Author Topic: DIY replacement body panels  (Read 16602 times)

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Offline francisew

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DIY replacement body panels
« on: April 06, 2007, 04:11:43 PM »
Hi Guys,

The left and right body panels on my '83 cb650 sc are in far from perfect condition, and have already been patched up several times. (Yesterday night the left side panel started to crack in a way that looks rather un-fixable)

I thought about buying used ones off ebay, but two things are holding me back:
(1) I'm worried the pieces are already damaged, will be very fragile due to their age, or will get damaged in shipping (as another post indicated,
(2) That the cost (15$ per cover + 30$ shipping) is pretty significant. Even more expensive because I'll need to paint the new parts to match my bike.

I'm considering making replicas of my current panels from fiberglass.  8) I'd like to try to get something similar to what the nice fiberglass helmets look like...



I think that I'll need to take the old ones (which are cracked, but otherwise intact), and make a primary mold. Maybe using a vacuum former on some soft plastic like polyethylene? (see: http://www.instructables.com/id/ELPFLBN6A9EYJ3I2F0?ALLSTEPS ) Then by filling the plastic mold with a nice woven fiberglass and resin in order to cast new panels. Hopefully the new ones would be a little more flexible and tougher than the originals. I'm not quite sure how to replicate the pegs and get them into position, but possibly making the back of the panels in a second casting step with a similar method.

All that would probably cost less than 'ebaying' the proper panels.

Has anyone tried anything like this?

Thanks,
Francis




« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 02:01:31 AM by SteveD CB500F »

Offline francisew

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2007, 11:13:10 AM »
I looked at the panels again, and think a second option is just to add a few layers of fiberglass on the inside, behind the existing panels. I don't think it would be as strong as new fiber panels. I'm also not sure if there is clearance.

Regarding making the whole panel from fiberglass, I'd need to first make a plastic mold. Today I found a place that sells HDPE sheets (recycling code #2). By heating up the sheet in my oven, while it's held in a frame, I could make it soft, then vacuum form it over the outer portion of the body panel. This should give a high quality replica of the surface contour of the outside of the panel. I might be able to just layer the fiberglass carefully so that it's flat and contoured to the inside of the mold, thus avoiding the need for a mold for the inside of the panels. I might also partially embed some big paper clips onto the inside surface to hold the owner's manual in place.

Then I'd need to come up with a way of making the mounting pegs. I could try using a short screw, and wrapping the carbon fiber cloth around it to create a mounting peg-shape. Then coat it in resin and hope it's solid enough that the pegs don't snap off. Or maybe I should use some kind of foam to turn small foam pegs, then coat them with the resin...

Has anyone worked with carbon fiber and resin to make body panels?

Would carbon-fiber/resin panels be flexible enough to mount onto the frame without breaking?

Is it better to just reinforce the inside of the old panels? (when I had the bike painted last spring, they used some kind of plastic putty to fix the pre-existing cracks, but now they're coming back)

Thanks,
Francis


Offline DJ_AX

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2007, 07:45:47 PM »
I'm currently setting up the equipment and processes for manufacturing molded parts (climbing holds to be exact)
We'll be using a polyurethane based material.. good strong but flexible stuff.

I've been entertaining the thought of utilizing the stuff to make the side panels.
So far I've determined that.. it can be done. but...
The biggest hurdles are: I'd need originals to make the copies of.
and it wouldn't be cost effective unless I can sell a pretty fair amount of 'em.

I think you'd be better off doing a proper repair.
~ Vincent . . . '75 CB750 K5 . . . '97 BMW r1100rt . . . had; '75 CB550 K1 (sold) . . .  '73 CB350G (gifted) HELL YEAH!
Disclaimer: I could be wrong. :)

Offline francisew

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2007, 05:40:37 AM »
Hi,

I completely agree, I'd be better off with a proper repair. Unfortunately, even after proper repairs, the panels are falling apart again. 25 year old plastics just don't do so well. Yesterday I did the vacuum forming to make the primary plastic moulds. It worked out pretty well considering that I was working with 20$ worth of material in my garage. I'll post more about it later.

