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upperlake04

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On American Decency
« on: April 17, 2007, 07:26:59 AM »
 This post is for my Americans pals. You guys have had a rough ride lately.  If you have time, please read this commentary which was written by a well-respected Washington news correspondent from outside of your country.  Some outsiders are  paying attention.


NEIL MACDONALD:
On American decency
April 16, 2007

There is a man I know here in suburban Washington who is a conservative, which in this country means truly conservative. He is from Wisconsin and attends his church on Sunday and wears his Middle American values like badges on a sash.

He has also benefited richly from the advantages the U.S. offers its well-to-do, and votes Republican.

Nowadays, like many Americans, he regards the war in Iraq as a debacle. But he still argues with his Maryland neighbours against withdrawing American troops precipitously from Iraq, which most Democrats now assume is what the country wants.

If we leave, he says, so many people will die. It's our mess, and our responsibility. He recognizes that American soldiers are dying, but if hundreds of Americans have to die to save hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, well, that's what we have to do, he says, even if Americans aren't welcome there.

In other words, in his view, doing the right thing ought to trump narrowly defined national interest.

Now, it is true that this man bought George W. Bush's case for war four years ago. But now that it's gone bad, he truly does worry about doing the right thing.

Deep down, a great many Americans feel the same way. It can be seen in the polls, although perhaps the sentiment is not phrased as bluntly as my acquaintance puts it.

And whether the rest of the world cares to recognize it or not, Americans often want to do the right thing.

There was no enriching U.S. national interest in leading NATO into Kosovo, against the will of the UN, to save the Muslim minority there from the clutches of Slobodan Milosevic. But the Americans did it anyway.

There was nothing really to be gained by sending troops to Somalia in the 1990s to stop the horrors there. Quite the opposite, in fact. But the U.S. did that, too.

One suspects public opinion here would have pushed troops into Sudan's troubled Darfur region by now, if Iraq was not going so badly.

To be sure, Washington is capable of the same cynical hypocrisy all nations practise to enrich themselves or protect their interests. But it's hard to imagine another country expending so much blood and treasure attempting to do the right thing, even once in awhile.

Here's another impressive thing Americans do: They give to charity. They hand over their cash to help people, pure and simple, and they do it on a scale that shames the rest of the world.

The philanthropy centre at Indiana University reports that, in 2005, American individuals and corporations gave away $260.2 billion, or 2.2 per cent of average household income. That's a significant amount of money, and an increase of six per cent over the previous year.

A breakdown of the figure shows people here gave even more after disasters like Hurricane Katrina or the Asian tsunami.

Why so generous? Certainly the ability to give is part of it. Americans are wealthy. But even in percentage terms, they give away much, much more than people in other rich societies.

The World Bank rated 12 countries for charitable giving in 2005 and found that American individuals gave away 1.7 per cent of the nation's entire economic output, which was more than twice as much as any other nation. Britain and Canada were a distant second at about .73 per cent of GDP. Down at the bottom of the list were the Turks, Germans and French.
Welcome to the neighbourhood

Now, part of that generosity may flow from American religiosity, and the religious duty to give.

By some measures, this is the most religious country in the world, something many people tend to sneer at, especially when the so-called religious right appears to have so much influence over social and foreign policy. And I must admit, I've suppressed shivers of discomfort when American evangelicals have taken my hands and announced that Jesus loves me and they do, too.

But these believers are often also people with a broad streak of civic decency, the sort who get deeply involved in their children's schools (something else Americans excel at), and show up at your door to welcome you to the neighbourhood.

I have lived in several Canadian cities, and overseas, and never have I experienced the sheer openness and sense of community that neighbours here extend to one another.

Americans also work hard. Lucien Bouchard, the former premier of Quebec, was derided in his own province recently for saying it, but Americans work much harder than we Canadians do.

