Topic: BATTERY NOT HOLDING CHARGE

[carl550k]

I bought a new battery about three years ago, every year it has gotten worse.  I charge it and it will only hold the charge for a day if even that.  Could I have charged the battery wrong to begin with?  The bike runs good right off the charger, but deteriorates very quikly to the point it will barley run.  Is the battery going dead have a direct effect on how it runs?  Looking at all possibilities before going out and just buying a new battery.
The bike is a 76 550K
Thanks
Carl

[Slapguts]

3 years is a good run for a motorcycle battery. Might be worth the $30 for a new one.

[750goes]

have you checked your battery for electrolyte? have you checked your charging system?

[BobbyR]

I ran into that myself, 3 years is a decent but not a great run. I would check your alternator output now to see that is up to snuff. I check mine every year. You should have 14v  at 1,500 rpm and above.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Like the guys say 3 years is not bad for a battery on these bikes.

So, lets say, you buy a new battery. Put a slow initial full charge on it like you're supposed to before you install it. It works fine. FINE!

OR - It DOESN'T hold a charge. So it's not the new fully charged battery that won't hold a charge, it's the charging system won't hold the battery. I'm a devoted follower of the "it's a 30+ year old bike that has MANY dirty, corroded, loose electrical connectors that need to be cleaned, tightened, and put back together with dielectric grease" theory. Yes, this is a real pain in the ass! Yes, it really costs nothing too!!

The rest of the charging system is relatively bullet proof (not the bullet connectors). I'd bite that bullet and clean every friggen one before I even touched or worried about any electrical components. That is unless there is something obviously wrong.

ps GET A BATTERY TENDER or any other smart charger provided you don't have one

[johnny-from-bel]

In 2003 I wrote following mail to the sohc4 mailing list.
Until today (2007) the mentioned test battery is still in service.



There have been a lot of messages and discussions on using EDTA. I decided
to try it out for myself.
The object of the test is a battery that I put out of commission 3 years
ago because it could not hold its charge (red light on my batt. charger).

When I diched out the battery it was 90% dry. So I topped with distilled
water, the tension was 5.5V.

So I ordered some EDTA and followed the instructions ; disolve in water and
add 0.5ml per cell for a 12AH battery.

Shake and leave it for a few days. Visualy I can see chips of coppersulfate
falling to the bottem. This means the sulfate is comming lose from the
plates. As it does not conduct electricity it does not do any harm. Now for
the test, I hooked it up to the charger. Orange light good sign, after two
days on the charger still no green light. So I decided to add an other 1 ml
EDTA solution and repeat the treatement. Still no green light after 3 days.

So far I had only been charging so I deceded to reverse the process and
hooked up a 12W lamp for a night. In the morning the battery was completely
depleted (0V). I unhooked the lamp and put the battery on the charger after
two days I had a green light from the charger.

If not completely, the EDTA tratement has made the battery usable again.

I am now adding 1 ml EDTA solution to every battery I have. Just to slow
down the sulfatation process.

This is just my personal experience, yours may vary.

Johnny-from-belgium.

Of course this all does not help faeces if your charging system does not work properly.

[TwoTired]

I bought a new battery about three years ago, every year it has gotten worse.  I charge it and it will only hold the charge for a day if even that.  Could I have charged the battery wrong to begin with? 

Yes.  How DID you charge it?

The bike runs good right off the charger, but deteriorates very quickly to the point it will barley run.  Is the battery going dead have a direct effect on how it runs? 

Yes.  The spark voltage is directly proportional to the battery voltage.  When the spark voltage becomes marginal, the engine runs erratic, at best.

When did you last check your charging system voltage?

What is your headlight wattage?

[gerhed]

3 years is a good run for a motorcycle battery. Might be worth the $30 for a new one.

Had a battery on my Indian for 17 years .

[KB02]

3 years is a good run for a motorcycle battery. Might be worth the $30 for a new one.

Had a battery on my Indian for 17 years .

Wow. I thought I was doing good wit seven years with the stock battery on my Ducati (Finally changed it out last fall).

I'll agree with what everyone said: Check your charging system first. Treat the cause, not the symptom.

[clarkjh]

Check you charging system, I just checked mine and it was 17.8 volts at 1200 .
Repaired the point gap in the regulator, now at 12.3 volts at 1000, not sure if I should bring it down to 12 volts even or not.  Glad I didn't have my new battery yet, that high voltage would have cooked the new one in no time flat.

