Topic: Switch under points cover

[Tracksnblades1]

Considering the difficulty and expense in finding quality bike points these days perhaps someone should reproduce this plate!

Not a bad idea!
Hmm...

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/acc-8104acc?seid=srese1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqPHVi4vFjQMVECytBh15LgKgEAQYBCABEgJqmvD_BwE

I might skip the "timing light", though: most of the ones I remember seeing didn't work, and had not many miles on them.

So with the rivet in the OP’s picture, I’m guessing there’s no changing that set of points with out the base..?
Is the timing on 2&3 still independently adjustable on that plate..

I’ve seen some Hall effect dual point conversions kits that don’t allow independently timed pickups.
Granted you may have enough slop in the holes if the machining was spot on to begin with..

Notice the four lobe V8 distributor vs the 3 lobe inline six cylinder distributor…
The six cylinder looks full adjustable like the sohc’s as compared to the two V8 ones..

[HondaMan]

Considering the difficulty and expense in finding quality bike points these days perhaps someone should reproduce this plate!

Not a bad idea!
Hmm...

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/acc-8104acc?seid=srese1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqPHVi4vFjQMVECytBh15LgKgEAQYBCABEgJqmvD_BwE

I might skip the "timing light", though: most of the ones I remember seeing didn't work, and had not many miles on them.

So with the rivet in the OP’s picture, I’m guessing there’s no changing that set of points with out the base..?
Is the time on 2&3 still independently adjustable on that plate..

I’ve seen some Hall effect dual point conversions kits that don’t allow independently timed pickups.
Granted you may have enough slop in the holes if the machining was spot on to begin with..

You've reminded me of something I (vaguely) remember about that installation so long ago: the points were, IIRC, in fixed positions and the "game" was to split the gaps so both were the same while you also rotated the plate to get #1 in time, then #2 hopefully so. The gaps will be limited by the lift-ramp height on the points cam, an important thing to remember...

[Tracksnblades1]

Considering the difficulty and expense in finding quality bike points these days perhaps someone should reproduce this plate!

Not a bad idea!
Hmm...

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/acc-8104acc?seid=srese1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqPHVi4vFjQMVECytBh15LgKgEAQYBCABEgJqmvD_BwE

I might skip the "timing light", though: most of the ones I remember seeing didn't work, and had not many miles on them.

So with the rivet in the OP’s picture, I’m guessing there’s no changing that set of points with out the base..?
Is the time on 2&3 still independently adjustable on that plate..

I’ve seen some Hall effect dual point conversions kits that don’t allow independently timed pickups.
Granted you may have enough slop in the holes if the machining was spot on to begin with..

You've reminded me of something I (vaguely) remember about that installation so long ago: the points were, IIRC, in fixed positions and the "game" was to split the gaps so both were the same while you also rotated the plate to get #1 in time, then #2 hopefully so.

You got ahead of my post… @#&%@ woolly bugger wouldn’t let me post the pics at the same time…🤕

[scottly]

Considering the difficulty and expense in finding quality bike points these days perhaps someone should reproduce this plate!

Not a bad idea!
Hmm...

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/acc-8104acc?seid=srese1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqPHVi4vFjQMVECytBh15LgKgEAQYBCABEgJqmvD_BwE

$120 for points and condensers, plus the cost of the plate. How much for the stock points plate with points and condensers? 

[HondaMan]

It's definitely pricey, but if Honda bails out on points plates, this could be a good way forward?
We could use commonly-available condensors (if those from Blue Streak, et al, still work?) and Ford or GM points. I like the idea of the Allen-key adjuster approach: I don't think Ford's points ever used that, so it would be GM-style points like in the Maxi-Dwell unit. Without that, the slots in the baseplate must be cut for adjustment, and possibly, like the usual SOHC4 design, a sub-plate made for the 2-3 side's set. Those pieces are what is making the points plates so expensive today: it's a lot of parts to make and inspect (which is why I have a box of the old plates still hanging around here).

Still, with modern CNC plasma cutters, this is a 3-5 minute build-time product, followed by accurate placement of 4 holes for mounting the points. I think it's worth a shot: I'm thinking of contacting my old alma mater (if they are still open to 'new ideas' like they were when I worked there) to see if they might make some. They have entire machining centers, now, plus the 10 or so Bridgeports and precision lathes.