Repeated studies have found that not only do Americans take far fewer annual vacation days (12, as compared to the Canadian average of 20, or the Germans at 27 and the French at 39), they are also the most likely to work more than 40 hours a week.

Americans actually give back millions of vacation days a year.

It's quite the work ethic. Again, you can sneer at it, and many of my European friends do, but the fact is that the America's devotion to hard work is an economic tide that lifts all the world's boats. Besides, why would you criticize a people for rolling up their sleeves and making a better life for themselves?

Though I've never been shy to criticize, I have to say the list of things I admire about Americans has grown since I arrived here four years ago.

They volunteer in greater numbers than any other nationality. Community service is fast becoming a secondary school requisite. And they have created a society where the consumer is king. If you've ever shopped in an American wine store after years of submitting to the faceless government monopolies in Canada, you know that is often a good thing.

This is probably the first country in human history where a homeless person has gone to court against big government and won.

Now, you can argue (and a great many do) that Americans are overly sure of their righteousness and certainly capable of trivializing, if not trampling on, the happiness of others in the headlong pursuit of their own. American society can be more Darwinian than most. But there is certainly a collective decency here.

As China and India rise, and Russia wields its extraordinary resources, one gets the feeling we may be watching the decline of the American empire. Many will cheer that. I find myself wondering whether the next dominant power will feel anything like the same desire to do the right thing.

Offline nickjtc

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2007, 08:33:34 AM »
Very good.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2007, 03:54:29 PM »

Now, you can argue (and a great many do) that Americans are overly sure of their righteousness and certainly capable of trivializing, if not trampling on, the happiness of others in the headlong pursuit of their own. American society can be more Darwinian than most. But there is certainly a collective decency here.

As China and India rise, and Russia wields its extraordinary resources, one gets the feeling we may be watching the decline of the American empire. Many will cheer that. I find myself wondering whether the next dominant power will feel anything like the same desire to do the right thing.

The last two paragraphs are important. Yes we do volunteer a lot and we give a lot of money. The American Empire was built by people fleeing terrible situations. They brought over skills and cunning. They continue to come, and they are cunning also.

Years ago the Japanese were taking over the World and buying up half of NYC. They wound up selling it back for half what they paid, and their economy is on the balls of it's ass.

The Chinese have manpower but not a lot of resources or experience. Russia is going back to some quasi dictatorship and cannot exploit what it has domestically. India will fade. Their companies are experiencing a 50% turnover rate, so their projects are failing. The U.S. and the real people in charge are very good at playing the game in a very Darwinian way. Expect the U.S. Empire to be around a while.

I use the term U.S. since Canada is on the American Continent and you are an technically an American. The U.S. just occupies the middle of the landmass.
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Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2007, 04:21:17 PM »
He recognizes that American soldiers are dying, but if hundreds of Americans have to die to save hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, well, that's what we have to do, he says, even if Americans aren't welcome there.

Then why doesn't he go stand in line at a recruiting station and volunteer to go carry a rifle and fight and risk HIS life for those poor Iraqis?  Or if he's too old, why isn't he sending HIS kids off to go risk their lives for those poor Iraqis?

I HATE people who are all gung-ho for war, but refuse to go themselves OR send THEIR kids, but are REAL quick to send OTHER people's kids to die.  Gutless cowards, the lot of them.

If YOU believe in this war and its righteousness, then YOU go sign up and put your money where your mouth is, or if too old, make YOUR KIDS go.

I REALLY wonder where all the older, chest-thumping Pro-Iraq War chickenhawks were when they had "their" war: Vietnam.  I have not talked to ONE Vietnam vet, (who actually saw the elephant or not), that thinks Iraq is worth it.  To them it's history repeating itself, and the drama that needlessly took the lives of 58,000 boys for some worthless theory about Dominoes is being replayed again, but instead of Dominoes and Reds, the new Boogeyman is "Terrsm and Terrsts".