I'm not sure if it's cost effective to be manufacturing them professionally. I think it's well worth it for myself though, after all, there's no point in just buying another set of 25 year old plastic panels so that I can watch them disintegrate also.

Manufacturing climbing holds is a pretty cool idea. They're unbelievably expensive considering they're fairly straightforward objects.

Anyhow, I'm past the point of no return on this project, so now it's just a matter of refinement and patience. :D

Thanks,
Francis




I'm currently setting up the equipment and processes for manufacturing molded parts (climbing holds to be exact)
We'll be using a polyurethane based material.. good strong but flexible stuff.

I've been entertaining the thought of utilizing the stuff to make the side panels.
So far I've determined that.. it can be done. but...
The biggest hurdles are: I'd need originals to make the copies of.
and it wouldn't be cost effective unless I can sell a pretty fair amount of 'em.

I think you'd be better off doing a proper repair.

Offline cb350twin

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2007, 01:06:25 PM »
That helmet is the HJC AC-12 carbon. It is made of carbon fiber not fiber glass. Anyone own this helmet?  I was thinking of getting one..
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Offline francisew

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2007, 08:12:05 PM »
You're right. It's carbon fiber. That's what I meant to say.

Anyhow, the helmet is just the carbon fiber weave in fiberglass resin. I think the fiberglass is just carbon fiber that isn't woven(?).

I have seen the helmet in person, and it's really nice looking.

I have an older HJC AC-11 that I love, but the newer models don't fit well.

That helmet is the HJC AC-12 carbon. It is made of carbon fiber not fiber glass. Anyone own this helmet?  I was thinking of getting one..

MORE IMPORTANTLY. Yesterday I made the vacuum thermoformed ABS molds for replicating the body panels. It went well, though there was definitely room for improvement in my techniques.

I'll post a full web page about it, and post a link when done.

Francis

Offline oldfordguy

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2007, 11:04:41 AM »
Francis:

The resin used in these type of molded parts is usually either polyester or epoxy resin (epoxy being the best to use as it is more resistant to gasoline, they even sell a specific type for making gas tanks.)  The cloth/reinforcement/aggregate  is either fiberglass or carbon fiber cloth.  By the way, have you priced carbon fiber cloth?  It would surprise me if you would be able to make these cheaper than buying replacements.  Fiberglass might be a viable alternative, though.  I have cast a lot of fiberglass parts (mostly for model aircraft) and for the molds I have used three different methods, depending on the shape of the part.  For simple parts like cowlings, I like to use a type of portland cement called "Hydrocal" which you mix up like plaster of paris and pour over the part (being secured in the bottome of a box) and let set (15-20 mins.)  This makes a very nice mold, with a finish as good as the original part.  For things like wheel pants (which are hollow with a small opening) a two piece mold made from fiberglass works best.  Fiberglass molds are the best idea if you plan to make a bunch of copies, because they are very durable.  For more complicated shapes, using latex rubber for the mold allows it to be stretched to remove it after the part has set up, so things with compound curves and such can be molded this way.  For larger parts you may have to use something like plaster of paris to provide strength to the latex to avoid having a warped part.  The best thing to use for a mold release on the rigid molds (fiberglass or hydrocal) is polyvinyl alcohol (PVA), which is water soluble and won't cause a problem when you paint the part (many mold release agents sold leave a residue that make it harder to get paint to stick.)  My wife uses a cucumber facial mask that is mostly PVA, and I have used this with great success when I ran out of pure PVA (it also smells better, and you don't have to buy a gallon at a time, a little goes a long way.)

Matt

Offline francisew

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2007, 03:38:37 PM »
Hi Matt,

That's really helpful.

