Author Topic: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running  (Read 2717 times)

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Offline MDW

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400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« on: July 29, 2025, 04:45:42 PM »
I finished restoring my 1975 400/4 several months ago and have been trying to deal with the engine running rough at low revs. I have check and adjusted the valves, points, timing, plug gaps and fixed an air leak that was causing it rev high without the throttle being turned. I have ultrasonic cleaned the carbs 3 times. I balanced the carbs a few months ago and before that replaced all the jets with new OEM versions except for the needle jet - the needle is non-OEM and the emulsion tube is original OEM. After playing with the air/fuel mix I can get it to run smoothly above 2K rpms, but not below.

Above 2k it will run smoothly for about 5 miles then start to run rough and eventually stop. If I wait for a few minutes it starts right up and will run well for another mile or so and then the problem starts again and the engine stops. I have been running 91 octane fuel, as this is what the previous owner used. Does anyone know what the issue could be? Could it be the emulsion tube (it could be original and the bike has 30k miles). Also, I have been running without the airbox for the last few test rides and the weather has been very hot/humid (30 Celsius/86 F approx), if that could be relevant. Thanks

Offline Ozzybud

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2025, 05:56:09 PM »
Fuel delivery? Gas cap vent?  Eliminate the easy stuff first.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2025, 12:09:00 AM »
My first guess would be fuel not being delivered. Check fuel tube(s) for correct routing, meaning no kinks, no going up and down, no inline fuel filters. Do carbs vent as they should?
Marco in Germany first made very good videos on both the dissasembly as well as the reassembly of his CB500 carbs. There are about 8 or 9 videos of them, each about 20 minutes! He is gründlich and does explain well in his soft and modest voice. BTW, all his vids are free of bragging and pretending, a true relief... CB350F carbs are very similar. He made vids on the assembly of his CB350F carbs. In total some 165 minutes. His channel: https://www.youtube.com/@motormac3657 You can opt for subtitles in English. This one in particular could interest you from 13:00 on:
 
« Last Edit: July 30, 2025, 12:20:20 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2025, 07:19:25 AM »
Thanks Ozzybud/Deltarider. I didn't mention that I currently have a fuel filter on the fuel line and heard they can be problematic. I have overflow tubes from the carb bowels and tubes on the two atomization outlets (not sure the correct name). I have previously tried riding with the gas cap open but will test that again since I have made a lot of adjustments in the meantime. If that is the cause, I believe you can dismantle the gas cap to replace seals etc. I will also remove the filter and see if that changes anything.

Offline Bodi

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2025, 11:08:49 AM »
I suggest getting clean plugs, running until it does this rough/stall thing, and inspecting the plugs immediately. Plug colour will tell a lot about the mixture.
I wonder about aftermarket needles. This part is very critical to the carb operation. Can you find OEM needles, even used (wear is very slow on them)? Also check that the slide cutaway hasn't been modified.
If you run the stock airbox and filter, using OEM carb brass and needle setting is the best starting point. A header and pipe affects the running a bit but intake mods make a big difference and are a tough thing to tune for.
Bowl level also very important and can be adjusted a bit to richen or lean the engine. The clear tube method is ideal but with the 400 drain screws you need to fabricate fittings for the tubes.

Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2025, 11:54:47 AM »
Bodi: I can buy OEM needles and emulsion tubes from David Silver. I didn't understand the comment about fabricating fittings for the drain tubes.  I have rubber gasoline rated tubes on them right now.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2025, 12:03:05 PM »
The 400F will act much like what you're describing if the low-RPM mixture (the adjuster screw) is set a little too far out. I'd suggest turning them all inward 1/2 turn from their present position for your next test? This bike is slightly cold-blooded on startup due to the way Honda stretched the carb's idle mix range into the 3500 RPM range (via a combination of valve overlap and cam timing, plus the float bowl depth). All the other SOHC4 bikes' carbs only control mixture with the idle circuit to about 2500-ish RPM. If the low-end mix is too wet, it will act similar to what you describe, with a "hot idle" running toward 2500-3000 RPM.

Make sure the spark timing is dead-on the idle marks below 1500 RPM, too. Does the bike use points, or has some form of electronic ignition been mounted?
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline Tim2005

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2025, 02:42:12 PM »


Make sure the spark timing is dead-on the idle marks below 1500 RPM, too. Does the bike use points, or has some form of electronic ignition been mounted?

