Topic: CB500/550 Rear Retainer Ring Removal - GOT IT!!

[jonda500]

Turn the retainer clockwise or the wheel clockwise - I hope I can clear this up for you:
When you turn over the wheel so the retainer is on the underneath side, it appears to undo in an anticlockwise direction viewing from the top (the inside or backside of it), which is of course clockwise if you look from underneath!
John

[Dr. Frankenstein]

I'm trying everything, this sucker just Will Not Give It Up! So far it's been ten minutes of applied heat with MAPP gas, plenty of Kroil and PB blaster, the Common Motor special too, the CM tool with a length of pipe over the handle, a large screwdriver and 5 lb sledge, an air hammer with a pointed bit (not effective - it keeps slipping), harsh language and all of the above. I may have to seek out someone with an acetylene torch and more aggressive tools/methods; it can't be stuck if it's liquid.  For the record, I am trying to turn the retainer clockwise/to the right.

[CycleRanger]

Where exactly did you drill out the staking?
Can you post a new photo?

[Dr. Frankenstein]

Sure! This ring hasn't moved; did I not drill down far enough?

[CycleRanger]

Sure! This ring hasn't moved; did I not drill down far enough?

Possibly, but don't go wild!
 I was hoping for a closer up image. I want to see if it's also staked on the outer edge.
I can't tell from that photo.
There's pictures in these threads that show examples of how far you have to typically drill down into the holes, which is to say not far.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,58147.0.html
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=167424.0

[Dr. Frankenstein]

Oh! Those holes are maybe 5mm deep.  I don't see any other marks around the outer edge - I did put some paint marks on it to be able to tell if I was moving the retainer at all, but Nope!  There is/are no other markings on the face of the retainer.

[Ozzybud]

I usually drill down 1/8 th using a 1/8 drill bit. It looks like you haven't drilled out the staking. 1/8 will not affect anything negatively. When re assembling re stake 45⁰ from the original stakes.

[Dr. Frankenstein]

Ozzy, I'm not sure I understand you - I don't see any staking on the face of the retainer. I did put those two paint spots you can see in the pic at 2 o'clock and 9o'clock to give me a 'shift mark' in case the retainer turned - - and as I mentioned, the holes that I did drill out that you can see in the pic are about 5mm deep. An eighth of an inch is equal to 3.175mm, so did I go down far enough? Would it help to drill down some more?

[newday777]

This is where the staking will be, not in the holes where the wrench goes.....

[Dr. Frankenstein]

I'll go back and look harder, but I don't see any dimples like that around this retainer. I do hope it's that and I simply overlooked them -but If you look closely at the holes I've drilled, you can see a little trench off to the sides of each drill hole; when I drilled it out originally, those little dimples were right there on that seam, so that's where I drilled...and just checking again, but it does turn to the right to loosen, right? I'm thinking I either didn't drill down far enough, or it's rust-welded, maybe both, but I don't know.

Here's a pic of those little trenches I'm talking about - isn't that the threaded part the retainer screws into? Retainer on the inside, threads on the outside?:

[CycleRanger]

This is where the staking will be, not in the holes where the wrench goes.....

That's not a 500/550 hub.

[newday777]

This is where the staking will be, not in the holes where the wrench goes.....

That's not a 500/550 hub.

True. It was to show where to find the stakes

[Dr. Frankenstein]

True - that's a 750 hub (450 maybe?? I dunno...)...but I do know that that is not a 500/550 hub.

[CycleRanger]

The 550 retainer is staked through the holes.

[Little_Phil]

(not effective - it keeps slipping)
I am trying to turn the retainer clockwise/to the right.

What do you mean it keeps slipping?
Yes that IS the correct way to remove.

[Dr. Frankenstein]

What I mean is there's not much area to place the pointed end of the air hammer bit against the lip of the retainer; it needs to push against the lip of the retainer since that is the part that screws down into the bearing hub. I thought by using the air hammer against that retainer lip I could push/hammer the retainer loose, but the chewed-up retainer holes will not allow the bit to get a purchase on the retainer itself, it keeps walking off that 2/3 mm thick retainer edge and down into/against the hub itself.

