Author Topic: CB550K Needle Position  (Read 1736 times)

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Offline ddcook10

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CB550K Needle Position
« on: June 30, 2025, 04:50:10 PM »
Hello Guys I have 1975 CB550 Four that has a stock Airbox and 4 into 4 Exhaust. It has 100 Main Jet, 38 Pilot and the Needle is 4th down from the top.
4 into 1 Motorcycle parts sent me a card that said these are the stock sizes and positions. I have a midrange stumble or surge. Bike runs great at low speeds
What do you suggest? DynaJet Electronic Ignition and timing set Dynamic with a timing light.

Offline denward17

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2025, 05:10:21 PM »
What do your plugs look like?
With the needle clip in the 4th position from top, it may be too rich.

Other items to check:

Fuel flow, how are the fuel lines running, gravity fed so if you go uphill could be a problem.
Gas cap vent.
Clean fuel supply

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2025, 05:15:16 PM »
Hello Guys I have 1975 CB550 Four that has a stock Airbox and 4 into 4 Exhaust. It has 100 Main Jet, 38 Pilot and the Needle is 4th down from the top.
4 into 1 Motorcycle parts sent me a card that said these are the stock sizes and positions. I have a midrange stumble or surge. Bike runs great at low speeds
What do you suggest? DynaJet Electronic Ignition and timing set Dynamic with a timing light.

That needle position is OK, provided they are Honda's own needles.
There's several things that can make for a midrange stumble in this engine. In order of the most-common things, they are:
1. Spark advance happening too soon. Full spark advance by 2000 RPM or less will make the engine stumble as it passes up toward 3000 RPM, when it will surge with more power up there. If the bike has the OEM spark advancer in it, the springs may well be (and usually are, by 8000 miles) heat-sacked and now too soft, requiring trimming them back a coil or so to slow the spark advance to be full after 2500 RPM (after 3000 RPM is better, given modern gasolines).
2. Small vacuum leaks at the intake manifolds where they bolt onto the head. The O-rings in those castings are the same size as the ones in the valve caps, and are usually hard as a rock today, since they were meant to last about 5 years or 10,000 miles or so. Then they don't seal so well.
3. Too much octane in the fuel. If you aren't already, try running Regular grade today, as our fuels burn much slower than 1970s gas.
4. Check the setting of the idle-mix screws on the carbs: they should be set at 1.5 turns out from being closed snugly (not hard!).
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
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Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline ddcook10

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2025, 05:36:34 PM »
Thank you for the replies! The Plugs Look lean at the very tip by the center electode then just below they are Black which is strange to me I may try to get photo of the plugs which are NGK D7ES. Hondaman I replaced the o-rings in the intakes to head and installed aftermarket intake boots. The stumble or surge usually happens in a higher gear between 4 and 5000 rpm.

Offline ddcook10

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2025, 05:39:08 PM »
Hondaman I assume they are Stock Honda Needles installed

Offline ddcook10

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2025, 06:35:40 PM »
Here is a Picture of the spark plugs

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2025, 10:13:17 PM »
I see the richness showing up in that plug: it looks like it is happening in a limited RPM range. The pattern suggests it is rich at higher RPM when the gasses are flowing faster: the richness is cleaning the whiter side of the plug and the wetness is collecting behind it (on the windward side, so to speak) where it is then burning richer and slower there. I have seen that in the old 18RC Toyota engines, too, back when they still had carburetors (modifying their distributor timing curve helped those run better...)

You might try this, as that symptom reminds me of when foam-type air filters first appeared for the 500/550 bikes (and turned out to be a bad idea): pull out the air filter and go for a ride to see how it affects the RPM performance. See if this smooths out the flat spot some: if so, there is an inductance issue, maybe an air filter that got impaired? A paper filter that got wet, for example, will work OK at lower flows but won't flow well at higher airspeeds, making for richer running as RPM rises (much like when foam filters were used: the foam passages start squishing closed as airflow rises, and since the 4 never lets the foam relax due to constant intake flows, they pinch off some air up high in RPM ranges).