I can't find the product online, but I found a woven carbon fiber product for less than 20$ that would easily suffice for the 2 body panels. (I'm not sure if it's fiberglass or carbon fiber. It's a white woven fabric. Then again, it doesn't really matter to me.) The resin is another 20$.  I saw that at my local Canadian Tire.

Overall, (including the cost of the ABS plastic for the molds) it's much less expensive than ordering the used panels. But more importantly, it's  fun, otherwise I wouldn't be making new ones. :) I'm also going to buy some standard art clay to re-form the molds more precisely (10$?). I won't bother firing the clay, I'll just let it dry for a day or two...

Thanks for the face-mask PVA tip!

I hadn't heard of hydrocal before. I thought of using plaster of Paris, but it seems fairly messy... I don't have experience using them either...

I've used silicone rubber molds in the past. They're great, but they cost the earth. In particular I have used Smooth-On "crystal clear" series hard plastics and Smooth-On liquid rubber. ( http://www.smooth-on.com )

One of the problems was that my pieces were already relatively degraded. Though I wish I hadn't damaged them so much while doing the vacuum forming...

Just to clarify, I'll be making the new panels out of the fiberglass & resin, and I'm making the molds using the 20 thou ABS plastic with wax and PVA as mold-release agents.

Francis

PS. my preliminary web page about the vacuum forming is online at http://www.esmonde-white.com/vacuum_forming.html

Offline oldfordguy

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2007, 07:46:02 AM »
Francis:
If its white, its probably fiberglass cloth.  Carbon fiber cloth is ususally black, and is significantly more expensive.  Check this website:
http://www.fibreglast.com/showproducts-category-Carbon+Fiber+%28Graphite%29+Fabrics+%26+Tapes-15.html   I understand about the DIY aspect, I've been known to go to great lengths to make something I could have bought just so I could say "I made it!"  I think there is probably a little bit of that in all of us here, or we wouldn't be interested in these old bikes. ;D Let us know how it turns out.

Offline francisew

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2007, 09:46:36 PM »
Hi Matt,

This weekend I took a bit of a break from the body panels. I completely cleaned & rebuilt my carbs, cleaned and lubed the spedometer, choke and throttle cables, changed the front light, changed the front brake pads, and did all kinds of other stuff.

At the same time, I'm trying to make nice clay replicas of the original panels, so that I can make a cleaner ABS mold for the fiberglass panels...  Unfortunately, the first clay replica's I tried to make were too thin, and cracked when I was touching them up... I'm trying again with more clay. I think it's going to work out really nicely in the end.

I'll have to find a digital camera somewhere, so that I can post some photos.

On the downside, on the first nice day of riding, I was pulled over by the police because "it's suspicious to be riding a motorcycle this early in the season" (no ticket, they just wanted to check my registration). Is that normal? I've never been pulled over just because they wanted to check my registration before.

Francis

(The attachment is a photo of the fiberglass I bought- $9.99 Canadian for about 6 feet off the roll.:D )
« Last Edit: April 15, 2007, 09:51:54 PM by francisew »

Offline CB750R

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2007, 10:22:54 PM »
Yeah thats woven glass cloth, it'll end up mostly clear in your resin so you won't get much of a visual from the cloth itself. I attempted making a body panel once, it went alright but I never finished it because I got so sick from the fumes, I had a headache for three days.  I too used the woven cloth, but if I was to do it again I'd use the random strand glass, as I had a lot of trouble laying down the woven cloth without wrinkles in the corners of my side cover. The random strand mat glass is like chopped up glass fibers, that you can more easily arrange around the curves and corners of your sidecover, unlike a woven cloth that you have to fold and cut like a conventional textile.  you'll also need multiple layers of glass cloth to achieve a strength and stiffness suitable to use as a side cover, my single layer of cloth and epoxy is still on my styrofoam mold, but is paper thin and super flexy.   I believe that the carbon weave look is accomplished by using a gel like top coat on the helmet, it requires a flawless lay up of the underlying cloth or else you end up seeing it, not exactly the type of finish I'd shoot for on a first attempt!!

