Author Topic: sometimes you can't think...  (Read 2071 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 736cc

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,724
sometimes you can't think...
« on: April 20, 2007, 04:48:28 am »
so heres a quick question: turning points plate clockwise advances or retards timing? (its one or the other) duh

Offline .RJ

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 453
  • homebase in your airspace
Re: sometimes you can't think...
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2007, 05:21:25 am »
Counter-clockwise advances the timing.... at least I think. Dammit, why are the simple things confusing?

Offline 736cc

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,724
Re: sometimes you can't think...
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2007, 06:36:47 am »
anybody know fer sure?

Offline Gordon

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,114
  • 750K1, 550K2
Re: sometimes you can't think...
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2007, 06:50:08 am »
I've never even tried to remember.  I just move the plate a little and see which way it moves the timing, and then go from there. 

Offline 736cc

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,724
Re: sometimes you can't think...
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2007, 06:54:54 am »
anybody?

Offline OldSchool_IsCool

  • Really feeling like an
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,350
  • WARNING: Objects in mirror appear to be LOSING!
Re: sometimes you can't think...
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2007, 07:02:13 am »
Seems to me that if you advance the timing (i.e spark occurs earlier) that you need to move the plate in the opposite direction of points cam rotation.  Since the points cam (i.e the crank shaft) rotates clock-wise, moving the plate counter-clockwise will advance the timing.
Can I have a motorcycle when I get old enough?
If you take care of it.
What do you have to do?
Lot’s of things. You’ve been watching me.
Will you show me all of them?
Sure.
Is it hard?
Not if you have the right attitudes. It’s having the right attitudes that’s hard.

Offline Gordon

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,114
  • 750K1, 550K2
Re: sometimes you can't think...
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2007, 07:10:53 am »

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: sometimes you can't think...
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2007, 10:00:45 am »
OS has it right.

The points cam rotates in a clockwise manner.
Rotating the points plate on the engine conter-clockwise advances the timing.
Point cam events then happen sooner in relation to a fixed mark on the crankcase.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline DammitDan

  • Prodigal Son
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,470
  • It lives!
Re: sometimes you can't think...
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2007, 11:33:47 am »
TT saves the day  ;D
CB750K4

Offline RRRToolSolutions

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,167
  • I love old Japanese bikes!
Re: sometimes you can't think...
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2007, 11:40:17 am »
Guys, it's always easier to remember that if you turn the plate "against" the crank's rotation - it's going to happen sooner/advanced. Turning it with the rotation will make it later/retarded.

I was at a friend's house the other day and saw an helped him with and old KZ750 twin that ran with the crank going backwards..opposite of the tire travel, so be careful with the left/right rule.

Regards,
Gordon 
Kaws, Hondas, Yamahas, and Suzukis - especially Kaws

Offline 736cc

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,724
Re: sometimes you can't think...
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2007, 06:55:47 pm »
Reason I asked, my CB750 has a lousy idle (needs to be set a bit too high 1500rpm or it dies), even after float adjust, carb sync, plugs. It has a dyna ignition which doesn't leave much room for timing plate adjustment. Figured a little advance would smooth it out (as long as it doesn't ping under load).

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: sometimes you can't think...
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2007, 07:12:22 pm »
Actually, you don't want advance at idle.  No need for it.  It should idle better with retarded spark, or something pretty close to the TDC.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline 736cc

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,724
Re: sometimes you can't think...
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2007, 07:40:34 pm »
Thats funny, w/ my Dodge slant-6, it'd ping like mad unless I retarded the distibutor, which gave it a lousy idle.

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: sometimes you can't think...
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2007, 01:21:16 am »
I don't know if we want to talk about slant six designs here.  But, I believe there are some notable differences and possible explanations to your experiences with it.

First be aware that neither engine has fixed ignition timing.  The SOHC4 has a centrifugal advance that changes timing as the RPM increase.  The timing advances with RPM increase.  So, there is an idle timing as well as a full advance timing.  The difference between the two is the timing advance range.   The advance range for the CB750 is 23.5-26.5 degrees.   If you retard the full advance setting, you also retard the idle setting Which is supposed to be 10 degrees BTDC (that's where the F mark is).  Total advance at 2500 RPM is about 35 degrees.

The dodge slant six can have a number of issues regarding its timing.
1) the timing chain can become loose (stretch) and this effects that accuracy or variability of it's timing.
2) The six's timing mark is on the vibration damper which has a rubber bond section.  If the rubber bond fails the timing mark can move relative to the crank's true TDC position.  The result is that you cannot accurately time the ignition.
3) Some versions of the slant six were lean burn models that had a computer controlling advance timing.
4) The slant six has both a mechanical advance similar to the SOHC4 as well as a vacuum advance.  At least some models do, which changes the timing relative to manifold vacuum conditions.
5) The slant six standard timing at idle was 5 degrees BTDC with some running properly at idle with as much as 15 degrees.    The mechanical advance adds 25 degrees advance, for a total of 30-40 degrees.   I can't find specs for what the vacuum advance adds. (probably more during cruise or whenever manifold vacuum is high.

The point is, ping occurs at higher engine RPMS when the mechanical advance is greater.  If you retard the spark to reduce ping, you also retard the idle timing.  When you start firing plugs well after TDC, there isn't time to burn all the fuel before the end of the power stroke, and idle will certainly suffer.  This is likely why your dodge had a lousy idle with retarded ignition.

A couple other points to consider.
1)  Your dodge probably idled around 500 RPM, The SOHC4 idles almost twice as fast.  It would need more advance at idle to provide best "burn time" during the power stroke.
2)  There is no vacuum advance on the SOHC4 to effect the idle or cruise timing.

If you are able to set your timing to Honda specs., and your mechanical advance is operating correctly.  I'm thinking your idle issues are rooted elsewhere besides timing advance.  If it makes you happy, then go for it.  But, you may wish to revisit idle jets, Pilot screw adjustments, etc. to improve idle performance, after your timing experiment.

Cheers,






Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.