Besides that test: I don't know much about the ignition system you're using: does it use the OEM spark advancer for timing advance, or is it a microprocessor-controlled, variable-advance-profile type device?
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline ddcook10

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2025, 07:26:24 AM »
Hey HondaMan thank you for your help! I tried without the air filter and it was different. Idled fine and throttle responce was good too. During the ride it had a different surge or stumble at the same RPM but took more throttle so I have a Brand new aftermarket air filter so I installed it. It seemed to help but didn't cure it! I'm thinking it may be rich also. Like I said before I'm not sure if it has Honda Needles or not so I may try moving the clip to the 3rd position and give it a try. By the way the Dynatek Ignition does use the stock Honda Mechanical Spark Advance. I also have some K & L carb kits that have the stock size jets and needles should I try them?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2025, 09:06:55 PM »
Hey HondaMan thank you for your help! I tried without the air filter and it was different. Idled fine and throttle responce was good too. During the ride it had a different surge or stumble at the same RPM but took more throttle so I have a Brand new aftermarket air filter so I installed it. It seemed to help but didn't cure it! I'm thinking it may be rich also. Like I said before I'm not sure if it has Honda Needles or not so I may try moving the clip to the 3rd position and give it a try. By the way the Dynatek Ignition does use the stock Honda Mechanical Spark Advance. I also have some K & L carb kits that have the stock size jets and needles should I try them?

In my experience, the K&L (and Keyster) needles run somewhat leaner than the Keihin needles, and also require the associated K&L (or Keyster) emulsifier tube be used because they are bigger ID hole diameter than the Keihin. That can make the K&L/Keyster needles get stuck (or at least a tight fit) into the Keihin needle jets when the throttle is released: when you have it apart, look for a 'polished' spot on those needles nearest the slide itself, to see if they might be getting 'stuck' into Keihin needle jets from below.

All that said: I've generally found the K&L and Keyster parts tend to run leaner than the Keihin parts, which usually affects throttle response where the engine is moving off the pilot jets and into the slide-and-needle jetting. It's not that they don't work: they just need to be experimented with to get them to run right. This most often gets mis-started (in carbs that have been sent to me for "repair" from this) when someone installs the K&L/Keyster needles, but leaves the needle jets as Keihin's own, so the hole is too small. More than once it has been the other way around when someone had the K&L/Keyster needle jet in the lower part, but the Keihin needle in the slide: then it runs too rich because the needle jet doesn't get fully shut off (and metered too richly) by the thinner Keihin needle.

So, try to make sure both the needles and the needle jets are at least the same brand!

Then: if you use the Keyster/K&L parts, anticipate that it will run about 7% lean or so. For reference: each notch in the needle on the 500/550 slide is a little over 1% difference in richness/lean-ness, and K&L/Keyster jet numbers are also about 7% higher for the same value: for example, a #100 Keyster/K&L jet feeds like a #93 Keihin. Thus, having a #98 (typical of many 550 setups) Keihin mainjet converted to K&L/Keyster means the new one will be #105, to the closest number, for the same fuel feed.

While I don't know why Keyster/K&L changed their needle thicknesses and needlejet hole sizes, I have learned that the number differences in jet size comes from having different taper angles inside the jets, based on carving apart some of each some time ago (just to look). This means the flow characteristics are just a little different between the jets. It might be a patent-avoidance thing? Mikuni is similar.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline ddcook10

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2025, 08:49:36 AM »
Hey HondaMan I wanted to tell you that I lowered the needles to the 3rd from the top position from the 4th position and finally took it for a test ride this morning and it responded well to the change! Anything below 1/2 throttle and it runs almost perfect! I am considering moving them the next groove leaner.
I can't tell if these are Honda Needles or aftermarket. They have numbers on them but there to small for me to see. Its a 2 hour job to move them with the carbs on the bike but worth the time!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2025, 09:29:10 PM »
Hey HondaMan I wanted to tell you that I lowered the needles to the 3rd from the top position from the 4th position and finally took it for a test ride this morning and it responded well to the change! Anything below 1/2 throttle and it runs almost perfect! I am considering moving them the next groove leaner.
I can't tell if these are Honda Needles or aftermarket. They have numbers on them but there to small for me to see. Its a 2 hour job to move them with the carbs on the bike but worth the time!

This move suggests the needles are a good match for the needle jets, a real good thing! :D
If you end up with a near-perfect transition when you drop the needles another notch, you're doing well: whatever brass you have sounds matched up. These bikes seldom have a perfectly smooth transition through their whole range (even the 750s) until they are running too rich, which then comes with a whole different set of problems.
Good work! :)
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline ddcook10

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2025, 07:02:55 PM »
HondaMan I have another question for you if you don't mind. Since I last posted I haven't gotten around to changing anything on the 75 CB550 (Been Hot here in Central Fla) but I did order some Genuine Honda Intake Manifold Boots and received them today. The aftermarket boots seem OK but I have read some horror stories about them so I decided to change them to the OE ones. The Question is, since the carbs will be off for the boot change should I switch out all the Brass with the K & L Brass I'm just curious of your opinion. I have no idea if the brass in the carbs are Honda or aftermarket. At least if I change them I will know whats in there. The Jets I know are the Stock size but the needles who knows. Thanks again.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2025, 09:21:56 PM »
If you pull out one of the needles, look with a magnifier of some kind for a number engraved around & along the top (blunt end) of the needle. If it is a 3- or 4- digit number with 1 letter in front, it is the K&L or Keyster type needle. If it has the Honda Keihin part, the number will be 272304 in amazingly tiny (but clearly stamped!) numbers.