I thought about using one of the air hammer flat bits, but I think that would just cut through the top of the retainer - which might not be a bad idea, since I figure any more aggressive methods will destroy the retainer, and if I'm going to go that far I might as well try to cut the darn thing off and get a new one - but then I run the risk of really messing up the threads and might have to get a whole new hub. Seems I'm Darned if I do and Darned if I don't...although thinking about it some more, I might be able to use the hammer to push against the inside part of the retainer through one of the holes, rather than the retainer face, but that may disfigure the retainer, which in turn means I would have to destroy the retainer anyway...I don't know...on the 'plus' side, 4into1 does sell a 550 retainer for 'only' 55 bucks...I have no idea why this is so hard - either I'm doing it wrong, or it's rust-welded to the hub. Or both!

I read somewhere that you can drill down past the retainer threads, there is a small space between the bottom of the retainer and the face of the hub itself - is that accurate? Have I maybe not drilled down far enough? Those drill-holes are about 5mm deep...would it help or hurt to go deeper?

[denward17]

This picture shows about how far I drilled down to get my ring out of the 550 hub.

[Dr. Frankenstein]

Yeah, I'm way past that! 

UPDATE - HA!! I GOT IT!!  I've been working on this thing for about an hour now and was getting really tired of this thing's attitude; so in between checking the forum for tips on how to get this sucker removed, I was back out in the garage blasting it with MAPP gas and trying to use the air hammer again, which was unproductive - finally I picked up a drift and with a resolve meant for my ex-wife and old boss I started just banging the hell out of it with a liberal dose of colorful invective and it started to move! My heart sang!...It Was Turning!

Now, it ain't pretty - you can see where the original peen marks are that I drilled out originally when I thought I was turning it the 'right' (wrong!) way and discovered it was a left-hand thread; so I had to pound it BACK to the right past the peen marks and you can see the drill holes that go almost through the darn thing - but I got it!   

I'm pretty sure I can't use this retainer anymore but armed with what I've learned I do have another rusted-out 550 wheel with a 'good' retainer still in it. I'm going to do this AGAIN to get that one out, and hopefully I won't have to get so extreme with it. But G-D...! File this under 'Things to NOT Do Again'!  In this case I had to because the rear bearings were crunchy when I turned them by hand, but again - G-D!  Talk about a Learning Experience! I think I had such a hard time with it because I originally unknowingly overtightened it.

P.S.: Oh, and that other retainer, from the rusty wheel...? Took me all of five minutes and some heat and a drift to get it out. Nothing teaches like experience, I guess...I found that using a drift and a BFH works better to loosen it (to the RIGHT!) than the Common Motor tool, although the tool does come in handy to spin it off once you get it loosened. Just sayin'...

[bryanj]

That would go again if you clean it up with a thread file, i know Dave Silver sells pattern ones and not horrendously expensive unlike the tach gear casting

[Dr. Frankenstein]

Yes, I'm actually considering it - it re-threaded into the hub just fine, and its only job is to keep the bearing in, it just looks nasty. The one I took out of the other rusted wheel is fine. 

[CycleRanger]

Gods be praised!
I can see you certainly drilled the shiat out of that one! 
I hope the cush rubbers weren't damaged with all that heat.

[Dr. Frankenstein]

Yeahhh, I kinda went too deep with the drill - but Hey, it was my First Time! Next time I'll just use the tip...   (There's a joke in there someplace... )  But MAN - what a *Itch! 

Now, speaking of the cush rubbers, how does the hub lift off so I can check them? Does it / should it just pull out? I see in the pic above from Denward there looks to be a big O-ring in there that might make taking it out problematic...

[bryanj]

The hub with studs should just pull off after that screwed ring is out.

That O ring isnt, its a D ring with a flat surface against the hub, its also obsolete! CMSNL have 1 in stock and a European member of the UK forum had some specialy made, not sure if he has any left.

The area around the O ring should be greased with MP grease before the sprocket carrier is refitted.

There is another, normal, O ting under the thin tin cover.

When replacing bearing buy the 2 RS type

[Dr. Frankenstein]

"The hub with studs should just pull off after that screwed ring is out." 

Should, but of course mine doesn't. But I'm done for the day; I got the bearings out of my rusty wheel for a dry run, and that's a big *itch too. Does anybody know if there's a tutorial in the forum on how to put them back in?

[bryanj]

You fit the bearing on the screwed retainer side first, dont forget the short spacer, screw in the retainer temporarily then fit the eared centre sleeve, frequently you will need to reshap the "ears" to centre the sleeve then fit the other side bearing tapping only on the outer race