Offline francisew

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2007, 07:25:50 AM »
Hi CBR750,

Do you know how many layers should give a panel rigid enough to withstand the wind, while still being flexible enough to not break (chip or crack) when being installed onto the (slightly) distorted bike mounting pegs?

I'm thinking 4 layers or thereabouts.

I guess the fumes will be pretty bad. I'm not quite sure where I'll make the panels, but I might do it at my university lab. I'm a chemist, so I might be able to make the panels in a fume hood. How long do you think it'll need to set for?

i think I'll try sewing the fiberglass to the ABS mold before adding the resin. Just a couple of threads to hold the cloth in place before soaking it with resin. Maybe even staples. Then I can use a stiff brush to dab against the fiberglass weave until it's completely permeated. Once dry, I'll try to paint another coat of resin onto the panel. I may also try spray-gluing a thin piece of fabric between the fiberglass layers, to keep the weave from distorting when I'm coating it with resin.

Does anyone know if it's possible to dye the fiberglass before casting? Or mixing a transparent colourant into the resin itself? It'd be neat to try to give the panels a blue tint.

Thanks,
Francis

Offline merc2dogs

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2007, 08:25:52 AM »

 For your molds, if you fill the back with spray foam it will stiffen them up enough to make accurate copies, with heat forming, the resin may produce enough heat to deform the molds so they'll noty come out exactly right.

  to hold the material in place, use "T" headed straight pins, most sewing shops carry them, built a front end for a fiat 850 spider years ago, raided my Grammas sewing cabinet, and those pins worked so well I keep a pack around for any fiberglass work. Lay out the cloth trimming it for best lay, pin it down, brush on some resin then pull the pins when it starts to gell. I use a small hooked pick so I can pull them without disturbing the resin.

 My molds are generally for one off parts, either for a solitary project or to make a production mold from, so low cost is normally the main concern.  what I normally use is spray foam or plywood sometimes styrofoam depending on size to produce a base to start from, then apply a thick coat of a fine plaster that will sand to a smooth finish. sculpt it then sand and finish with a very smooth coat of paint, normally use household latex paint. then pull a mold off that. for one off projects I do the same but allow for the thickness of the part itself and use it as a plug, requires carefull finishing of the part as you're working on the finished side.

 also, Epoxy resin is much stronger than regular polyester resin, so for a part that is subjected to stress, it may be the better way to go.

 All resins are sunlight sensitive and break down with exposure to UV, (reason why gell coat chalks) most clear fiberglass has a UV blocker of some sort, so if you want to see the weave, maybe a 'candy' paint?

 Check an auto paint supplier, see what they use to custom blend poly or epoxy paints.

ken.

Offline CB750R

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2007, 07:13:59 PM »
you got pretty much the extent of my fiberglass knowledge on the first post 4 sounds like a good starting point, if too soft you can always add more to the backside! true epoxy is harder to find than polyester resin, yet is more fuel resistant like stated in an earlier thread, I might give it another go, just not in a garage in the winter in canada, with the door cracked half a foot for ventilation....

Offline francisew

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2007, 07:45:28 PM »
Very interesting. Good to know I'm not completely off base in thinking that pinning the weave down will work.

I hadn't realized how that the resin will generate lots of heat. I'll try using some stiff foam to coat the backside of the mold.

Nor do I know much about the different epoxy resins available. I guess an auto body shop or specialized auto supply store might have the higher grade epoxy resin? Do you happen to know what is used as a UV blocker? How long should it take for the epoxy to dry/solidify? I think I read that it's around a 15-20 minute pot life, but there was nothing about the suggested full cure time. Will the panels smell strongly for more than a few days?

I'm not as concerned about the gas resistance of the panels, since it's for the two side panels, and I've never spilled a drop on them (unlike my tank... d'oh).

I'll try calling a few auto paint stores tomorrow.

Thanks again!

