4-5 hours if you're a WWII nut, 2.5-3 hours if you don't think you're very interested (but you will be once you get there). I'll post a pic of a cool DKW NZ350 they have when I get home.

[upperlake04]

my original post is about the fact that we hear little about those efforts which were the bravest.

 Thats  impossible to quantify Burma.  Of course there were countless acts of courage in every country during the Second World War and to coyly dismiss all 42 million inhabitants of one of them isn't fair or realistic.  No doubt there were  examples of "Things were better off under the Germans",  the Alsace-Lorraine area of France has a common border with Germany, has cultural, linguistic and historical ties to Germany and was a part of Germany during much of its history. These people may have considered themselves liberated under the Germans.
 The world isn't black and white but infinite shades of grey..

[BobbyR]

One of the longest battles in Europe in WWII was the German effort to destroy the Warsaw ghetto.  Jewish underground fighters held out against ground and air assaults longer than some European armies, with almost no support from the Polish underground.

Hmm, as a Pole (and atheist on top of that, I'm really independent), I would only say this - I was many times in Jerusalem, and there's the little forest of trees planted by the people who saved Jews during II WW. I dont' know the details, but the fact stands - vast majority of those trees were planted by Poles.

As for underground - if you dont look at the Russian armies, Poland had biggest and most active underground forces in the whole war. And that's a fact.
And Polish AK (underground army) was supporting the Ghetto uprising (name of Jewish organization was Żegota) a lot, but mainly with materiel.
Coming to biggest undergound battle it was Warsaw uprising in sept. 1944, when Russian army just stood on the other side on the river and NEVER LIFETD A FINGER to help Poles. Allies did a lot, mainly dropping supplies. This battle involved whole divisions of German army, and that's the main reason why Warsaw afterward was practically flattened.

And last note - statistically speaking Poland lost the most of its population, soldiers, country heritage, buildings, etc. From all countries involved. Germans didnt liked us, neither Russians, and they were fighting on our ground. Go figure.

Just to set the record straighter...., and not taking out anything from the Danes, or Dutch, or Maquis in France. We just did it on a MUCH bigger scale.

My Mother in law lived through the war in Poland. It was not pretty to say the least. When the Nazis came into the town she and her brother would head out into the woods. The resistance would care of them. My Father in law was first wave at Normandy, as they advanced the freedom loving French would point them away from the Germans.   

[CrisPDuk]

Russian army just stood on the other side on the river and NEVER LIFETD A FINGER to help Poles.

This hardly surprising, if it wasn't for the activities of the Russians in the forests of Katyn the Polish army might actually have stood a chance

[crazypj]

So America is going to send back the Statue of Liberty in protest?
BTW, John Wayne didn't win the war.
 I still don't get the reason for this, if you have something to say, say it.
All I see is bigger badder bester US military is invincible, does that mean your trying to overthrow it?
Only support economically viable targets for 'reparations'?
Cant let the fuzzy wuzzy South Africans have an effective mercenary group, but its OK for a retired general in Texas to sell to the highest bidder. ( as long as its 'humanitarian'  and semi supported by US)
If Saddam had given Bush a bunch of oil he'd probably still be alive today.
World police or world bully?
PJ

[upperlake04]

My Father in law was first wave at Normandy, as they advanced the freedom loving French would point them away from the Germans.   

  Its interesting how a single anecdote can apparently colour a viewpoint bigger than the event  My uncle was on Invasion D-Day+1 and his job was to drive supplies to the front each night. He told of delivering fuel to Polish tanks south of Falaise when the Germans were retreating. These Poles had not been home for years,  some had no contact with their families in that time and were going on stories of how things were back in Poland. They were a hard and determined group. In their eagerness,  they would advance until they ran out of fuel and then wait impatiently for resupply. My uncle spoke with great admiration for these Poles and in consequence I do too.
  Its a sad thing that the numbers of men who were actually there are getting smaller every year. God I miss him

[Buber]

Hey fols! Its nice to see that some of teh info is seeping through. On that "educational" note - few more tidbits about Poles - BTW, any Belgians out there? I don't intend to monopolizr the topic  ..

Anyway - Walesa and our workers - this is little know fact outside Poland (why it should anyway?) but since end of WWII practically every 10 yrs we had some kind of worker protests in Poland. In 68, 72, 80, and every time people were dying on teh streets - not in big numbers, but nevertheless communists were trying. We finally broke through

Now a little note about Poles as a nation - we are great for great things - give us some kind of freedom fight (the best for our freedom of course, but Mr. Pulaski just became a honorary citizen of US..) and you practically can't beat us. Give us a great task - reviving a country that wasn't on the map of Europe for 100 yrs (that was after WW I) - and we are fantastic! Now give us a normal, free country to run, and we are total crap. Seriously, our politicians (all of them) are such a sorry bunch. Our people are tossing themselves between left ad right, without any clear direction... Staying sane in Poland is a bit difficult, especially when now i can go and live wherever I want - but i like my place!

And last - there's the anecdote: When God was dividing Europe between different nationalities he said - "I'm gonna play a nasty trick on Poles. I will put them right between Russians and Germans..." Another - In the communist camp Poland was teh funniest barrack....

And privately - as a member of slavic nation is soooo much easier for me to "connect" with e.g. Russians than Germans or French..... Funny....

Anyway - history is written by winners, but fortunately there are still folks, like you describe above, whose parents still exchange letters, and that's a proof that as a whole we are decent folks, only sometimes misled by various fanatics...

So, keep smiling, and hop on that bike - sun is shining, and let me bloat privately - since last summer I can do it together with my wife!! She drives Virago though, so nothings is perfect  , but we still have ENORMOUS fun riding together....

Very best regards to everybody - and now seroiusly - if you will be ever travelling close to the south-west corner of Poland (I'm 150km from Prague, and 250 from Berlin) just drop me a note - I wil show you Poland that you never thought may exist.....