James

[carl550k]

the reason im suspecting the battery is about a month ago we had a spell of nice weather so i thought i would get my bettery ready. i keep it inside a bedroom closet for the winter months. i charged it with an auto type charger, not a trickle charger. after charging for about 2 days still no green light on the charger.put it in the bike and all is well, starts up, idles, no problems. the weather since changed so i took the battery out after maybe an hour and back in the house. a month goes by  before i try to start the bike again, thinking i have a fully charged battery i put back in the bike and nothing, not even a dash light will come on. i bought this battery from a local bike shop brand new, it did not come charged or with any fluid in it so in a hurry to get the bike on the road i used tap water and the automotive battery charger not a trickle charger. i think that where the problems started. when it was new it lasted all summer, the next year i had to charge maybe 2-3 times, this year so far it will hold a charge maybe only a couple of days. i think its time to spend the 30$

[BobbyR]

3 years is a good run for a motorcycle battery. Might be worth the $30 for a new one.

Had a battery on my Indian for 17 years .

Ger, that is when they made old school batteries with thick lead plates and tar across the top. Today the plates are thin lead/antimony jobs. They have more punch for their size with more plates, but I find they will fail suddenly. I remember seeing guys melt off the tar clean it up inside and replace the plates and tar the sucker back up again, fill it with acid and sell is to you for about 40% of what a new one cost. My old man was a fan of rebuilt batteries and recapped tires. Damn I'm old.

[Gordon]

i bought this battery from a local bike shop brand new, it did not come charged or with any fluid in it so in a hurry to get the bike on the road i used tap water and the automotive battery charger not a trickle charger. i think that where the problems started.

I'd have to agree.  Buy a new battery and follow the directions this time. 

[TwoTired]

3 years is a good run for a motorcycle battery. Might be worth the $30 for a new one.

Had a battery on my Indian for 17 years .

I didn't know Indians had electric start.  I'm impressed!

[TwoTired]

the reason im suspecting the battery is about a month ago we had a spell of nice weather so i thought i would get my bettery ready. i keep it inside a bedroom closet for the winter months. i charged it with an auto type charger, not a trickle charger. after charging for about 2 days still no green light on the charger.put it in the bike and all is well, starts up, idles, no problems. the weather since changed so i took the battery out after maybe an hour and back in the house. a month goes by  before i try to start the bike again, thinking i have a fully charged battery i put back in the bike and nothing, not even a dash light will come on. i bought this battery from a local bike shop brand new, it did not come charged or with any fluid in it so in a hurry to get the bike on the road i used tap water and the automotive battery charger not a trickle charger. [SNIP]

I got this far and I was thinking..." I can hardly wait til he gets to the part where he roasted the battery over hot coals for a few hours and then taped up the holes in the battery case from the shotgun pellets."

I mean, if you are going to do a torture test....


 
Cheers,

[BobbyR]

the reason im suspecting the battery is about a month ago we had a spell of nice weather so i thought i would get my bettery ready. i keep it inside a bedroom closet for the winter months. i charged it with an auto type charger, not a trickle charger. after charging for about 2 days still no green light on the charger.put it in the bike and all is well, starts up, idles, no problems. the weather since changed so i took the battery out after maybe an hour and back in the house. a month goes by  before i try to start the bike again, thinking i have a fully charged battery i put back in the bike and nothing, not even a dash light will come on. i bought this battery from a local bike shop brand new, it did not come charged or with any fluid in it so in a hurry to get the bike on the road i used tap water and the automotive battery charger not a trickle charger. i think that where the problems started. when it was new it lasted all summer, the next year i had to charge maybe 2-3 times, this year so far it will hold a charge maybe only a couple of days. i think its time to spend the 30$

Smooth this out for me. You bought a dry battery this much I get. Did they give you acid to add to the battery or did you just fill it with tap water? Or did you add tap water to top it off? Whatever happened you will need another battery. You can use an auto charger if it has a 2 amp setting. Put your acid in, put the charger on and take  a long nap, or get it charge ovenight. In the morning put that bad boy in and RIDE.

[johnny-from-bel]

i bought this battery from a local bike shop brand new, it did not come charged or with any fluid in it so in a hurry to get the bike on the road i used tap water and the automotive battery charger not a trickle charger. i think that where the problems started.

I'd have to agree.  Buy a new battery and follow the directions this time. 

yep, that battery is only good for target practice. A new dry battery needs to get filled with battery acid and charged overnight.
Never top up with tap water allways use distilled water. The minerals in tapped water react with the acid and lead in the battery reducig its capacity.

