Topic: Counterfeit Parts

[Perseo]

Tested my spark plug boots (aka caps), and got three at ~14k ohms and one at 181k ohms.  Time for new ones.

Hondaman advises (in his excellent CB500/550 book) to avoid knockoff parts for these, so buy genuine Honda parts or NGK. 

The NGK boots for my CB400F (and other SOHC4s) are apparently discontinued.  Many boots are on offer as third party brands to replace NGK part numbers (that is fair disclosure).  Prices are reasonable.  A few ebay sellers offer NGK branded boots, at varying prices but many are reasonable.

To my gullible eyes and nose, the NGK branded parts have a bit of an aroma to them, as perhaps counterfeit. 

Two questions:  Is there any group knowledge here that spark plug boots are being counterfeited as NGK?

Assuming the old reliable brands are unobtainium, how bad is it to run with the (no doubt) Chinese-made boots, assuming they test out in the desired 5k to 9k ohms resistance range.  I can't go far with my 181,000 ohm boot.

[BenelliSEI]

For genuine NGK products order from clubplug.ca Never failed me.
“One man band” and extremely knowledgeable. Flawless service.

[kyle750]

From my experience searching for boots for both a CB750 and CB550 I suspect the vast majority of both NGK boots and NGK spark plugs sold on Ebay are counterfeit. I can't prove that most are counterfeit but there was already a lot of chatter questioning the authenticity with some people claiming they are cheap chinese manufactured, purposely fraudulent, and dangerous to use.    I bought older  vintage original NGK plugs in their original packaging and older stamped Honda Boots so I am fairly certain I bought original.

There are a lot of counterfeit Honda parts for sale.  Many of the petcocks that even come complete with Honda packaging and Honda red printed boxes are counterfeit. 

[HondaMan]

I have been using Sparkplugs.com for a few years, and so far I've received only "real" parts from them (sparkplugs) and 1 set of 4 caps for CB750 that worked (and still work) fine. They seem to be a small-ish operation.

[kyle750]

Not to hijack the thread but your post got me motivated to take stock of my spark plugs, caps, and wiring.   Original first generation NGK non-resistor spark plugs for the Honda CB750 and 550 (earliest plugs are believed to burn hotter than later replacements) and original Honda spark plug caps.  I also bought vintage Packard tinned twisted copper ignition wire and NGK wire splicers (nearly impossible to find now).

Both bikes start so I am saving the re-wiring for another day

Photo of the wiring for the CB750

Late Edit:  I don't know why I bought 3 sets of spark plug caps???

[HondaMan]

Not to hijack the thread but your post got me motivated to take stock of my spark plugs, caps, and wiring.   Original first generation NGK non-resistor spark plugs for the Honda CB750 and 550 (earliest plugs are believed to burn hotter than later replacements) and original Honda spark plug caps.  I also bought vintage Packard tinned twisted copper ignition wire and NGK wire splicers (nearly impossible to find now).

Both bikes start so I am saving the re-wiring for another day

Photo of the wiring for the CB750

Late Edit:  I don't know why I bought 3 sets of spark plug caps???

Can't have too many sparkplug caps!
The 'early' NGK sparkplugs that worked so well for the 750 were the specially-designed D8ES-L that has a longer 'snout' inside the threads than the D8ES, and a little shorter than the D7ES. In measuring them, the D8ES-L length, if 'converted' to the difference between the D7 and D8 heatranges, is like a D7.4 (some say D7.6) sort of heatrange. It came out at Honda's request to help keep the CB750K1 plugs cleaner longer when ridden in mostly-slow commuter service, and when the 55 MPH speed limit hit in the USA, became an almost perfect all-around plug for the bike. The equivalent in ND is their X24ES-U, which runs slightly hotter than the D8 range.

The "change" in the plugs came in the late 1980s when the US DOT called NGK a "liar" very publicly, stating that (since Motorcraft couldn't make one) "no sparkplug can cover that many heat ranges" that gave the plugs the "S" ending to their partnumber - which in NGK-ese meant "Superwide heat range", covering from D7 to D9 range, as compared to their other plugs. Then the last letter became "A" instead, and the DOT here forced NGK to advertise their plugs as having narrower heatranges than they do - but, the D8 is still a bit too cold for in-town use (always was in the 750), while the D7 is a bit too hot in the 750 for touring at 70+ MPH. This re-designation was, and still is, purely a political event caused (in the USA) by people who are no longer employed in this country's government (and good riddance, IMHO...).