Offline donny

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2007, 05:45:04 PM »

For those (like above) who do not know it,  this is an all VOLUNTEER Army. No one is forced to join. When ya join, where the hell ya think your going, Paris, Monoco?
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Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2007, 06:05:56 PM »

For those (like above) who do not know it,  this is an all VOLUNTEER Army. No one is forced to join. When ya join, where the hell ya think your going, Paris, Monoco?

Oh, I know it pal.  I would bet better than you.  Are YOU or YOURS serving?

People join to DEFEND their home or directly answer an act of aggression, not be sent off on unnecessary "wars" for money and the military-industrial complex.  The Revolutionary War of 1776, the Confederate side in the War Between the States, the War of 1812 and the Pacific Campaign in WWII were the only times the US military was used in DEFENSE of this country or to answer a direct act of aggression.  Everything else has been for politics and money.

http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm






Offline BobbyR

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2007, 06:14:56 PM »
He recognizes that American soldiers are dying, but if hundreds of Americans have to die to save hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, well, that's what we have to do, he says, even if Americans aren't welcome there.

Then why doesn't he go stand in line at a recruiting station and volunteer to go carry a rifle and fight and risk HIS life for those poor Iraqis?  Or if he's too old, why isn't he sending HIS kids off to go risk their lives for those poor Iraqis?

I HATE people who are all gung-ho for war, but refuse to go themselves OR send THEIR kids, but are REAL quick to send OTHER people's kids to die.  Gutless cowards, the lot of them.

If YOU believe in this war and its righteousness, then YOU go sign up and put your money where your mouth is, or if too old, make YOUR KIDS go.

I REALLY wonder where all the older, chest-thumping Pro-Iraq War chickenhawks were when they had "their" war: Vietnam.  I have not talked to ONE Vietnam vet, (who actually saw the elephant or not), that thinks Iraq is worth it.  To them it's history repeating itself, and the drama that needlessly took the lives of 58,000 boys for some worthless theory about Dominoes is being replayed again, but instead of Dominoes and Reds, the new Boogeyman is "Terrsm and Terrsts".

The only positive we came out of the Vietnam experience is that today the people who serving are not being scorned or being called baby killers when they come home. People realize that the people who serve have nothing to do with those who sent them. Other than that, this is a butt f**K.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2007, 06:22:07 PM »
used in DEFENSE of this country

I tend to believe that the best DEFENSE is more often than not a good OFFENSE.
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Rocking-M

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2007, 06:31:45 PM »
Well said Groovie, the link to the General I have used several times in these discussions.
I hope folks will take the time to read it.

eldar

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2007, 07:16:01 AM »
Well groovie and rockin, I call BullSH*T. Why do I say that? Cause you are willing to talk about it and say how we are only to use our forces in defense and all that.  Why not propose a WAY to make this come to pass.
'Things like that link are all fine and dandy but the real problem lies with the people of this country, NOT those who profit from war. If we as americans actually exercised our FULL rights, instead of letting Bush constantly take then away, we could prevent things like this. IF we worried about doing the right thing OURSELVES, then we would elect official who would work for US. Yet most of the people in this country worry about long terms so their states can get more federal dollars.

If a change is to be made, IT STARTS WITH THE CITIZENS ON THIS COUNTRY. We elect these people and we should demand they work for US not for their own pocketbooks.

I should say that I do not disagree with what you say, just that taking action is the only way to change things.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 07:27:38 AM by eldar, Master of the K8 Thunder! »

Offline donny

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2007, 08:08:13 AM »
 ;D..I love it...when fine folks use the term, "enlighten" , or "raise awareness".  Those same people, of course, do not want to be (enlightnened) or have their own (awareness) raised.  oh no, they know it all, and we are ignorant hillbillies, who, if we will just read their dribble, will become true believers.. 
And I will agree with the original post, N. Americans are not the devil.
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Offline nickjtc

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2007, 08:34:52 AM »
Didn't this post start as a pat on the back for you guys south of the border, one and all?
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eldar

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2007, 08:59:44 AM »
For the people yes but the world view of the US is formed by how our govt interacts with other countries. People hate us then without even KNOWING any americans. Which is why we should be concerned with getting people in office who WILL do the right thing and get then out as soon as they violate that trust.

