Author Topic: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.  (Read 1728 times)

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Offline Raul CB750K1

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First of all, let me say that I don't want this thread to become a gun debate, we have had enough here already. It's just some thoughts about Moore's documentary style.

I've seen "Fahrenheit 9/11" before this one. I assume that when people want to make a point, they will try not to show contrary opinions, that is good for both parties. I mean, if Moore want's to make a point about people having guns, they will ask a couple of them about how many guns they do have. If the first two say that they have ten guns each, and the filmmaker have only 60 seconds to display on the film, then job done, no more asking. But if it happens that the first two interviewed have no guns, he would have to keep interviewing until he finds somebody with enough guns to show on the film.

At the end of the film they go to K-Mart headquarters with two kids that were wounded at Columbine. They stay until the PR goes down to talk to them. They wanted to express their disgust because K-Mart was selling bullets. I certainly would have not liked to be in that women' shoes, but she did well in my opinion: showed sympathy for the victims but what the heck did Moore expect from her? She is just an employee, she can't take such decisions nor make public statements just like that. The next day they returned with tens of media cameras. The spokeswoman announced that they would stop selling bullets after 90 days -I guess that's the time they guessed they would run out of inventory-. That seemed to be like a victory, but did K-Mart really stopped selling bullets? Has anybody of you recently go to K-Mart and didn't find bullets? Obviously, K-Mart had to face the loss of profit for stopping selling bullets, or the loss of profit for a possible harm on their image to the public view and the ensuing boycott. After all, they probably chose the lesser of two evils. They got rid of a problem right there, and as they didn't say their decision to stop selling bullets was definitive, they could start over again in a few months when everybody has forgotten about it.

But that's when I don't agree with Moore. It's clear their intentions were good, but wasn't they blaming the wrong one? If law allows people to buy bullets, why can't K-Mart sell them? A supermarket is not a church; they are there to make profit and corporations are not known for having strong principles. When there is money to be made, there they are. If people want to buy bullets and K-Mart doesn't sell them, people will go somewhere else. So why should K-Mart stop selling bullets and not everybody else too? Shouldn't they have appealed to congressmen to enact laws so it's not allowed to sell bullets?


Then he goes to Charlton Heston's house. I can't say I like Mr. Heston's role as president as the NRA, though I think he is an excellent actor. Well, out of the clear blue sky apears Michael Moore, rings Heston's door, and he schedule an interview for the very next morning.

Even when I can't agree with NRA principles, I can't agree with the way Moore interviewed Heston. First of all, he identified himself as member of the NRA, that seemed to me a cheap way to make Heston lower his defenses. Then there is a couple of questions, and Heston says he thinks there are more murders in American because of the violence experienced in recent american history. Moore asks then if germans, english, japanese doesn't have a violent history too, but he makes a blunder: first of all, he gets a little excited, and second, he almost doesn't let Heston talk. The actor, clever enough, starts to notice that the interview seems much more like a trap, so he just retort what his opinion is. Then, Moore talks about how the NRA had rallies in Littleton and Flint just a few days after the crimes, and Heston says he didn't know about the gunshooting. Moore asks Heston if he is willing to apologize to the citizens of both cities for being there just short after the crimes, and Heston decides the interview is over.

And this is what I don't like about how the interview was conducted: Mr. Heston was kind enough to schedule an interview with just a few hours advance. He may be right or wrong, but he has his own opinions and, from what I know, has done nothing illegal yet. I'm positive he suffered for those crimes, like did everybody else. Who would not suffer for some kids killed at gunshooting? But that's not what it as stake. In my opinion, Moore was kind of suggesting that the crimes involving guns are responsability of the NRA. What did he expect, that Heston would publicly say he was sorry for the 6-year girl killed buy a schoolmate the same age? That would show like if he feels responsible for that. If he didn't expect any sadness, that would put him as a man with no feelings. Heston opened his house's doors to give an interview and Moore abused of him in my opinion. It would have been enough to ask Heston: "Do you think it's positive that children have easy access to guns? What's the best way in your opinion to restrict the access to guns to people under age (I mean legal age)? I mean, just ask open questions so the interviewed can really express his point of view. When you are interviewing, even if you are biased (who is not?) you have to leave the interwiewe to express his opinion if you really want to know it. Otherwise, you are just lousily trying to make him tell what you want him to do, or letting him speak when he says what you want, but avoid what you don't want him to say.

