Topic: What is a "Scrambler"?

[cleveland]

I see this term here or there, but I have no idea what it means.  It is always with a small bike (CL350, CB350, ect.).  So what does it mean?

Thanks, cleveland

[74cb750]

It refers to a mc owned by someone whom has to
scramble out of the way of real dirt bikes.
just kidding,
peace,
michel

[gerhed]

Had a Honda 305 "Scrambler" that I bought new in 1966.
Best looking bike Honda made that year IMHO.
But you got in trouble if you took it off road--not enough grunt !
What I would call a "Boulevard Scrambler".

[cleveland]

So what makes is classified as a "scrambler"?  Is it those pipe?, Is it the size of the engine?  Is it a set of years?

[bill440cars]

        Back in the day, the term "Scrambler" usually meant, high pipes, skid plate, slightly larger wheels, "Knobby" (off road) tires (or at least a universal tread design tires) Honda originally used the "CL" prefix. Others came along later. The new Triumph Scrambler is a good example of what was built back in the early 60's or so. Back in that time period some would take a street bike, change the tires, throw some high pipes on it and call it a "Scrambler". Yamaha did some like that and Hondas CL models were kinda like that. I'm not knocking the Hondas (like CL72, CL77, CL350 & CL450) mind you. The SL350 was a better version and then the XLs came out (not to mention the 2 stroke versions). Does that help to give you a better idea? Just trying to elaborate a bit more on what Phil said. From what I know, the term "Scrambler" meant bikes built to participate in a track race called "Scrambles". Now I don't have all the details of just what a "Scramble Race" is all about, even though I have a good idea in my head. I'm just not prepared to explain it.   

                                                            Later on, Bill    

[TwoTired]

Scramblers were probably the dual sports of the era.  They had high pipes and skid plates under the engines.  If you took them off road and went over a log or rock or something, you didn't break off or dent the pipes, crack or dent the frame, etc.  Of course, they were still susceptible to side damage when laying them down.

I took my 305 superhawk off road a few times.  Followed shortly by replacing the head pipes.  Engines gets really loud when they fall off.  

They may have had lower sprocket ratios, too.  Climbing hills and highway cruising with the same power band issues.

Moto cross came about later..

Cheers,

[Sam Green Racing]

From an English point of veiw,...a scrambler in modern day terms is a motocross/supercross bike.

The bikes you are refering to CL SL XL are street scramblers or motorcycles capable of being riden on or off road.

I seem to remember a few CL72s ended up in the UK, had the road gear removed and were used in competition but didn't fair very well.

Sam.

[cleveland]

OK that makes sense, thanks guys!

[GroovieGhoulie]

My GF has a CL360 Scrambler.  Immediate differences between it and the CB360 are:

Drum front brake (Honda felt a drum would be better in the rough because less crap can get into it and gum it up)
Braced handlebar
High exhaust
32hp v. 34hp in the CB

The sprockets appear identical.  I've HEARD that the CL engines were cammed and tuned for a bit more midrange and torque versus the CB engines which were tuned for high RPM max power, hence the lower power output.  Those high pipes also strangled the engine at max RPM compared to the CB pipes.

[Uncle Ernie]

A couple of models (Yamaha or Suzuki?) came with 2 rear sprockets of different sizes so you'd have high or low gearing options in the field. 

[Sam Green Racing]

They should have been refered to as trail bike as they were over here, I suppose they are by todays standards, nearer to enduro bikes.

Sam.

[Jonesy]

In an old Honda manual I have, they refer to it as a kind of dirt racing, or "Scrambles".

As others have said, it's like a street-legal off-road bike.

[GroovieGhoulie]

As others have said, it's like a street-legal off-road bike.

Though there is a distinction, I think.

An Enduro is a pure dirt bike with just enough equipment to make it street legal, (lights, winkers, speedo, etc.)

A Scrambler is a pure road bike with just enough equipment to take it down a dirt road occasionally, (high pipes, braced handlebar, etc.)