Francis

Offline CB750R

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2007, 09:54:47 PM »
auto body shops will most likely only carry polyester resins, unless they deal with real specialty like fiberglass tanks, your more likely finding epoxy resins at specialty wood working, or marine supply. type in west system, and system 3 in google and check them out. Happy reading!

Offline ic455

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2007, 11:09:20 PM »
Everybody probably knows about this already, but here it is anyways:

http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product/tf-VehicleBrowse/s-10101/Pr-p_Product.CATENTRY_ID:2000597/p-2000597/N-111+1976+200730429+600014390/c-10111

These are also available from Dennis Kirk and CRC II for about the same price.

Offline francisew

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2007, 07:19:50 AM »
Hey IC455,

That is a cool link. I hadn't seen that before.

Unfortunately, they don't carry panels for my bike. ('83 CB650 SC) :(

Again, I could also buy some used panels from a scrapyard, but I bet they'll also be crumbling before long...

Francis

Offline ic455

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2007, 10:27:46 PM »
Hey IC455,

That is a cool link. I hadn't seen that before.

Unfortunately, they don't carry panels for my bike. ('83 CB650 SC) :(

Again, I could also buy some used panels from a scrapyard, but I bet they'll also be crumbling before long...

Francis


Too true, the old ones are getting hard to find, even harder to find good ones.  I took a bit of a hiatus from my K6 and when I got back to it I see that JC Whitney, Dennis Kirk and CRC all have repop ABS side covers for alot of the SOHCs!  Still can't get the grin offa my face ;D  maybe it won't be long til they get something going for you scoot, too!

Offline francisew

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2007, 10:37:35 AM »
Last week I made ABS molds using vacuum forming on the original panels. Unfortuntely, the panels were slightly damaged, and the ABS mold wasn't as nice as I'd hoped.

This week, I've been working on making the clay replicas of the body panels, from which to make a better ABS mold.

Here are two photos: one of the (thin, white plastic) ABS mold, and one of the clay replica. These are for the right side panel (covering the battery).

A few hints: If using clay, make it thick. Like an inch or so thick. Otherwise big cracks form when it dries, and the panels snaps into bits. :(

I picked up 5kg of clay, and have been able to make both panels, and much around a bit after making beginner mistakes. I ground up the first (Cracked and broken) versions, and soaked them in water to re-use the clay. It's going nicely now that I made them thick.

Also, it's easy to sand the clay replicas down to get a nice finish, and also to add more clay/water after to get a nice smooth finish. Caution though that when you add clay on the surface, it'll tend to develop surface cracks, as it dries as a clay skin. I don't think the small cracks will be a big issue in the longer term once I have done a final sanding coat (and maybe add wax on the outside).

Francis

ps. All this clay work is really soothing at the end of the day. I think I might take up sculpting once I have my bike running decently. :p

Offline francisew

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2007, 04:31:56 PM »
I made the new ABS molds from the clay. They look pretty good, albeit a few small voids. Perhaps I'll be able to smooth them out using clay or wax before casting the resin inside. I'm going to give it a try with the resin I already have, since I'd like to make the new panels before next weekend.

I wish someone had pointed me to the Frank Cooper CB500 rebuild article... I ran across is at the 'Electrical Overhaul' post. Among other things, he made his own fiberglass body panels, headlight housing and mud-guard.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/frank.cooper1/frameset.html

I'll take some photos of the new molds today, and hopefully try casting the resin tonight.

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2007, 11:52:02 PM »
I have made panels before:-
To self colour to panels and get the best finish you need to paint the inside of the mould with Gel coat, this comes in various colours check boat manufacturers as suppliers of this, its just another epoxy resin but designed for sleek appearance rather than strength, then you lay up your glass mat on the gelcoat, my experience of mat is motorcycle panels are best made with chopped strand matting rather than woven because of all the tight curves. Once chopped strand mat gets resign on it in "falls apart into the curves",you need 2 layers of chopped mat.