As I said, I don't pretend this thread to become a gun debate. It's just some thoughts about how to interview somebody that you don't agree with, be it guns or any other subject.


That being said, I thin'k it's good there is somebody that stirs the pot a little (Moore) and create some controversy and some food for thought. May there would be a Moore in Spain too.


Raul

Offline Gordon

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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2007, 11:09:30 AM »
I already know pretty much exactly the kind of responses this topic is going to generate, and every single one of them has been argued about in dozens of other old and dead threads.  People have very strong opinions about things like this, and nobody will change anybody else's mind on an internet discussion board. 

Oh, and it probably will turn into a gun debate.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying I have a problem with you posting just about anything you like on the Open forum, I'm just expressing my opinion about the subject matter. 

Offline kghost

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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2007, 11:15:13 AM »
Lets please not confuse Micheal Moore for a Journalist.

Whatever your Political leanings...I think we can agree that he's not a journalist.

Rather an Film Maker who expounds his point of view and beliefs.
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Offline my78k

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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2007, 11:48:10 AM »
I'll steer clear of any such debate in regards to guns etc...and just say this...according to dictionary.com a documentary is defined as ". Movies, Television. based on or re-creating an actual event, era, life story, etc., that purports to be factually accurate and contains no fictional elements: "

Technically this is accurate when it comes to Moore's movies...they do report facts...just not all the facts and certainly none that he would disagree with!

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Offline eosmontana

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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2007, 11:53:41 AM »
I agree that he doesn't show all the facts..... but niether does our government or corporate marketing.... the fact is it takes multiple sources (most of them biased), and personal experience to get a well rounded view of the world.
p.s. journalists usually aren't un-biased either.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2007, 11:56:06 AM by eosmontana »

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2007, 12:13:02 PM »
I agree that he doesn't show all the facts..... but niether does our government or corporate marketing.... the fact is it takes multiple sources (most of them biased), and personal experience to get a well rounded view of the world.
p.s. journalists usually aren't un-biased either.

That's what I meant. "Conspiracy theories" are a favourite among any society. After all, there is no way to disprove a conspiracy, and denying it without proving otherwise only leads people to believe you are trying to hide the conspiracy.

What I meant is that, in general, when we feel abused we tend to look for something, somebody to put the blame on. In my opinion, it's not fair to put the blame on K-Mart for selling bullets, that is a false argument, pure sensationalism with the wounded kids showing the scars to the K-Mart PR. I liked more "Fahrenheit 9/11, there were more facts in there and less opinions, though Moore asking the congressmen whether they would send their sons to war is also sensationalism in my opinion. If somebody is old enough to go to war, is old enough to take the decision himself and not having his dad giving orders. I don't think any of the parents who sent their sons to war wanted them to die. Each one can take his own conclusions about both of the debates dealt in each documentary.

If you take the grain out of the straws, both documentaries have some information that scares me to say the least. Even giving those "facts" the benefit of doubt.

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2007, 04:01:48 AM »
Sorry for bringing this topic again to the foreground, but I thought it was fair to comment this. Along with some other of Moore's documentaries, I found one in emule titled "Michael Moore hates America". With such a name I guessed it wouldn't be flattering to him, so I downloaded to listen to contrary opinions.


Haven't seen it in full yet, but it is very well produced so it is not an amateur production. It is probably funded by the ones Moore attacks, probably the NRA, the government or the like. Well, having a peek view, I happened to fall in the Heston's speech in Columbine. In this documentary, instead of excerpts, a longer part of the speech is reproduced, with no cuts, and it definitely has a different meaning from what I saw in the "Bowling for Columbine" Turns out that Moore took parts of the speech, and shuffled them in the time frame, that is, he put first things that Heston said after, in such a way that the meaning and feeling was distorted.