Meanwhile: the D8ES-L sparkplug, made expressly for the 750, was discontinued. When another Japanese engine needed a similar plug the DR8ES-L was brought out (around 1996) and can work almost as well, so not all is lost. If you have to use non-resistor plug caps, this one has a 2.5k ohm resistor (in the ones I have measured) inside, out-of-the-box. I've used them and they work OK, although my favorites are the ND X24ES-U or X22ES-U plugs - easier to find.

[bryanj]

On a slight asside i put D7EV plugs in mybfirst 500 about 77 and doing nothing else it seemed to start cleaner, warm up quicker and give better mpg/power, of course NGK have not made EV plugs for some years but i have a few sets of nos "in stock"

[kyle750]

I have one set of older Honda unstamped/unmarked end caps that I believe are early non-resistor caps. Please note I am not interested in arguing with delta about the legal issues of using non-resistor caps in his home country.  This set of caps is very old but not hard, cracked, or brittle.  They were very dirty so I cleaned them with a degreaser and rubbing alcohol and put a light coat of silicone grease on and letting them soak in the sun.  I will wipe off the silicone grease and then put them away.

[bryanj]

They probably had steel shrouds on them when new which quickly got removed

[kyle750]

Cleaned up nicely.  Hard to believe these caps are over 50 years old 

[Deltarider]

IIRC plugcaps used by Honda always had resistors. Usually these plugcaps read MICHWA. Some want the original plugcaps. That's no guarantee however. The pic shows which caps were used by Honda for some CB500s, including my model. They were notorious, meaning bad. You can clean plugcaps as much as you like, but once a carbon track has developed over the outside, you might as well bin them.
I have always advised this simple test. Have your bike idle in the dark and closely watch the plugcaps and leads, so you can detect arcing (you can hear an ultrashort hiccup in the idle). Bear in mind that plugcaps usually become less reliable over 20.000km and even before... You can complete the test by removing the tank and also watch the coils. Sometimes they spark over the exterior. Again: once a carbon track... etc.
The caps in Kyle pic show no lettering. That's not a good sign. You can compare it with being met by officers that have masked their faces.
This message was meant for information. There's no need to argue. Do with it what you want. Anyone who has a problem with my posts or with humor in general, please do yourself a favour and stop reading them.

[kyle750]

Apologies for the incorrect information.  The NGK D7ES shown in my earlier post were original to the CB550.  The NGK 8ES were purchased for the CB750K1. Based on the older style packaging with window in the box I am fairly certain these are all original NGK and not counterfeit 

I have a lot to learn about the Honda electrical system which is probably why I decided to wait until I understand more before re-wiring the bikes.  The wiring and end caps on the CB550 is fraying, cracking, and splitting and currently being held together with black electrical tape. It looks really bad. 

[kyle750]

As @bryanj mentioned the NGK EV non-resistor spark plug is widely considered to have better performance and technology and a big improvement compared to the earlier ES non-resistor plugs??

[Deltarider]

I have no knowledge of a 'better performance' of NGK EV spark plugs, let alone that it was 'widely considered'. Those plugs were on the market not that long and according to my dealer in those years, NGK had tried to promote them by occasionally handing them out for free. He, my dealer, had them in stock but - with typical Dutch sobreity - opened a drawer and showed me his collection of 'improved performance' spark plugs. Some dated from before WW2. He, a former racer, had seen it all, shrugged his shoulders and advised me the then standard D8ES-L.
Not to start an argument, but I wouldn't mind to see evidence-based proof of this 'widely considered better performance' of not only EV but also varieties like Splitfire. I must have missed it and I welcome it. However the scientist in me is interested in data, not so much anecdotes. In general: we all should be aware of a possible bias when people get things for free.
Kyle, I can only hope you will not take this personal, but your post will happily be harvested and represented without any criticism by AI.

[kyle750]

My plan is simple.  Use the ES and if they work fine then done.  If the ES foul up or underperform I will try the EV.  No science here just plain and  simple trial and error!

[Deltarider]

Yes. Like Hondaman has said: the D8ES-L was the ideal plug, even for the CB500 after break-in period. For me it is impossible to measure if the D8EA is in fact a renamed D8ES-L. If it is, we can all be happy. Honda France has even recommended the D8ES-L for the CB500/550 (which bikes had left the assembly line with D7ES installed), and praised them for being the 'auto-nettoyante' (self cleaning) alternative. Thousand to ten thousand rpm is ofcourse a wide range, so your personal daily use is the deciding factor in choice.