[willbird]

It's definitely pricey, but if Honda bails out on points plates, this could be a good way forward?
We could use commonly-available condensors (if those from Blue Streak, et al, still work?) and Ford or GM points. I like the idea of the Allen-key adjuster approach: I don't think Ford's points ever used that, so it would be GM-style points like in the Maxi-Dwell unit. Without that, the slots in the baseplate must be cut for adjustment, and possibly, like the usual SOHC4 design, a sub-plate made for the 2-3 side's set. Those pieces are what is making the points plates so expensive today: it's a lot of parts to make and inspect (which is why I have a box of the old plates still hanging around here).

Still, with modern CNC plasma cutters, this is a 3-5 minute build-time product, followed by accurate placement of 4 holes for mounting the points. I think it's worth a shot: I'm thinking of contacting my old alma mater (if they are still open to 'new ideas' like they were when I worked there) to see if they might make some. They have entire machining centers, now, plus the 10 or so Bridgeports and precision lathes.

I have had some stuff laser cut and was really happy with the quality, pretty sure I used 16 gauge steel for those items. I can come up with a contact for a quote if we come with a CAD drawing. As in everything there is a qty when ordering that the total cost of 1, 5, or 10 parts might be the same.

Bill

[HondaMan]

It's definitely pricey, but if Honda bails out on points plates, this could be a good way forward?
We could use commonly-available condensors (if those from Blue Streak, et al, still work?) and Ford or GM points. I like the idea of the Allen-key adjuster approach: I don't think Ford's points ever used that, so it would be GM-style points like in the Maxi-Dwell unit. Without that, the slots in the baseplate must be cut for adjustment, and possibly, like the usual SOHC4 design, a sub-plate made for the 2-3 side's set. Those pieces are what is making the points plates so expensive today: it's a lot of parts to make and inspect (which is why I have a box of the old plates still hanging around here).

Still, with modern CNC plasma cutters, this is a 3-5 minute build-time product, followed by accurate placement of 4 holes for mounting the points. I think it's worth a shot: I'm thinking of contacting my old alma mater (if they are still open to 'new ideas' like they were when I worked there) to see if they might make some. They have entire machining centers, now, plus the 10 or so Bridgeports and precision lathes.

I have had some stuff laser cut and was really happy with the quality, pretty sure I used 16 gauge steel for those items. I can come up with a contact for a quote if we come with a CAD drawing. As in everything there is a qty when ordering that the total cost of 1, 5, or 10 parts might be the same.

Bill

I'll put my drawing into the usual AutoCad, or I may install an old copy of SolidWorks into my virtual WinXP, since I don't have any XP machines around anymore. Then I can at least generate some version of CAD they may be able to load and run.

First, though, have to figure out this geometry(!). I need to find some of those adjustable GM points like my old El Camino hotrod truck used to have (with the little window on the distributor).

[willbird]

It's definitely pricey, but if Honda bails out on points plates, this could be a good way forward?
We could use commonly-available condensors (if those from Blue Streak, et al, still work?) and Ford or GM points. I like the idea of the Allen-key adjuster approach: I don't think Ford's points ever used that, so it would be GM-style points like in the Maxi-Dwell unit. Without that, the slots in the baseplate must be cut for adjustment, and possibly, like the usual SOHC4 design, a sub-plate made for the 2-3 side's set. Those pieces are what is making the points plates so expensive today: it's a lot of parts to make and inspect (which is why I have a box of the old plates still hanging around here).

Still, with modern CNC plasma cutters, this is a 3-5 minute build-time product, followed by accurate placement of 4 holes for mounting the points. I think it's worth a shot: I'm thinking of contacting my old alma mater (if they are still open to 'new ideas' like they were when I worked there) to see if they might make some. They have entire machining centers, now, plus the 10 or so Bridgeports and precision lathes.

I have had some stuff laser cut and was really happy with the quality, pretty sure I used 16 gauge steel for those items. I can come up with a contact for a quote if we come with a CAD drawing. As in everything there is a qty when ordering that the total cost of 1, 5, or 10 parts might be the same.

Bill

I'll put my drawing into the usual AutoCad, or I may install an old copy of SolidWorks into my virtual WinXP, since I don't have any XP machines around anymore. Then I can at least generate some version of CAD they may be able to load and run.

First, though, have to figure out this geometry(!). I need to find some of those adjustable GM points like my old El Camino hotrod truck used to have (with the little window on the distributor).