Just for your information, that other documentary could be the other side of the story. I definitely will see it, I don't want to make my own opinion until I hear both sides.

Raul

Offline Uncle Ernie

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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2007, 05:24:45 AM »
I have a feeling that this is a government plant and all responses will be tracked.  Nice try Raul.
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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2007, 05:59:50 AM »
I have a feeling that this is a government plant and all responses will be tracked.  Nice try Raul.

Nothing beats a good conspiracy theory....  ;D

Offline MRieck

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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2007, 06:51:15 AM »
Documentaries are supposed to be based on objective fact...not twisted conjecture. Moore is a self serving bull#$%* artist.
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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2007, 07:07:08 AM »
What plant would that be Ernie, cannabis?  ;D

You know I've never seen a Michael Moore film, the eldest son did and
his assessment was favorable of the 9/11 documentary. Now mind you
bout our boys were homeschooled all the way through so I'm sure they
have been brainwashed by their parents. :(

Offline Bodi

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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2007, 12:53:35 PM »
I doubt if there has ever been a truly objective documentary. They document what the filmmaker wants to document.
Objecting to Mr. Moore because he's opinionated is like objecting to President Bush because he's stupid. Both facts are obvious, nobody could possibly have any confusion on the matters, so why complain?
Mr. Moore is not going to make an objective film, Mr. Bush is not going to have a bright idea. Big deal.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2007, 04:54:39 PM »
Micahel Moore is a fat little twerp. He invests his money in the companies he ridicules including a sizable chunk of Hailburton. He picks on the weak like the girl in KMart and a feeble old man. Anyone one of you with no self respect could make his films.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2007, 06:08:45 PM »
I just saw his ambush of Heston, and I think it was pretty darned underhanded.  To ask Heston to apologize to the victims of senseless crimes is just ludicrous.  Most importantly, the NRA advocates safety training and education that might have prevented that girl from having been shot in the first place.

What about his argument that Canada has 30 million people with many guns (was that because of softer gun laws?), and yet fewer gun murders.  That argument actually supports the notion that more people with guns prevents those crimes.
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Offline eosmontana

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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2007, 07:16:35 PM »
Quote
Documentaries are supposed to be based on objective fact...not twisted conjecture. Moore is a self serving bull#$%* artist.

Wars are supposed to be based on objective fact...not twisted conjecture. Neo-conservatives are self serving bull#$%* artists.

Offline ic455

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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2007, 08:49:08 PM »
never saw that movie, or the one about 9/11.  Have seen interviews with Michael Moore and I can honestly say that if I met him in person I'd stomp a mudhole in his arse then pee in it, just on principle.  He seems like a crybaby at best, hoping that jabbing sticks into people's wounds will get him some attention.....I guess it worked

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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2007, 09:33:37 PM »
Keep your eyes open for a new one.......

This one is by 2 Canadians that thought he would he a good topic for a documentary. Guess what, Mr. Moore wouldn't let them get close enough to even talk to, so they dug a bit deeper.
It's supposed to be a doozy of a film ;D  Uncovering his biased ways.

P.S. I like his films in the sense that they at least give a representation not quite as sanitized as the general media.

Offline DammitDan

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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2007, 08:06:32 AM »
never saw that movie, or the one about 9/11.  Have seen interviews with Michael Moore and I can honestly say that if I met him in person I'd stomp a mudhole in his arse then pee in it, just on principle.  He seems like a crybaby at best, hoping that jabbing sticks into people's wounds will get him some attention.....I guess it worked

And what about Bill O'Really and his no-spin unobjective "news" casts?  It seems to me that people on both sides of the argument use the same tactics, and gain equal exposure for it.  That's why I choose not to listen to any of them (Though I do wish Rush Limbaugh would be kicked off the air for his "Barak the Magic Negro" song)
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Offline ic455

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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2007, 09:31:39 AM »
never saw that movie, or the one about 9/11.  Have seen interviews with Michael Moore and I can honestly say that if I met him in person I'd stomp a mudhole in his arse then pee in it, just on principle.  He seems like a crybaby at best, hoping that jabbing sticks into people's wounds will get him some attention.....I guess it worked