I read an article from Cycle World in 1968 when the CB and CL 350s came out and they said Honda even knew the CL350 wasn't a dirt machine because, (in the words of Honda), a 350-pound machine was too heavy for off-road use and it was only intended for the occasional foray down a dirt road or out camping.  Certainly not motocrossing or whatever in stock form.

[Jeb]

Gerhed,
Is that a push mower in the background?  Your dad was as cheap as mine?

[mrbreeze]

I had an old 305 scrambler.....looked like Gerhed's except no muffler or lights. Had a Kawasaki 120 before that......it had 2 rear sprockets seperated by springs. You could put a short section of links in the chain and run the big sprocket (climb cliffs) or loosen the bolts that hold the sprockets together and the springs would put a gap between the sprockets and you could run on the small sprocket(higher speed and it could still wheel stand in 3rd gear and it was only a 4 speed).

[bill440cars]

Though there is a distinction, I think.

An Enduro is a pure dirt bike with just enough equipment to make it street legal, (lights, winkers, speedo, etc.)

A Scrambler is a pure road bike with just enough equipment to take it down a dirt road occasionally, (high pipes, braced handlebar, etc.)

I read an article from Cycle World in 1968 when the CB and CL 350s came out and they said Honda even knew the CL350 wasn't a dirt machine because, (in the words of Honda), a 350-pound machine was too heavy for off-road use and it was only intended for the occasional foray down a dirt road or out camping.  Certainly not motocrossing or whatever in stock form.

         Hey GG, Very well put. Funny how different terms pop up over the years. Sometimes a previously used term will come back with a different meaning. Example: Nerf Bars means those tubular steps (or running boards of a sort) for trucks and the term used to be (back in the 50s or 60s) for a set of custom bumpers made from rod bent into shape, welded and chrome plated. Just some info. 

                                                      Later on, Bill

[okie]

TT Scrambles were popular events in the '60s.  The course was generally flat with a couple of SMALL jumps (maybe a foot high).  NO whoops.  The bikes were usually street bikes that had been modified to do a better job on the dirt course.  My impression was that bikes like the CL77  and Yamaha Big Bear Scrambler were wanna-be scramblers that needed a lot of modification before they would be competitive.


According to the AMA:


H. TT Scrambles
1. A TT scrambles is held on an unpaved, prepared course. A
scrambles is intended more to test a riders skill than the
motorcycles speed. The course must be less than two miles
long and include left and right turns. Hills, jumps and natural
terrain are permitted. The course must be at least 20 feet
wide and include wide turns or escape routes at the end of
fast straightaways.
*2. Equipment
a. The use of knobby or motocross tires is at the promoters
option and must be advertised in advance.
*b. All liquid cooled engines must have a radiator vent hose
routed to a heat resistant catch can of at least 350cc
capacity.
3. Any of the following classes may be run, but must be run as
advertised.
*Class Engine Size
1 86cc - 125cc
2 126cc - 200cc
3 201cc - 250cc
4 251cc - 450cc
5 401cc - 505cc
6 506cc and over
7 Veteran (30 Yrs and over) 201cc-open
8 Senior (40 Yrs and over) 201cc-open
9 Super Senior (50 Yrs and over) 201cc-open
10 Vintage (Pre-1975)
11 Modern Vintage(Pre-1982)
A rider may enter any three classes, as long as his
machines meet the requirements of each class.
4. Events are run a specified number of laps, and finishing
position is determined by the number of laps completed. A
rider need not take the checkered flag to complete an event.
The race ends when the leader takes the checkered flag.

[bill440cars]

   Hey okie,  thanks for providing that bit of info. It's been a very long time since I even thought much about the actual race. They were pretty popular in Arkansas back in the 50's and 60's and I was pretty young at that time (graduated in 66'), so my memory is pretty sketchy on that.

                                                    Later on, Bill

[DammitDan]

Gerhed,
Is that a push mower in the background?  Your dad was as cheap as mine?

Wow, nice catch there Jeb!  My Dad had one of those push mowers when I was little, too 

[CharlieT]

OMG, what a bunch of youngins!!!