The #100 mainjet suggests it is a Keihin part in the #022/a carbs.

The normal 550K engines run a pretty mottled and light-colored sparkplug with all Honda parts in the carbs and good compression in the cylinders. Usually they tend to run light tan or light grey color (these colors depend on fuel mixtures where you live) with normal pipes and proper air filters. The engine should be run mostly in the 4000+ RPM range when cruising: that's what it was designed to do. It loves Interstates. ;)
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline ddcook10

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2025, 12:35:16 PM »
Hey HondaMan can you tell me what the purpose of this small rubber seal? Its in the linkage between the carbs and I think I lost one of them.

Offline bryanj

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2025, 01:04:10 PM »
Its supposedly to keep dust an crap out of the adjusters, never available seperately
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline ddcook10

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2025, 09:41:16 PM »
Thanks Bryanj for the answer. I found some on E-bay with some other parts. Do you think they are necessary?

Offline bryanj

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2025, 01:03:22 AM »
They are there for a reason that Keihn thought necessary but unless you are permanently in a desert/dusty environment and travelling 10's of thousand of miles a year my opinion is runnig without them wont hurt
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2025, 04:39:39 AM »
Its supposedly to keep dust an crap out of the adjusters, never available seperately
Another good reason why you never separate CB500/550 carbs from the rack...
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2025, 09:14:01 PM »
Hey HondaMan can you tell me what the purpose of this small rubber seal? Its in the linkage between the carbs and I think I lost one of them.

Yeah, what they said ^^^ ...
They are often split from having been pulled off their ball-end rods, but they are just there to reduce dust ingress into the ball-joint lifters for the slides. I've seen (successful) thin sheets of rubber cut into a large flat O-ring and slipped onto those rods when the OEM seals were missing altogether: I think they were cut from a used tire tube? They worked fine, just looked odd.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline ddcook10

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2025, 06:08:59 PM »
Hello Everybody I am happy to announce that My 1975 CB550 Four is running nearly Perfect! I had the carbs off again (3rd Time) and this time I installed the complete J & L carburetor kit, Jets, Needles, Air screws and all. My floats all adjusted to 22 mm Height. I got them all assembled and just before I started to install the carbs. I noticed that the number 2,3,4 carbs the chokes were about 1/3 applied while number 1 carb (the master) was fully open! I had not noticed this in my previous carb removals! Ha that could be the problem! So I adjusted the Chokes and sure enough it fixed my problem! Also I tried the needles in the middle position like some had suggested but I ended up going to the next to the bottom clip position to get it running perfect. I have seen documentation that says that is the stock postion for the K model. Thanks for all the Help and Suggestion's from everybody!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2025, 08:15:55 PM »
Hello Everybody I am happy to announce that My 1975 CB550 Four is running nearly Perfect! I had the carbs off again (3rd Time) and this time I installed the complete J & L carburetor kit, Jets, Needles, Air screws and all. My floats all adjusted to 22 mm Height. I got them all assembled and just before I started to install the carbs. I noticed that the number 2,3,4 carbs the chokes were about 1/3 applied while number 1 carb (the master) was fully open! I had not noticed this in my previous carb removals! Ha that could be the problem! So I adjusted the Chokes and sure enough it fixed my problem! Also I tried the needles in the middle position like some had suggested but I ended up going to the next to the bottom clip position to get it running perfect. I have seen documentation that says that is the stock postion for the K model. Thanks for all the Help and Suggestion's from everybody!

Where did you get those aftermarket carbs parts? They are keenly sought by lots of other 500/550 riders whose carbs have been messed up by a PO. Finding brass that works well in these bikes is no small thing today!
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline ddcook10

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2025, 08:38:50 PM »
Hello HondaMan I Purchased them on ebay from a guy named georgefix out of Daytona but it looks like he may be out of stock unfortunately

Offline newday777

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #22 on: Today at 02:04:15 AM »
Hello HondaMan I Purchased them on ebay from a guy named georgefix out of Daytona but it looks like he may be out of stock unfortunately
George is a great guy. He sells K&L not J&L kits.
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline ddcook10

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #23 on: Today at 04:32:34 AM »
Sorry I ment K & L not J & L thats what happens when you get old LOL

Offline newday777

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Re: CB550K Needle Position
« Reply #24 on: Today at 04:52:17 AM »
Sorry I ment K & L not J & L thats what happens when you get old LOL
Or fat fingers like me
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A