And what about Bill O'Really and his no-spin unobjective "news" casts?  It seems to me that people on both sides of the argument use the same tactics, and gain equal exposure for it.  That's why I choose not to listen to any of them (Though I do wish Rush Limbaugh would be kicked off the air for his "Barak the Magic Negro" song)

Bill O'Reilly is annoying too

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2007, 09:12:50 AM »
Sorry for bringing this topic up again, but I just saw "The big one" and had to post about it. The guy enters Procter & Gamble headquarters and inquiry the two people that are ambushed about why they made 6 billion profit during the past years. The P&G representatives retort that they had to lay off people to remain competitive. Moore put the blame on the shareholders.


Even I, that I'm almost illiterate when it comes to economics, understand that the figures alone doesn't say much. 6 billion seems a lot for the household economy. If I start a business and I'm told I'm assured to make a one million profit per year, seem like a good business. But if I need to put 100 million of my money to make a one million profit, it's indeed a lousy business. If a company is unable to give their shareholders more profit than they would get by putting their money in a fund in the bank, they will run away with their money.


I'm taking a year off, but I work for a big company, and I'm the first to admit that I haven't been the most competitive worker during the last few years. Internet use during work hours, long lunch pauses, procrastination, I admit that I could have been much more profitable for my company. It is easy to put the blame on the greedy corporations, but most of the people working for big corporations are not giving as much as they can. At least that's what I've seen in most of them. We have taken our paycheck for granted in the confort of knowing that you have to screw it big time in order to be laid off, but companies had got tired of feeding lazy people and have discovered that in some other countries there is people willing to take over the job. We have to realize that we, as workers, need to be competitive not only in our home ground, but also against foreign workers. If you can't work for the minimum wage that is paid in third world countries, we at least should be able to be more productive than those people so we are worth what we are paid, otherwise our jobs will fly away.

A few years ago my company eliminated the paid overtime, and instead there is a bonus paid in case some targets are reached -targets set up in advance-. Overtime is paid by the time you work, not by how productive you are. Overtime works for plants, because it is easy to measure productivity per hour: so many units built or assembled per hour. But for other jobs, overtime is not a good way to reward outstanding work. If the company set up some goals when it comes to billing or profits, they know beforehand that if the goals are reached, a given percentage should be given to workers as bonuses. If the goals are not reached, no bonuses will be paid, regardless of how much overtime did people work. Seems to be unfair, but it's the only way both the company and the workers win in the long term.

Michael Moore seem to have forgotten all this, or maybe he never understood it. A company doesn't hire people for altruism; a company hire people because they need them to achieve their goals. You can't force a company to keep a worker forever in the same way that you can't force a worker to stay in the same company forever. People change jobs when they get better wages, and companies migrate when they can pay lower wages. Both parties look for maximum profit. If a company change its field of activity or adapt its policies to accomodate the new social uses or political situation, they will probably have to make changes. When people get marry, they think they will stay together forever but after a few years we change our minds, got tired and decide to part ways. How can we ask a company to remain the same when we don't do it ourselves.


All this being said, I have to say that I despise companies that use their political influence for their advantage. In a world in which many corporations handle budgets similars to that assigned for the country's education or sanitary program, it is clear that politicians are just puppets in the hands of corporations. It's not a matter of which party is in power, but wich company is in the shadow. Those $100.000 dinner seats with the candidate has strings attached; they expect a payback if the candidate wins the election. But as dirty all those "behind closed doors" deals appeal to everybody, if the company I work for gets a contract I will be happy to forget about my morals and enjoy a few years more of safe job...


Raul

Offline ic455

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Re: Just saw "Bowling for Columbine". Opinions about Michael Moore.
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2007, 09:47:22 AM »
Well said, Raul, I think we've all seen and participated in slacking off at work at one time or another.  Doesn't seem like a real big deal in the small scope, but if you step back and realize how many people do it then it becomes obvious how it would impact a company.