Here's a pic of me, circa 1966 with my Honda S-90 ( the S was for Sport, not scrambler)  that I raced in scarmbles:




Scrambles was the Americna term for what Europeans referred to as MotoCross. There were two basic types of scrambles, the ROugh Srmables and the TT Scrambles, or simply TT ( in European Racing TT refered to Tourist Trophy...road racing on rea roads...the Isle of Man TT). In the US TT scrambles or, just TT, races were held on tracks that were relatively wide and smooth, much like racing on dirt roads. You could also kind of consider them dir road race courses. Not all were real smooth, but they weren't rough, bumpy natural terrain courses either. Most had at least one decent jump in them, much more than one foot. At the speeds that could be reached on many TT course, a jump could result in the bike getting 10ft or more in the air and traveling 50-60 ft befoer landing.

Rough scrambles were held on basically natural terrain courses, the rougher the better. When Motocross first came to the US, they raced the same tracks that rough scrambles events were held on. The difference was basically i the format of the races. Scrambles were more typically races that involved one or two heats and then a final with the finish of the final determing the finish order. Races were typically ran by number of laps, such as an 8-10 lap final. Motocross was run on the same course, but ran longer races, timed, say like 30-45minutes and the race cosisted of two equal length "motos". Winner was determined by the total combiined points a rider accumulated in the two motos. A rider could win overall without actually winning either moto.

Scramblers were the predecessors of what was to later become motocross bikes. However back than it could apply to a true race bike, a bike modified for racing, or a bike built to resemble a racing, or scrambles bikes. Things were much different back then. Many folks raced their street scramblers. SOme even road them to the race. You would get a paper plate with your number on it. You'd take out your headlight lense (and take off the taillight, too) and then tape the number plate over the empty headlight shell. After the race, you put the lights back in and rode home!!!

Well, its late at night and past tis old geezers bedtime, so thats about it for this little abbreviated lesson in motorcycle history from one who lived it!


Oh, BTW...my avatar...that's me on a 1968 BSA 441 Victor Special raced it in scrambles, cross country, enduros.

[seaweb11]

Another fine example, if I do say so myself

[cleveland]

Wow this has been a rather educational thread, thanks! 

Seaweb, that is the bike I started this thread about.  Got a local guy that has one for $325 but he doesn't have a key and he says there are some clutch issues.  Of course it's not in that fine of shape either.  I told him I would buy it once he got a key because he seemed kinda shady.  Still waiting to hear back from him.

cleveland

[TedT]

Had a Honda 305 "Scrambler" that I bought new in 1966.
Best looking bike Honda made that year IMHO.
But you got in trouble if you took it off road--not enough grunt !
What I would call a "Boulevard Scrambler".

I had one of those back in college a few years ago!  Mine was a '67, and man oh man did it sound great with the TT pipes I put on it.  Never did take it off-road, mainly because I was terrified of laying it down and destroying any of the now-irreplaceable bits on it.

[bill440cars]

       Charlie T,
                 Nice shot and info there. You are right about a bunch of "youngsters" (youngins, or whatever).   There are quite a few younger than you, me and a few others. Some of the younger guys have had quite a bit of experience with these Hondas but, some of us have seen and had a bit of experience with other bikes and have seen some of these older bikes in action when they (the bikes) were in their prime. Put all that together and it turns into a pretty good mix. Back in my day, we used to go to the Scrambles and other types of events (most of which, aren't even done any more).
               
                 I remember someone referencing the weight of these "Scramblers". Back in the 50's, if you wanted to participate in an offroad type event, you basically had to build your own. Some folks used 500 & 650 Triumphs, Harley Sportsters, BSA 500 Gold Stars, 500 & 650 Twins and a variety of 2 stroke bikes and they were stripped down of anything that wasn't needed. Some built there own  Scrambler type pipes too. Those guys didn't know about light bikes.

                                                  Later on, Bill      

[mrbreeze]

Hey Charlie T.......that was my very first bike and if I'm not mistaken,it was a super 90 and not a sport 90.