Author Topic: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd  (Read 1808 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline frank44

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2
CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« on: March 24, 2025, 02:48:54 PM »
Got my 1973 CB500 running with working clutch and brakes for the first time last weekend and as I hopped on for my first test ride I found that first gear would "slip" in and out under load even when cruising at 5mph, causing severe lurching. It happened frequently and the problem subsided after shifting into second. Also I was unable to shift above second. I have avoided basically everything transmission related on the bike in a prayer that it work but it is obvious now that it doesn't (bummer). After diving into the forums I have narrowed my problem down to 2 things (and potentially a third). For ease I will list below.

1. Worn gear forks:
I have split the engine case apart and pulled the three gear forks to attempt a "hardfacing" and sanding to reduce freeplay for the dogs as they slide with the forks. The thing is, I have measured them and only one is out of the listed serviceable limit in the manual and the wear is progressive down the fork (the tips still measure manufactured thickness). They are not bent - measured using the level on my iphone - and it seems that such a small amount of wear having such a profound impact on the ability of the forks to hold the gears in place seems wrong when everything is fixed to shafts and has very little freedom to wiggle except along the direction of the shaft. This makes me think my bike as symptom 3 below and that I don't need to attempt a repair of the forks. Any advice would be helpful!

2. Sliding Shift Drum:
I have seen multiple places in the forum talk about a slight slide of the shifting drum and how it can be a culprit of loss of gears and various other things. When I removed the clutch side cover and watched the ratcheting mechanism and drum face operate when changing gears via the pedal when going 2-3 the drum would shift "out" slightly. The action on the pedal seemed to feel as though it properly moved the forks, but there was no locking click and the runner that locks on the pins in the ratcheting mechanism would run off the drum. As I said before I have seen mentions around of this issue being a thing, if someone could offer insight as to the cause and maybe a solution that would be very helpful! I tried tightening the screw on top of the case that hold the drum in place.

3. Worn gear dogs:
I am away from the motorcycle now and wont be able to check on the conditions of the dogs themselves for another week or 2. I fear they are most likely the true culprit of the "slipping" due to what i feel like is not terrible wearing on the gear forks. I will check either way but for piece of mind, I have included photos of the gear forks and am interesting in any person with experience's opinion on if the wearing is severe enough to cause these issues alone.

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,742
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2025, 03:48:29 PM »
Never seen a drum move sideways if all the correct parts are in there, middle selector is a known bad wear item and no longer available but a 350 twin is the same.
What you describe is more like the bearing half rings being missing or the needle bearings not located on dowels properly, possibly some shims missing or broken, compare carefully to the parts book diagram
EDIT
the k2 SHOULD have the later shifting and detent mechanism but anything could have been done in the past up to and including a completely different earlier engine
« Last Edit: March 24, 2025, 03:50:39 PM by bryanj »
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline scottly

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,224
  • Humboldt, AZ
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2025, 04:14:00 PM »
Worn dogs would not prevent the trans from shifting up above second gear. I would be looking at the shift drum; how far does it move laterally?
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Online Little_Phil

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 646
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2025, 04:26:14 AM »
Although the tips of the forks may measure in spec, both those forks (particularly middle) look badly worn. Wear should not occur like this unless fork not straight or shifting of drum.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2025, 04:30:34 AM by Little_Phil »

Offline Oddjob

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 679
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2025, 06:36:14 AM »
Try pulling the large bolt on the upper crankcase that holds the drum in place. There should be a large collar fitted to the pin on the bottom of that bolt, a lot go missing. Just check it's in place, if it's not the drum can move sideways. Part number 22 on this parts list.

https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb500k2-four-1973-usa_model461/partslist/E++18.html

Check to see if the gear selectors are in the right place, ie. left fitted to the right by mistake. Not sure if that's possible but it's a maybe.

I do have a couple of NOS middle selectors if needed but they ain't cheap.

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,000
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2025, 07:05:03 AM »
Frank: my suspicions are like Oddjob's here: see if there is something missing under that big bolt-like thing on the top of the cases. There will be either a short collar that fits over a stepped-down stud on the bolt, or else several parts, like a ball, spring, and collar with the hollow bolt on top.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,747
  • Big ideas....
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2025, 07:15:25 AM »
Never seen a drum move sideways if all the correct parts are in there, middle selector is a known bad wear item and no longer available but a 350 twin is the same.
What you describe is more like the bearing half rings being missing or the needle bearings not located on dowels properly, possibly some shims missing or broken, compare carefully to the parts book diagram
EDIT
the k2 SHOULD have the later shifting and detent mechanism but anything could have been done in the past up to and including a completely different earlier engine
350/360 middle fork is the same Bryan? Never heard of that and you can get those.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,742
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2025, 10:48:56 AM »
Mike, part number 24212286030 is the one only the 350 K0 to K4 and CL, there was a 250 version but not in US.
Full list according to CMS should be attached
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline frank44

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2025, 09:09:30 AM »
Thanks everyone for their insight! I am now around the bike again and can provide updates and a couple more questions for the thread.