Offline andy750

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2007, 09:07:24 AM »

I really dont like misinformation....thats my reason for posting this.

First of all I agree that the American people are on a person-by-person basis very generous and helpful. I enjoy living in America. However, it is not the BEST country in the world as the original post suggests. I personally don’t think there is a “best” country in the world. To think like that suggests that other countries are inferior in some way, which they are not.  America is one of many countries in the world where a decent standard of living is to be found, simple as that. Articles like the one posted are propaganda at best and highly misleading.

“And whether the rest of the world cares to recognize it or not, Americans often want to do the right thing.”

The right thing would be to take in more Iraqi refugees. Currently America takes in the lowest number of Iraqi refugees whereas Sweden takes in the most. Figure that one out.

”There was no enriching U.S. national interest in leading NATO into Kosovo, against the will of the UN, to save the Muslim minority there from the clutches of Slobodan Milosevic. But the Americans did it anyway.”

I think you will find that Britain AND America led the way in Kosovo  -it was a Blair policy that was supported by Clinton. The article fails to mention the actual facts…..


”There was nothing really to be gained by sending troops to Somalia in the 1990s to stop the horrors there. Quite the opposite, in fact. But the U.S. did that, too.”

The US pulled out of Somalia and left it to descend into anarchy as soon as one of their missions went horribly wrong. What happened to stay the course?


Here's another impressive thing Americans do: They give to charity. They hand over their cash to help people, pure and simple, and they do it on a scale that shames the rest of the world.
The philanthropy centre at Indiana University reports that, in 2005, American individuals and corporations gave away $260.2 billion, or 2.2 per cent of average household income. That's a significant amount of money, and an increase of six per cent over the previous year
.”

Bullsh%$t. Look at any study and you will see aid given per gross national product and Americans come in way down the list. The Swedes were top and many other countries give more than the US!! Look here for an International study (not one cooked up in the US):

•   Aid as % of GNI
•   Aid in dollars
•   Raw data since 2003
•   More charts
Aid as % of GNI
Net ODA in 2006 as percent of GNI
Country   Aid amount by GNP
Source: OECD Development Statistics Online last accessed Saturday, April 07, 2007
If you are viewing this table on another site, please see http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp for further details.

Sweden    1.03

Luxembourg    0.89

Norway    0.89

Netherlands    0.81

Denmark    0.8

Ireland    0.53

UK    0.52

Belgium    0.5

Austria    0.48

France    0.47

Finland    0.39

Switzerland    0.39

Germany    0.36

Spain    0.32

Australia    0.3

Canada    0.3

New Zealand    0.27

Japan    0.25

Portugal    0.21

Italy    0.2

USA    0.17

Greece    0.16


Ref: http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp#ForeignAidNumbersinChartsandGraphs


”The World Bank rated 12 countries for charitable giving in 2005 and found that American individuals gave away 1.7 per cent of the nation's entire economic output, which was more than twice as much as any other nation. Britain and Canada were a distant second at about .73 per cent of GDP. Down at the bottom of the list were the Turks, Germans and French.
Welcome to the neighbourhood”

Im not sure where Neil McDonald got his facts but you can see from the above link that his statements are clearly wrong. If anyone has a better source then please correct me. This was taken from the World Banks info. Also look at the historical data since 2003…USA has NEVER been top of this table.

”By some measures, this is the most religious country in the world, something many people tend to sneer at, especially when the so-called religious right appears to have so much influence over social and foreign policy.”