One example here.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ado-d106ps

Now that I think about it I drew my parts for quote in Autocad and then exported to PDF, parts were very simple though in that case, a kind of a picture frame more or less.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ado-d106ps

I was adjusting a set on my 1972 350 Nova and the distro threw a spark to the allen wrench and my arm in response threw the allen wrench into the corner of the shop where I was working on the car LOL.

Bill

[HondaMan]

It's definitely pricey, but if Honda bails out on points plates, this could be a good way forward?
We could use commonly-available condensors (if those from Blue Streak, et al, still work?) and Ford or GM points. I like the idea of the Allen-key adjuster approach: I don't think Ford's points ever used that, so it would be GM-style points like in the Maxi-Dwell unit. Without that, the slots in the baseplate must be cut for adjustment, and possibly, like the usual SOHC4 design, a sub-plate made for the 2-3 side's set. Those pieces are what is making the points plates so expensive today: it's a lot of parts to make and inspect (which is why I have a box of the old plates still hanging around here).

Still, with modern CNC plasma cutters, this is a 3-5 minute build-time product, followed by accurate placement of 4 holes for mounting the points. I think it's worth a shot: I'm thinking of contacting my old alma mater (if they are still open to 'new ideas' like they were when I worked there) to see if they might make some. They have entire machining centers, now, plus the 10 or so Bridgeports and precision lathes.

I have had some stuff laser cut and was really happy with the quality, pretty sure I used 16 gauge steel for those items. I can come up with a contact for a quote if we come with a CAD drawing. As in everything there is a qty when ordering that the total cost of 1, 5, or 10 parts might be the same.

Bill

I'll put my drawing into the usual AutoCad, or I may install an old copy of SolidWorks into my virtual WinXP, since I don't have any XP machines around anymore. Then I can at least generate some version of CAD they may be able to load and run.

First, though, have to figure out this geometry(!). I need to find some of those adjustable GM points like my old El Camino hotrod truck used to have (with the little window on the distributor).

One example here.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ado-d106ps

Now that I think about it I drew my parts for quote in Autocad and then exported to PDF, parts were very simple though in that case, a kind of a picture frame more or less.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ado-d106ps

I was adjusting a set on my 1972 350 Nova and the distro threw a spark to the allen wrench and my arm in response threw the allen wrench into the corner of the shop where I was working on the car LOL.

Bill

Wow! Flashback to tuning up my old El Camino...

But, this brings up a point: I wonder if the maker of the old "Maxi-Dwell" also patented it? If so, I can't use the GM adjustable points the same way, as that would run afoul of his (her?) patent. I might be stuck with the manual-adjust approach, although once set, and tied to my Transistor Ignition, they'll likely never need setting again. I haven't set points on my 750 since 2006 when I put the box on it, except for when I stuck in a Daiichi points plate for a while just to troubleshoot them with. They just don't wear anymore....

I gotta go do some patent searches.

[CycleRanger]

Patents generally are for a period of twenty years.
If it were patented I'm sure it's long expired.

[HondaMan]

Patents generally are for a period of twenty years.
If it were patented I'm sure it's long expired.

That's generally true: mine from the 1980s had to be renewed in 2004 and expired again last year. No one needs that tech anymore, so I'm leaving them alone.
I can't find any reference on the webs for the Maxi Dwell unit (above) that is more recent than 1990-something, either, so it's likely out of patent, too. I don't wish to spend $2000 just to ask my old patent attorney to go look it up in his special software.

I think I'll just push ahead with the design of it and see how it goes from there. One thing I would like to do wit it is to use some other form of condensor (as in, capacitor) by mounting it up off the baseplate. This mounting is what causes the need for the expensive construction of the common condensor: mylar gets too soft at 200 degrees F, letting the capacitance change (downward), and most capacitors in the 0.22uF range that are commonly available are mylar-based. Ceramic capacitors could work fine, but they hate vibration and in values over 0.18uF are rare: I bought some 0.24uF versions 15+ years ago and they had to be made before shipping, took 4 months just to get them(!). They can work up to 600 degrees F, though. They were also quite large at 400v rating, about 1.5" in diameter and 3/16" thick, disc shape. Their leads are always solid wire, too, so that has to either be pigtailed into multistrand, or other capacitor types used: the solid wires will fracture themselves apart with engine vibes like ours.

Ah, the challenges of [reliable] automotive electronics...some of my old patents involved making a computer roadworthy (this was long before the PC appeared), in my case it was for offroad use in the toughest environment there is: oilfield.