To make the pegs, cast them in separate split moulds using fine chopped strands as a filler.  You can make your own by trimming off approx 3mm long glass strands from mat.  Now inset 3 thin gauge long nails with the heads into the peg mould such that the tails of the nails are splayed.  The nails should have loops bent into their spiky ends so they can not pull out when bonded to the inside of the panels. When you have both panel and pegs, form the nails into shape so the loops lie flat on the inside of the panel and the nail shafts roughly match the contour of the inside of the panel.

Now take more resin filled with chopped strand mat and blob on to the inside on the panel where you want the lugs.   Now press in the nails into the blobed on resin pads and smooth over the nails. Don't bother about filling the space between the base of the lug and the panel yet.

Allow the lugs to set.  Next take more resin with chopped mat filler and build up the gap between the base of the lug and the panel for strength. Finlay smooth off the lug bases when set.

Its a lot of work but think of it this way, 1) The panel main objective is good appearance, so use gel coat, 2) the lug main objective is consistent dimensions so use split moulds. 3) The bonding process objective is strength so chopped mat lots of it and reinforcement of the joint with steel hence chopped mat and nails!

Good luck it's a lot of work but like you say fun!

Oh yea in UK some company's mould the whole panel in ABS but low pressure, I bought some for my CB750 they are good
 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2007, 12:20:57 AM by slarty-bart-farst »

Offline francisew

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2007, 01:09:38 PM »
Fantastic reply.

Now it's on to finding the boat epoxy supplier nearest me.

Thanks!

Francis

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2007, 04:23:59 PM »
I have a 1981 cb650c that i almost sold recently due to financial reasons but ended up being able to hold on to her.  I worked as a mold maker for 1 year and learned a few tricks.  Here is the cheapest and most effective way to replicate the side panels on our cb's  Anyways the side covers on the 81 are similar to most other side panels and are very easy to replicate if you know what to do.  The best was to do these types of molds is to use a liquid rubber mold.  With a shore hardness of around 60.  Make yourself a box with no bottom and no top and around 1 inch larger than you panel on all sides and two inches taller.  Set the box on a work bench and clamp it down.  Coat everything in a universal release agent.  Mix rubber and pour an inch or so into the mold.  Next set the painted side of the cover down into the mold until liquid rubber comes up and into the inside of the panel.  Next pour rest of the rubber into the mold.  (Make sure there are no bubbles!)  After mold has set take it out of the mold box and using an exacto knife cut the panel out of the mold along the parting line of the panel.  As you cut make sure to cut in registration marks as you go. Do not cut the mold totally in half!  Leave as much of the mold in tack as you can.  Pull out the panel which should not be damaged at all.  Next using a large needle or small drill bit drill through the mold in various spots to create air vents so when you are injecting the plastic the air has somewhere to go.  Using a slightly larger drill bit around an 1/8th inch drill a hole into the mold so that you are injecting the plastic into the underside of the panel.   Coat the inside of the mold with a release agent and line the mold up correctly.  Wrap the mold in large 1/2inch rubber bands tightly.  Now fill  a squeeze bottle with an 1/8 inch hose attached to the end with your liquid plastic of choice.  Put the end of the hose into the hole you drilled into the mold and inject the plastic until plastic seeps out the small air holes you made earlier.  Let the mold set and then take off the rubber bands and remove your brand new injected plastic side panel.  Finish by cutting off small pieces of plastic from various air vents and there you go!  By the way these molds are good for 100s of panels.  This whole process will run you around 35 dollars if done correctly.

I will make another panel and take some pictures and maybe make a more indepth faq for anyone interested.   
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 04:26:46 PM by 81cb650C »

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: DIY replacement body panels? Advice please.
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2007, 05:54:56 PM »
Quote
I will make another panel and take some pictures and maybe make a more indepth faq for anyone interested.

This subject comes up quite often. A write-up with some pics would make a geat FAQ entry.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.