By what measures is America the most religious country in the world? Is it more pious as a result or more righteous? That is surely the implication. Do Americans pray 5 times or more per day as Muslim countries do? Wouldn’t they be more religious then? What does it really mean to be MORE religious? Sounds like a bunch of crap to me….I mean really what is the point of this article? Self-serving, preaching to the converted, slap yourself on the back propaganda….

As I say at the top of this…I like Americans and I agree they are very generous, and volunteer for a lot of good causes and are very nice people. But don’t try and tell me with non-factual articles like this that Americans are any better, more religious, more righteous than any other Western country (Ill stick to the “developed” world here).

Cheers
Andy

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eldar

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2007, 09:32:06 AM »
You put this one up yet take down you imus post? I dont get you sometimes.  Oh well. I dont care where we stand in the world of charity. I dont go to church as I dont feel church is where you find faith.   I feel we need to take care of our own before we worry about the rest of the world. We have our own homeless, we have people that go hungry, How are people in africa somehow more important? It is all just politics and nothing more. Besides that, if we keep GIVING people food, they will never climb out of their poverty. They need to be SHOWN how to grow their own food. This just an example though.

upperlake04

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2007, 09:39:37 AM »
  Andy750 - you're a smart guy but you missed the spirit and intent of my post.  It is  addressed to " my American pals" and is for their benefit. We see a lot of America bashing.  Sometimes it is a good thing to note positives in others and then to openly acknowledge them.     Dave

Offline andy750

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2007, 09:42:42 AM »
Eldar, I took down the Imus post as I didnt want to get into that discussion. I felt that would become too personal with certain members I dont agree with and their interpretation and selection of certain "facts". This thread is regarding a recent article where the facts are blatantly mis-represented or not even backed up at all, and in the spirit of the Open forum Im giving my opinion on that.

In any case Eldar I do agree with your post about the Individual so we do agree on that.

Dave I do understand your intent, but the article in question in my mind is propaganda that is not based on real facts. It really gives the impression of being better than someone esle and thats something i dont agree with. I will support and defend my American friends in the same way I support any of my international friends. I dont differentiate based on nationality. But I wasnt slighting you Dave, rather just giving my opinion on the article in question.

cheers
Andy

« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 09:46:32 AM by andy750 »
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BruceA cb550

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2007, 11:36:09 AM »
A history professor once told me that rarely has any form of government lasted beyond 200 years.  Our time is at hand.

Offline mlinder

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2007, 11:42:39 AM »
A history professor once told me that rarely has any form of government lasted beyond 200 years.  Our time is at hand.

There are actually quite a few ancient empires that lasted much longer than 200 years.
The European Monarchies lasted for many hundreds of years.
Asian countries had pretty much unchanged governments for thousands of years as well..

The U.S.A. government has changed dramatically over it's lifespan, I wouldn't say it survived in its initial form for more than a few decades, and has changed even more rapidly every decade after that.

No.


Offline BobbyR

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2007, 12:27:24 PM »
The U.S. may not be the finest nation in the World. When we have a lapse in leadership we correct it at the Ballot box and there is a change coming. Considering how well armed we all are, there are no Coups here. When they list foreign aid that does not account for the money we contribute individually to charities which I think the Author was pointing out.
The majority of our problems originated in Europe. Prior to WWI we were and isolationist industrial power. Our Army was a joke and was being trained with broomsticks. We went isolationist again until WWII and our industrial capacity tipped the balance of the war. We went from an Industrial power to a Military superpower after WWII and became the World's policeman. What if we would have stayed out of WWII, we would have lost the U.K. which would have been a loss. But, would we have had any different relationship with Germany than we had with Russia?. I really don't know. I do know I am sick and tired of getting involved in other peoples messes. We have enough to do here and I think everyone has to sort out their own problems from now on. We had an awful bloody Civil War of our own and we sorted it out ourselves. I think in the coming years you will see that will be the U.S. posture. Now, if you have an earthquake or natural disaster that is a different story. Then you do all you can.
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Offline andy750

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2007, 01:19:28 PM »
"When they list foreign aid that does not account for the money we contribute individually to charities which I think the Author was pointing out."