[HondaMan]

I can't find any evidence of a current patent on the Maxi Dwell.
I think I'm heading for the CAD to lay out a baseplate that could fit the Blue Streak's adjustable GM points, much like the old Maxi Dwell had. Then we could also pick from condensors that are both available, and work. I'm a long-time Blue Streak fan, so I think I'll angle off in that direction.

I could see myself adjusting the timing with an Allen Wrench and not having to second-guess how far it will move when I retighten the screws. Tying it to the Transistor Ignition would make it a lifetime set-and-forget, with 100% back on the road (back to points) if the electronics got hit by an EMP or something. Although, the impedances in the Transistor Ignition are so low that I don't think anything short of being inside the temperature zone of a nuke could stop it. The whole electrics of the SOHC4 bikes are like that, too: SAC would be jealous...

[grcamna2]

Patents generally are for a period of twenty years.
If it were patented I'm sure it's long expired.

That's generally true: mine from the 1980s had to be renewed in 2004 and expired again last year. No one needs that tech anymore, so I'm leaving them alone.
I can't find any reference on the webs for the Maxi Dwell unit (above) that is more recent than 1990-something, either, so it's likely out of patent, too. I don't wish to spend $2000 just to ask my old patent attorney to go look it up in his special software.

I think I'll just push ahead with the design of it and see how it goes from there. One thing I would like to do wit it is to use some other form of condensor (as in, capacitor) by mounting it up off the baseplate. This mounting is what causes the need for the expensive construction of the common condensor: mylar gets too soft at 200 degrees F, letting the capacitance change (downward), and most capacitors in the 0.22uF range that are commonly available are mylar-based. Ceramic capacitors could work fine, but they hate vibration and in values over 0.18uF are rare: I bought some 0.24uF versions 15+ years ago and they had to be made before shipping, took 4 months just to get them(!). They can work up to 600 degrees F, though. They were also quite large at 400v rating, about 1.5" in diameter and 3/16" thick, disc shape. Their leads are always solid wire, too, so that has to either be pigtailed into multistrand, or other capacitor types used: the solid wires will fracture themselves apart with engine vibes like ours.

Ah, the challenges of [reliable] automotive electronics...some of my old patents involved making a computer roadworthy (this was long before the PC appeared), in my case it was for offroad use in the toughest environment there is: oilfield.

I like what you're saying about a capacitor mounted outboard of the points plate.
Do you think it will be better quality compared to the stock nos condensers ?

[Deltarider]

Like on other bikes, you can mount the condensers near the coils.

[HondaMan]

Like Delta says, you can mount them elsewhere. It isn't often any cooler, like on the CB/CL/SL350 or the CB/CL450 where they are next to the coils. You can even use THOSE parts with these bikes, since they are the same value.

Trouble is: don't buy new ones today: they are made by the same people who are making the crap ones we're all suffering from.

Any old points-based bike's condensors will work, though: they are/were all the same value, within 10% (For example, Suzuki's in the mid-1970s were 0.22uF, while Honda's were 0.24uF).

[bryanj]

What about fitting V8 condensers up by the coils? Also instead of or as well as?

[MauiK3]

One of my hobbies has been building my own HiFi speaker systems. To get the frequencies sent to the correct speaker (tweeter, mid, woofer) you build a frequency dividing circuit that uses capacitors and resistors. There are many sources of good capacitors, I wonder if a robust one is out there that could be remote mounted and result in a more reliable setup?

Example of one site
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/category/capacitors/3

[HondaMan]

What about fitting V8 condensers up by the coils? Also instead of or as well as?

Yep, and I have done that one a CB350 twin before. It worked fine, if you didn't mind looking at the heatshrink tubing on the wires I extended to reach to the coils (and their grounded mount bolts) and the ZIP ties holding them to the coils. I've used Toyota's [old] condensors, too, as they were close to the shape of the ones in these SOHC4 bikes: the mounting hole had to be elongated a little bit and they sat at a slight angle because if the locating pin on the points plate (no dimple was there in the Toyota condensor's mounting plate), but they were 0.24uF and 500v rated (Honda's are 400v rated, 0.24uF).

[HondaMan]

One of my hobbies has been building my own HiFi speaker systems. To get the frequencies sent to the correct speaker (tweeter, mid, woofer) you build a frequency dividing circuit that uses capacitors and resistors. There are many sources of good capacitors, I wonder if a robust one is out there that could be remote mounted and result in a more reliable setup?