First of all, I attempted the hard-welding while I was at school and attached are the results I got. I have a concern I did not solve the problem of it kicking out of gear as there is still a lot of play in both the left and center forks compared to the right one. To explain the measurements in the photos inner is what I got with a caliper on the part of the fork tip farthest from the gear, outer is what i got on the part closest to the gear, and overall is with the caliper across the entire fork tip. Because the forks are fixed on the drum when reassembled, I think the play is acceptable especially if the second problem below is handled but please correct me if that is not the correct action for the forks.

The guide screw collar sleeve is showing severe wear and is almost definitely the culprit to  the loss of the upper gears and I actually think it is what allowed the gears to kick out while the forks were measuring in spec. My question here is how in the world do you remove the collar from the screw? Along with that could anyone point me in the direction of a good replacement?

Also a note that the gear dogs are perfectly fine so that was great to see.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2025, 09:13:28 AM by frank44 »

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,000
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2025, 09:25:11 AM »
I can't seem to download the pix?
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Online denward17

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,806
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2025, 09:37:38 AM »
I can't seem to download the pix?

They worked for me Mark....

Are those "grind" marks on the tips of the forks normal?

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,000
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2025, 11:59:27 AM »
All I get is an error code:
"Error interpreting JPEG image file (Not a JPEG file: starts with 0x00 0x00)"

Are these cellphone pix?
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Online denward17

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,806
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2025, 12:12:29 PM »
here they are

Offline scottly

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,224
  • Humboldt, AZ
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2025, 12:20:30 PM »
All I get is an error code:
"Error interpreting JPEG image file (Not a JPEG file: starts with 0x00 0x00)"

Are these cellphone pix?
I get "sorry, Photos can't open this file because the format is currently unsupported, or the file is corrupted". I'm using Windows 10..
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Online denward17

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,806
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2025, 12:27:08 PM »
Not sure why it isn't being displayed as normal.

I took one pic and edited the size to see if it would change it.

Edit:OK, that worked.....should be all displayed below.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2025, 12:31:06 PM by denward17 »

Online denward17

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,806
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2025, 12:30:20 PM »
try again

Offline scottly

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,224
  • Humboldt, AZ
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2025, 12:45:01 PM »
That worked. Thanks Den!
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Online denward17

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,806
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2025, 12:51:48 PM »
Welcome Scottly, Are those grind marks normal?

Offline scottly

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,224
  • Humboldt, AZ
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2025, 12:55:45 PM »
No
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline Oddjob

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 679
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2025, 03:37:36 PM »
The guide screw collar should just pull off, however it looks like the pin on the guide screw it sits on has bent, maybe that’s why it won’t come off, that would pull the drum in the direction of the bend and cause all the forks to be misaligned and hence why they’ve been grinding on the gears.

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,742
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2025, 03:42:01 PM »
I agree the pin and roller need replacing, probably got one off a 550 but post from uk wont be cheap
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Oddjob

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 679
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2025, 03:45:00 PM »
550 engines don’t have the guide screw Bryan. AFAIK only the 500 has it. Might have one somewhere in a box.

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,742
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2025, 04:44:52 PM »
Yup, Kens right, i had a brain fart as the 550 has a big ball bearing to locate it
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline scottly

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,224
  • Humboldt, AZ
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2025, 09:20:26 PM »
I think the grind marks on the forks is from an attempt to resurface them after welding..
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,000
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2025, 10:13:26 PM »
I think the grind marks on the forks is from an attempt to resurface them after welding..
+1. It does look like you're not the first one to see these.
I wonder: could they have been welded-up on the wrong side of the tines? Then they would be sort of permanently misaligned. That might explain why they are being hit now?

The guide screw collar should just pull off, however it looks like the pin on the guide screw it sits on has bent, maybe that’s why it won’t come off, that would pull the drum in the direction of the bend and cause all the forks to be misaligned and hence why they’ve been grinding on the gears.
+1 on this, too. It doesn't take a lot of misalignment for the drum to shift the forks against the grooves in the gears. They only have about 0.008" clearance between the forks and gear's grooves to begin with.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline Oddjob

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 679
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2025, 10:49:02 PM »
Looking at the guide screw pic again can I point out that the kickstart shaft splines are not great. Whilst it’s down if you can find a better replacement I’d say do it. Fit new circlip if replacing it, the amount that have the circlip ping off and it all fall to pieces afterwards when you don’t fit new is worrying. I’ve thrown much better shafts away tbh.

The selector forks are the same as the CL350 I believe, common in the USA from what I understand, maybe try and source some better ones on eBay? I do have the centre and left forks nos but they won’t be cheap if you wanted to buy them.

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,214
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2nd
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2025, 12:08:29 AM »
those shift drums will walk if that guide pin and roller are worn at all,once they jump out of gear a few times heavily the dogs round out,check the slots look good aswell,see if you can find a 550 bottom end?

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,742
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: CB500K2 Transmission: Slipping in First, No Shifts Above 2ndntre
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2025, 08:05:19 AM »
Only the centre selector and drum are same as cb/cl 350
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!