Are you suspecting condensors too?  I've had plenty of carb issues in 400s over the years but they aren't usually enough to actually stop the engine like this

Offline Bodi

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2025, 03:38:19 PM »
That was about the clear tube way of measuring float height. On some carbs the bowl drain screw opens a path to the overflow nipple making it easy to attach a clear tube, bend it up, and see the fuel level. But the 400F (and a lot of others) have a drain screw with a centre and cross hole, screwing it out dumps fuel around the screw. A screw with that thread, drilled through the centre, is needed to put a clear tube onto for this method.
The video from Deltarider is showing this fuel level measurement around 16:30. Spec level is usually at the gasket.

Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2025, 05:48:03 PM »
Bodi, thanks for he clarification. I know this approach, but haven't made the effort to try it out (yet!)
Hondaman, thanks I will try the air/fuel mix as you suggest. I think I have them around 1.5 turns out from being fully in. I removed the fuel filter and now have just the fuel line connected between the tank and carb. I rode the same circuit and this time it didn't stop. I also rode part of it with the gas cap open. It did get rougher and rougher but not stopping is an improvement. I will try the mix adjustments and see if that also improves things. What do you think about the needle jet being partly to blame?
Tim 2005, it doesn't burn points and they are adjusted correctly. I checked the condensers a while ago and they seemed ok. I have had bad ones in the past which caused issues
« Last Edit: July 30, 2025, 06:04:44 PM by MDW »

Offline carnivorous chicken

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2025, 07:08:45 PM »
That was about the clear tube way of measuring float height. On some carbs the bowl drain screw opens a path to the overflow nipple making it easy to attach a clear tube, bend it up, and see the fuel level. But the 400F (and a lot of others) have a drain screw with a centre and cross hole, screwing it out dumps fuel around the screw. A screw with that thread, drilled through the centre, is needed to put a clear tube onto for this method.
The video from Deltarider is showing this fuel level measurement around 16:30. Spec level is usually at the gasket.

Not sure if I'm understanding this correctly, but a stock drain screw works just fine, even if it has the cross hole. Either way, you have to screw it in empty, and you're gonna have to empty it when you're done. And when you screw it in, it's gotta screw in the whole way anyway. I have used a spare stock one for years with no issues, just JB welded a small brass tube after drilling through the head.

Offline denward17

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2025, 07:17:22 PM »
Clear tube example.

I purchased 2 of these for my 550, not sure if the thread is the same for a 400.

https://www.z1enterprises.com/fuel-level-gauge-tool-kawasaki-suzuki.html

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2025, 07:51:38 PM »


Make sure the spark timing is dead-on the idle marks below 1500 RPM, too. Does the bike use points, or has some form of electronic ignition been mounted?

Are you suspecting condensors too?  I've had plenty of carb issues in 400s over the years but they aren't usually enough to actually stop the engine like this

This is a good thought, too, given the condensors we're getting from so many bad sources lately. Are your condensors stamped with anyone's marks/initials?

The needles: most aftermarket needles have a 'faster' taper from their tips to their base, and all that I have seen are also larger diameter. So, if the needle jet in the carb body is OEM and the needle in the slide is not, this generally makes for a steeper increase in fuel-air mix ratio as the slide is opened. In running terms this often means lean idle and low-speed, going suddenly richer above 1/2-ish throttle. Much of the time this causes the bikes to fall on their face just off of idle, then have low power (or surging) in low-midrange, and after 1/2 throttle upward they get rich. It makes for miserable driveability.

Sometimes the needles are so big they actually stick in the needle jets, so look for marks on the top part of the needle(s) to see if this might be happening with the combo of parts you're running? Normally, aftermarket needles require the same aftermarket needle jets because of the hole-size change: usually they also run much leaner than Keihin's own parts.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2025, 07:58:14 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2025, 04:45:35 PM »
I got rid of the fuel filter, adjusted the air/fuel mix 1/2 turn in and reinstalled the original condensers (already send one back to David Silver that was defect). I will test this and if there's no improvement I will either buy new OEM needle/emulsion tubes or refit the original needles. I expect OEM is the way to go but if others have had a good experience with a particular aftermarket brand, please let me know. Thanks

Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2025, 05:36:06 AM »
Hondaman: On your 1st post and 2nd comments about the needle (mine are non-OEM, the jet/emulsion tube is OEM and the slide I believe is probably OEM), I have the air/fuel mix set at 1 turn out from fully in (previously 1.5-2.25 turns out). I understand that would make the mix leaner. I went on a test run last night. At first it seemed to run quite well at lower revs. However, after about 3 miles and higher revs it started running horribly and eventually stopped. I managed to get her restarted and home by holding the revs above 3k. I checked the plugs this morning and they we completely black/sooty. I would have expected the leaner mix to not left them so sooty. It looks like what you describe in your comments about the non-OEM needle might be the problem I have. Any further thoughts on that? Thanks

One more thing, I am using 91 octane fuel as that is what the previous owner was using, if that could have any relevance. I also noticed black watery fluid dripping from the exhaust when starting her up. Unburnt fuel?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2025, 07:55:00 AM by MDW »

Offline Nurse Julie

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2025, 11:32:13 AM »
The exhaust incontinence will be condensation.
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Offline M 750K6

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2025, 02:31:20 AM »
Keyster brass didn't work on my 750K6. It was too rich. I put the carefully cleaned original brass back in and it was fine. 4,000 miles since, all good.

When you cleaned the carbs did you make sure all the holes and routes inside the carb body were clear? I use carb cleaner and compressed air, repeated a few times. Seems to work.

Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2025, 06:15:48 AM »
Yes, I cleaned all the holes in the different jets as well as passages in the carb bodies themselves. I am thinking the issue maybe related to what Hondaman mentioned above about the non-OEM needle in an OEM jet/emulsion tube.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2025, 07:27:13 AM »
Although it is not very likely both will die at the same time - with all these Chinese imitations around, who knows? - are you sure your condensers are allright? When after a few miles your bike gives up have a look at the ignition plate whilst 'running' and check for this: At the breakerpoints a tiny bit of sparking is normal, excessive sparking or arcing is not good and can indicate a bad condenser. So in this vid the left condensor (1+4) is bad, right condensor (2+3) is good.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2025, 07:32:18 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2025, 07:45:00 AM »
Thanks. Any thoughts on where to buy new condensers? As mentioned above I bought a pair from David Silver and one was defective. Their stuff is normally good.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2025, 07:51:27 AM »
Diagnose first. Bad condensers will show.
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Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2025, 10:21:59 AM »
I will check them but don’t think they are defective. I also checked them using a multimeter which I saw in another YouTube video and both were fine. Still think it’s more likely the needle jets based on Hondaman’s comments.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2025, 02:14:39 PM »
I've seen both the too-lean and too-rich aftermarket (needles + emulsifiers) in the 500/550 situation: I rarely get to work on the CB400 around here (because all the ones I know of work just fine, still - good bikes!) to discern whether their aftermarket needles and emulsifiers are rich/lean, or which way.

For example, just for reference:
in the 750 PD carbs, using the K&L or the Keyster jets will make them about 3%-5% leaner than the number stamped on their jets, and using their emulsifiers with their needles will make it even (much) leaner than that as their needles are much thicker overall (and the emulsifier holes are correspondingly larger). The struggle here is: it actually gets so lean that the engine misfires every few revolutions above 2500 RPM, and the unburned fuel from that misfire builds up in the cylinder and header, then fires at less-than-cadence speed, making that burn event very rich. Then, because it is SO lean, the engine balks when warm and black soot builds up everywhere. This baffled me for a long time until I figured it out by accident: I installed mainjets that were 25%+ richer than they should be (#140 instead of #105), and it worked perfectly. That was in 2010, I think, on a 750K7 I rebuilt to new, from junk. Those were all Keyster parts, in PD41 carbs. Because of the 3 other cylinders being so eager to turn over the ones that are not firing so well, this becomes more than confusing...

In the earlier CB750 carbs, the K&L/Keyster emulsifier just has incorrect aeration hole sizes, easily fixed up. Their needles are also thicker, and their supplied emulsifier jet (in the throat of the carb) matches their needle fairly closely in ratio the the Keihin version, over the travel distance. BUT - the needle jet is a separate part, and if used with the Keihin needle, its hole is much larger and uncontrolled richness results. The fuel is simply being sucked past the needle at much higher rate than the slide's opening, and the sparkplugs foul in about 5-10 miles from a rouhgly 6:1 A/F ratio (normal is about 12:1 here).

So...whenever non-Keihin brass is involved, I go straight to that as a known issue from using those parts elsewhere, although the actual problem may be different in the 400F: there are also 2 different 400F carb setups: the 1975 version and the later one. They are different: the later version is more 'touchy' than the earlier one because it had emissions rules to follow.