[HondaMan]

Apologies for the incorrect information.  The NGK D7ES shown in my earlier post were original to the CB550.  The NGK 8ES were purchased for the CB750K1. Based on the older style packaging with window in the box I am fairly certain these are all original NGK and not counterfeit 

I have a lot to learn about the Honda electrical system which is probably why I decided to wait until I understand more before re-wiring the bikes.  The wiring and end caps on the CB550 is fraying, cracking, and splitting and currently being held together with black electrical tape. It looks really bad. 

Wow, those sure look like NOS plugs! I haven't seen the glassine wrappers since the last century.
Somewhere in the many posts we have is a picture (or two) of the cutaways I did on the different plugs so the length of the element could be measured and seen. My own pictures of it got lost when a laptop with Windows in it did what Windows often does (corrupted itself) and wouldn't boot anymore, and I don't have a multi-bay tower computer to use to dissect it, but the Internet seems to always remember, one way or another. The D8ES-L version has a tip length in between the D8EA and the D7E(S or A, have forgotten which ones were in those pix?), so its heatrange is just in between those two plugs, by implementing a slightly longer tip than in the D8E(x) plug.

In their day (at my shop), approximately half of the Hondas we unboxed from the factory had ND while the rest had NGK plugs. All of the Suzukis we unboxed came with ND plugs. We stocked both, so it was easy to compare their performance. Today, with fake plugs showing up, this is getting a little harder to do?

[jlh3rd]

original sparkplug caps (550F) were noise suppressor.
original caps on my '75 unrestored bike are not marked or stamped with any name. There is an "8" and a "3"  stamped on one I checked.
There is no metal shroud.

[kyle750]

Kyle, I can only hope you will not take this personal

I don't take it personal at all but I trust @bryanj actual user experience and the consensus offered by AI more than I trust one individual members' unreliable  memory of a short conversation he had with a "former racer" from 50 years ago

NGK ES and EV spark plugs differ primarily in their electrode material and design: "ES"  signifies a standard nickel-alloy center electrode for general street use, while "EV" signifies a high-performance spark plug using a fine-wire precious metal (often gold-palladium) center electrode for improved ignitability and better spark.
 
Here is a breakdown of the differences:

Center Electrode: ES plugs use a standard 2.5mm nickel electrode. EV plugs feature a fine-wire center electrode, which reduces voltage requirements for a spark and improves combustion.

Performance: EV plugs are designed for better throttle response, easier starting, and less fouling due to the thinner, specialized electrode.

Application: ES is standard for daily driving, while EV  is often used in performance or racing applications

Today I went ahead and bought this set of 4 EV plugs for the CB550

[bryanj]

MY knowledge of EV grade comes from actally using them PLUS talking to a well respected Sidcar Racer who just happened to be our NGK rep along with other things, he wasable to diagnose a Suzuki GT 250 that was holing a piston just from looking at the plug we had removed for service

[kyle750]

MY knowledge of EV grade comes from actally using them PLUS talking to a well respected Sidcar Racer who just happened to be our NGK rep along with other things, he wasable to diagnose a Suzuki GT 250 that was holing a piston just from looking at the plug we had removed for service

I am simply quoting this comment because of the trust  and confidence I have in some members.  Thank You Sir!

[bryanj]

You are welcome

[Deltarider]

I doubt you will find those NGK V spark plugs anymore. If you did/do, please report. When NGK has stopped manufacturing them, you could interpret that as they didn't make much difference or that NGK wouldn't like to compete wit the new iridium plugs. The V plugs were not very expensive, from memory they were around € 12,50 each, a conventional was € 4,50. I followed the discussion around iridium plugs on the German site. All but one said it had been money wasted.
@Kyle. It's the right attitude to be skeptical when somebody's source has been a conversation with an old mec. That's why I always mention my sources, so anyone can judge the value of the message. In that case I trusted the guy. After all he could have sold me the more expensive ones. This reflects how we do business in Holland.
So many times that I asked mechanics and that I got a straight answer where they could have easily sold me stuff.
A few examples. I once asked if my bike needed a steering damper. The answer: not you. He had steeringdampers plenty in stock, for other bikes.
Another example: I asked an importer of helmets, if I needed to renew my helmet because of UV light. His answer, standing in front of the biggest collection of new helmets I've seen, was: no, it's a made up story.
Another favourite of me: an importer of motorcycle parts interviewed, explained that most riders were wasting money by prematurely renewing airfilter elements and in that same article he demonstrated how airfilters actually work.
 

[kyle750]

Almost nothing in your last response is even remotely scientific or factual with plenty of pure speculation so I am going to ignore the comment.

[Alan F.]

Thank you @Deltarider that's the best post I've read in a good long time.

The difference between a measurable result and a practical result is thin.
This thin difference has been long used to overcomplicate matters in order to sell more product.