Bobby, just for your reference its still not quite correct even when taking individual contributions into account...ok just to be clear on that point....the author states;

"A breakdown of the figure shows people here gave even more after disasters like Hurricane Katrina or the Asian tsunami."

Here is an example of government versus public donations to a specific disaster  -the tsunami in 2004 - one of the biggest natural disasters in recent years. Figures are calculated per GDP and from public (individual donations):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_response_to_the_2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake

To summarize - take two examples - Uk versus USA (both of which were not even in the top five!)

UK gives "On 26 February 2005, it was announced that the Disasters Emergency Committee (an umbrella organisation of 12 aid agencies) were closing their appeal after raising a total of GBP 300m in the two months since the disaster struck"

US gives "As of 10 January 2005 US based relief groups and non-governmental organisations reported having raised over USD 515m. "

The British amount of GBP 300m in USD = 600m

Im not saying one is better than the other but the author was, by making misleading statements. Thats the only point Im making here. Does it really matter who gives more as long as you give something based on your own individual wealth. By all accounts Americans should be giving more since they are one of the richest countries.

cheers
Andy

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Offline dusterdude

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2007, 01:21:03 PM »
bobby,i agree,i am tired of us being the worlds savior,we need to take care of our own problems first.
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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2007, 01:53:31 PM »
A history professor once told me that rarely has any form of government lasted beyond 200 years.  Our time is at hand.

The Isle of Man, allthough it is part of the UK has its own government called Tinwald...it's over a thousand years old.

Sam ;)
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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2007, 02:46:10 PM »
Well groovie and rockin, I call BullSH*T. Why do I say that? Cause you are willing to talk about it and say how we are only to use our forces in defense and all that.  Why not propose a WAY to make this come to pass.
'Things like that link are all fine and dandy but the real problem lies with the people of this country, NOT those who profit from war. If we as americans actually exercised our FULL rights, instead of letting Bush constantly take then away, we could prevent things like this. IF we worried about doing the right thing OURSELVES, then we would elect official who would work for US. Yet most of the people in this country worry about long terms so their states can get more federal dollars.

If a change is to be made, IT STARTS WITH THE CITIZENS ON THIS COUNTRY. We elect these people and we should demand they work for US not for their own pocketbooks.

I should say that I do not disagree with what you say, just that taking action is the only way to change things.

Hey Elder, I agree with you 100%.

Offline canyon750

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Re: On American Decency
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2007, 03:36:35 PM »
What i don't understand is if people were so upset at the job Bush was doing with Iraq and the country why the hell did they re-elect the idiot!!!   :o :o  The Iraq situation is a real cluster f**k and history will show it as such.  Pulling the troops out now would be a mistake if the society is left in shambles.  We will end up with an entire country that hates us more than before the whole thing started.  We obviously didn't learn from the past (Vietnam, Korea) that you can't force the will of our way of life on other societies if they don't want it.  The only reason the occupation of Japan and Germany turned out the way they did is that the people wanted change and were strong enough to fight for it.  it is a completely different way of life in the middle east.  The same solution does not work for all situations. 

I'm a Democrat but if a candidate makes sense I'm going to vote for him/her Republican, Democrat, Green or whatever.  The problem with this govt system is that it is too black or white there is no gray area.  Republican or Democrat with no other possible choice.  There are a lot more opinions out there that need to be heard.  Obviously the choices we've had so far have failed us...

Will the American (U.S) Empire fall?  A lot of indications seem to support that claim.  We are so dependant on foreign labor and industry that if one country we depend on stopped their cooperation with the US, we would struggle for years trying to recover.  just think if tomorrow China closed its doors to manufacturing all products to the US industry.  They could take over a large part of the control of this country without ever firing a shot.  So much for our all powerful military...
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