I might suggest trying to install all Keihin brass if you can find it all?

Another tip:
Make sure of the spark timing. If the spark is advanced too much, it makes the engine spit back at the carbs at lower speeds (less than 4K RPM). This slows down the airspeed thru the carbs, making them run richer than the engine speed might otherwise require. I test for this by simply retarding the timing by turn the points plate to the right a little bit, so that the points open in between the "T" and "F" marks. If the carbs' situation seems to improve a little, then the spark advancer's springs have become too soft from the years of heat-annealing, and they should be shortened a little bit to slow down the spark curve. But, this presumes FIRST that the carb-mixing situation has been set up properly: it won't cure improper parts, nor work if the mix is just too rich. In this situation, it cures things like sparkplug fouling in 100 miles, and the like.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2025, 05:47:51 PM »
Thanks for the detailed information Hondaman, and the time it took to post it - appreciated.I need to read through it a couple of times to make sure I understand everything. Two points for now. I have an issue with cylinder 3 which doesn’t seem to always fire properly or at times get as hot as the other down pipes. To your question about Keihin brass, I can buy the OEM needle and jet/ emulsion tube from David Silver. The other jets are already OEM. I think that is my next step but will first double check the capacitors as suggested in another post and reread your comments. Thanks again.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2025, 06:33:28 PM »
Glad to help: someone here will have the right clue for you! :)
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline scottly

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2025, 06:39:32 PM »
However, after about 3 miles and higher revs it started running horribly and eventually stopped. I managed to get her restarted and home by holding the revs above 3k. I checked the plugs this morning and they we completely black/sooty.

I also noticed black watery fluid dripping from the exhaust when starting her up. Unburnt fuel?
You have a serious carb problem, fouling the plugs from too much fuel/not enough air after running for any length of time. Perform the "clear tube" test before trying anything else.
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Offline Killer Canary

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2025, 07:39:57 PM »
The 400F will act much like what you're describing if the low-RPM mixture (the adjuster screw) is set a little too far out. I'd suggest turning them all inward 1/2 turn from their present position for your next test? This bike is slightly cold-blooded on startup due to the way Honda stretched the carb's idle mix range into the 3500 RPM range (via a combination of valve overlap and cam timing, plus the float bowl depth). All the other SOHC4 bikes' carbs only control mixture with the idle circuit to about 2500-ish RPM. If the low-end mix is too wet, it will act similar to what you describe, with a "hot idle" running toward 2500-3000 RPM.

Make sure the spark timing is dead-on the idle marks below 1500 RPM, too. Does the bike use points, or has some form of electronic ignition been mounted?
I'm a tad confoozled. You suggest turning idle mixture screws in to I assume richen the mix to alleviate cold-bloodedness. Near the bottom of same response you mention a too wet low end mix causing the symptoms described. I've always assumed that :"cold-bloodedness"  was another term for leanness. IDK.
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Offline Jan187

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2025, 11:55:38 PM »
Mixture screw in = leaner (less fuel)

Offline Deltarider

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2025, 12:02:02 AM »
Mixture screw in = leaner (less fuel)
This ^ is incorrect. On these oldstyle carbs these screws are air screws, so it is: turning in = richer, turning out = leaner.
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Offline M 750K6

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2025, 08:14:04 AM »
There is also a theory that although the screw is on the airbox side of the carb, due to the internal channels, the idle screw is metering air which has fuel already mixed in it. In which case, screwing in would be leaner.

As I was confused by the different advice, I tested it out. On my 750K6 carbs I found turning the screw in resulted in richer, as Delta says. But that's just my experience on my 750 roundtop carbs.

Offline jonda500

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2025, 04:38:27 PM »
I have owned three 400-4's - in my experience screwing the air screws in richens the mixture.
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Remember that an ignoramus is only someone who doesn't know something you just learned yesterday!

A starter clutch thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,122084.0.html
1972 CB500K1 original 4 owner bike
1972 CB500K1 returned to complete/original condition
1975 CB550F built from parts - project thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,149161.msg1711626.html#msg1711626
197? CB500/550 constructing from left over parts
1998 KTM 380 (two stroke) recent impulse buy, mmmm...

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 400/4 Carb issue - rough running
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2025, 05:20:49 PM »
Mixture screw in = leaner (less fuel)
This is correct. Study the carbs' passages and this will become plain to understand.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).