Author Topic: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story  (Read 1480 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Don R

  • My Sandcast is a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,018
  • Saver of unloved motorcycles.
forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« on: April 18, 2025, 01:55:26 PM »
 This is a question I asked a while back and I read an article answering it.

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/engine/billet-vs-forged-pistons-manufacturing-processes-explained/
« Last Edit: May 19, 2025, 09:56:47 AM by Don R »
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Online Don R

  • My Sandcast is a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,018
  • Saver of unloved motorcycles.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,733
  • Big ideas....
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2025, 11:07:32 AM »
I was interested in the Nikasil process as it is what is used in my billet blocks. A bit disappointed they don't actually go over the plating process...just the stripping. I have to think they send the parts out for plating. The Rottler honing machine is pretty cool.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Online Don R

  • My Sandcast is a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,018
  • Saver of unloved motorcycles.
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2025, 11:32:08 AM »
 I kept watching for the plating process too, it's kinda in the title. There's still a little info about the repair and maintaining.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=nikasil%20cylinder%20plating&mmscn=stvo&mid=BB5E7D34D7B4209808B7BB5E7D34D7B4209808B7&ajaxhist=0
« Last Edit: May 19, 2025, 01:48:09 PM by Don R »
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,733
  • Big ideas....
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2025, 02:19:28 PM »
 Very, very short clip of Nikasil being applied. It makes sense as all my blocks came back with an olive green tint that I remove by bead blasting.
 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jFHmtu6ObKY
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline NitroHunter

  • Radical Street / Strip Turbo
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 718
  • A man's motorcycle is a reflection of the man
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2025, 04:53:18 PM »
After watching that I got to wondering if we could remove the sleeves and Nikasil bare bored jugs.
Robbie the NitroHunter                      Fuel Coupe Hired Gun                  NHRA T/F 640

DRAGBIKE USA XH/MB Recordholder: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=127179.0;attach=332735
DRAGBIKE USA XH/SS Recordholder: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=63940.0;attach=103300
Young mans glory days in the lanes: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=45685.0;attach=66341

Offline Tracksnblades1

  • My Son was a collegiate competition Trap, Skeet, and sporting Clay
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,075
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2025, 05:10:40 PM »
After watching that I got to wondering if we could remove the sleeves and Nikasil bare bored jugs.

Think the casting will take it..?
Age Quod Agis

Offline willbird

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,218
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2025, 02:29:01 PM »
Very, very short clip of Nikasil being applied. It makes sense as all my blocks came back with an olive green tint that I remove by bead blasting.
 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jFHmtu6ObKY

A number of years ago at a past employer we had  a lab that made our CBN and Diamond grinding wheels. The process used an electric charge similar to how powder coating works, it made the diamond or CBN particles stand on end on the surface of the part, then Nickle was electroplated onto the part to hold them in place. This sounds like that in some ways. Then his Rottler makes them flat on top to be simplistic. The particles kind of slowly rained down onto the part in the solution so they would have to rotate the part so each area got "rained on". The electrostatic

Here is an example here.
https://www.cdtusa.net/plated

We would make the steel grinding wheel blanks some with a form profile to them, then the lab plated them. We made one solid carbide part that looked like a huge Lifesaver candy in some ways but it was solid carbide and 16" dia and 12" or taller. The diamond grinding wheel was used to grind the torus on the hole of the lifesaver. Having the whole process in house really helped us.


Offline simon#42

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,685
  • liverpool
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2025, 02:47:15 PM »
Very, very short clip of Nikasil being applied. It makes sense as all my blocks came back with an olive green tint that I remove by bead blasting.
 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jFHmtu6ObKY

The final honing of the cylinder should remove that

Online Don R

  • My Sandcast is a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,018
  • Saver of unloved motorcycles.
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2025, 08:51:36 PM »
I'm thinking Mike means the green tint is on the outside after the bath in the solution.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline simon#42

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,685
  • liverpool
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2025, 04:47:04 AM »
sorry yes you are right don , i get quite a few cylinders replated and they always come back bare alloy colour . the process is tough on the cylinders though it can only be done two or three times before the cylinder is finished .

Online Don R

  • My Sandcast is a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,018
  • Saver of unloved motorcycles.
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2025, 04:15:43 PM »
sorry yes you are right don , i get quite a few cylinders replated and they always come back bare alloy colour . the process is tough on the cylinders though it can only be done two or three times before the cylinder is finished .
 

Could it be bored and sleeved or does the process effect the metal?
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline simon#42

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,685
  • liverpool
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2025, 10:19:25 AM »
it affects the metal don , becomes porous . i think the damage is done removing the old plating . the cylinders i get plated are cast alloy i would expect a billet cylinder to be much more robust .

Online Don R

  • My Sandcast is a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,018
  • Saver of unloved motorcycles.
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2025, 12:33:41 PM »
 That's interesting and good to know. A safely jetted street bike might be pretty safe as far as needing a re-plate.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline simon#42

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,685
  • liverpool
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2025, 11:52:59 PM »
Yes I have bmw cylinders with over a hundred thousand miles on them and you can’t measure any wear . The two stroke racing cylinders are a different story !

Offline MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,733
  • Big ideas....
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2025, 01:02:28 PM »
Yes I have bmw cylinders with over a hundred thousand miles on them and you can’t measure any wear . The two stroke racing cylinders are a different story !
That is some truth. 4 strokes it lasts a long, long time....skirts wear out first. Not quite as much oil in the system with 2 strokes
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline simon#42

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,685
  • liverpool
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2025, 09:07:32 AM »
they are also mostly holes mike , not much support for rings or piston .

Offline simon#42

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,685
  • liverpool
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2025, 09:19:43 AM »
a 125 aprilia cylinder , makes nearly 60 hp

Offline MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,733
  • Big ideas....
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2025, 09:35:43 AM »
 Yep....more like transfer holes....not transfer ports. ;D
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,096
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2025, 11:27:59 AM »
It looks like Swiss cheese!
Almost 60Hp is a lot for only 125cc.

I had a Zündapp KS125 1973 for a while in 1977. Maybe earlier. Blinkers on handlebars ends.

15-17hp was much back then.   
The Honda CB125 B6 at the same time was very tired.
No wheelies as my Zündapp.

A friend had a Monark with a Sachs 125cc with 22hp.

So 60hp is a few times more. 2- stroke 60hp must fly away from a stock CB750 K ;D


Around 3 times more in modern bikes ;D
« Last Edit: June 05, 2025, 11:52:51 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline simon#42

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,685
  • liverpool
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2025, 12:55:54 PM »
That cylinder is from a rsa aprilia 125 they where only made for gps and they were very very expensive . Only supplied to works supported teams .i have no real idea what they cost but as the cheap production racer the rsw cost 80 grand i would guess they were in the 250 thousand area . You still see the odd one for sale they go for around 40 grand . If you think that is expensive the last of the 250s cost a million pounds a year to lease . Thats one of the reasons they brought in a road based engine series to replace the 250s

Online Don R

  • My Sandcast is a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,018
  • Saver of unloved motorcycles.
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2025, 08:28:27 AM »
 A friend was schooling me on the ford Gen 3 coyote iron cylinder, it gets a spray transfer process that seems similar to nicasil, it takes diamond hones and a special process to hone them. When done it almost looks like a mirror finish. He got some of his info from Ilmore racing.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline simon#42

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,685
  • liverpool
Re: forged vs billet pistons, engine labs nicasil story
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2025, 03:20:42 AM »
the first plated cylinders i saw where chrome plated , that was a mirror finish although some manufacturers used to put small dimples in the bore before it was chromed to hold the oil