Example of one site
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/category/capacitors/3

The primary type(s) of capacitors that will work are those that can:
1. Withstand the temperatures, from -20 degrees F (winter storage) to [at least] 250 degrees F.
2. Mylar plate construction or ceramic plate style, non-electrolytic types.
3. Moisture-proof.

While a little hard to find these days, the 0.20, 0.22 or 0.24uF ceramic types are often available at 500v to 1000v levels. They are a bit fragile (ceramic substrate and container) so they need to be mounted off the engine or the plate(s) inside will slowly vibrate themselves to fragments if engine-mounted. They are usually good for the temperature range we use, too. In capacitance this high, though, these will be pretty large: they will be in a disc shape, like a large coin.

You can also double-up, using 2 each of the 0.10, 1 each of (0.15+0.10), or some other combination in uF to reach the range of 0.20-0.28uF needed for our coils. Mylar and ceramic will be the least expensive, but are also not seal-healing like the automotive rolled-sheet designs tend to be (if they were made outside China, anyway...).

[CycleRanger]

I think this is a terrific project whatever the outcome. 

[willbird]

One of my hobbies has been building my own HiFi speaker systems. To get the frequencies sent to the correct speaker (tweeter, mid, woofer) you build a frequency dividing circuit that uses capacitors and resistors. There are many sources of good capacitors, I wonder if a robust one is out there that could be remote mounted and result in a more reliable setup?

Example of one site
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/category/capacitors/3

The primary type(s) of capacitors that will work are those that can:
1. Withstand the temperatures, from -20 degrees F (winter storage) to [at least] 250 degrees F.
2. Mylar plate construction or ceramic plate style, non-electrolytic types.
3. Moisture-proof.

While a little hard to find these days, the 0.20, 0.22 or 0.24uF ceramic types are often available at 500v to 1000v levels. They are a bit fragile (ceramic substrate and container) so they need to be mounted off the engine or the plate(s) inside will slowly vibrate themselves to fragments if engine-mounted. They are usually good for the temperature range we use, too. In capacitance this high, though, these will be pretty large: they will be in a disc shape, like a large coin.

You can also double-up, using 2 each of the 0.10, 1 each of (0.15+0.10), or some other combination in uF to reach the range of 0.20-0.28uF needed for our coils. Mylar and ceramic will be the least expensive, but are also not seal-healing like the automotive rolled-sheet designs tend to be (if they were made outside China, anyway...).

Mouser Part #
581-SV05AC224K

$10.20 each in qty (1), $7.75 each qty (10)
https://mou.sr/43MexXj

[MauiK3]

That Mouser one look promising!

[willbird]

That Mouser one look promising!

I was daydreaming about potting two of them into one package to protect them. Also pondered what size a simple air gap cap would have to be in order to achieve .22uF, there is a place I drive by every day that has made adjustable air gap caps for decades, some folks up the capacitance of air gap caps by filling them with oil too. Solid state is of course way simpler :-). Friend I work with is a devotee of old 60's and 70's mopars, he had a condenser fail on a road trip and he subbed in the condenser that was wired into the OEM AM radio and that got him home :-).

https://www.chrysler300club.com/tech/radio/capa/1.html

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/smp-rc1?srsltid=AfmBOopvVp7Yrnun41T3hSJFGfsNebd5TwC0tojJv2n3U6d1L9JS8jkn

[Deltarider]

Here are some I have used in my transistorized ignition, which condensers have the same specs as the condensers in the conventional ignition set up. I have the yellow now (630V), the green one is also 630V, which I have bought a couple of for € 1,- each in a dumpstore. The blue one I have used for 20 years, is now still serving in a module I made for a friend. The latter is 400V, which has proved big enough. So maybe you can find some of the green ones. Brand and type are visible in the pic.

[HondaMan]

Here are some I have used in my transistorized ignition, which condensers have the same specs as the condensers in the conventional ignition set up. I have the yellow now (630V), the green one is also 630V, which I have bought a couple of for € 1,- each in a dumpstore. The blue one I have used for 20 years, is now still serving in a module I made for a friend. The latter is 400V, which has proved big enough. So maybe you can find some of the green ones. Brand and type are visible in the pic.

Those green ones look like the polystyrene type? If so, check on their operating temperature: I once made an Ignition for a truck's engine with one of those, but after about 1 years' heavy use the case of the capacitor warped and I had to change it. I used ceramic the next time. It was very hot under this hood: the truck often idled all day on worksites.