[Pinhead]

When got my battery for my bike it was dry and I had to add the acid. I measured the voltage after I added the acid and it was already at ~12.1v. I didn't even have to charge it... Just hooked it up to my bike and it's been working perfectly ever since. Starts up every morning, even when it's really cold and the bike doesn't want to fire (it'll spin ~800rpm). I haven't had a single worry about having a dead battery.

Charging it at 13.3v with the r/r that I built should make it last longer through the summer, too (won't boil it with heat).

[edbikerii]

the reason im suspecting the battery is about a month ago we had a spell of nice weather so i thought i would get my bettery ready. i keep it inside a bedroom closet for the winter months. i charged it with an auto type charger, not a trickle charger. after charging for about 2 days still no green light on the charger.put it in the bike and all is well, starts up, idles, no problems. the weather since changed so i took the battery out after maybe an hour and back in the house. a month goes by  before i try to start the bike again, thinking i have a fully charged battery i put back in the bike and nothing, not even a dash light will come on. i bought this battery from a local bike shop brand new, it did not come charged or with any fluid in it so in a hurry to get the bike on the road i used tap water and the automotive battery charger not a trickle charger. i think that where the problems started. when it was new it lasted all summer, the next year i had to charge maybe 2-3 times, this year so far it will hold a charge maybe only a couple of days. i think its time to spend the 30$

First off, find yourself a better local bike shop.  I've never heard of a local bike shop selling a battery without acid.  Mail order, yes, but not a local shop.  Heck, even Pep Boys sells (Energizer brand) motorcycle batteries with the acid in a container inside the box.  The shop should have charged it for you too.  How much did they charge you for this dis-service?

Second, are you saying that this battery worked for 3 years with no acid, just tap water?  That is unbelievable.  I've never tried it myself, but I can't believe it worked at all!  Maybe you've got some super acidic tap water in your neighborhood?

Get a new battery from a better shop.  Let them prep it for you, including a full charge.  Maybe you'll have to wait a day for it.  It will be worth it.  Automotive battery chargers are ok at the 2amp setting and some even have an automatic shut-off when fully charged like a battery tender.

[Snowdigger69]

Most of us take the battery out of service in the fall and give no more thought to it untill spring. Batteries, if not placed on a charger or recharged at regular intervals, sulfate. The plates get encrusted with scale. The scale acts as an insulator and hold less and less of a charge. They will show 12 or more volts with a tester but it is only a surface charge. If you don't start your machine at least once a month or so over the winter invest in a battery tender it will recharge on a regular basis and stop the sulfating problem. I had a starter alternator shop for many years and looked forward to spring and fall for the additional battery business!!

[johnny-from-bel]

Most of us take the battery out of service in the fall and give no more thought to it untill spring. Batteries, if not placed on a charger or recharged at regular intervals, sulfate. The plates get encrusted with scale. The scale acts as an insulator and hold less and less of a charge. They will show 12 or more volts with a tester but it is only a surface charge. If you don't start your machine at least once a month or so over the winter invest in a battery tender it will recharge on a regular basis and stop the sulfating problem. I had a starter alternator shop for many years and looked forward to spring and fall for the additional battery business!!

See my EDTA post.

[TwoTired]

When got my battery for my bike it was dry and I had to add the acid. I measured the voltage after I added the acid and it was already at ~12.1v. I didn't even have to charge it... Just hooked it up to my bike and it's been working perfectly ever since. Starts up every morning, even when it's really cold and the bike doesn't want to fire (it'll spin ~800rpm). I haven't had a single worry about having a dead battery.

I have to disagree with this posting. 
Yes, the battery activates with the addition of electrolye, and the voltage appears normal, possibly even high. A battery at 12.1 volts is most certainly NOT fully charged.   However, the voltage is only part of the story.  You could get this voltage even if you insulated 80% of the plate material in each cell.  The peak capacity of the battery, or the ability to provide rated power is acheived only after the full saturation initial charge.  What this initial charge is supposed to accomplish is full involment and saturation of all the electrolye and the porous plate materials, voiding any air pockets, and eliminating oxidation of the plate material during storage.  This cannot be acheived without charge currents, and high charge currents can damage and overheat the battery before full saturation occurs.  Ideally, you want to slowly sneak up to the full 14.5v battery voltage charge peak with diminishing charge currents as you approach this level.  This should be accomplished with equipment normally found at the point of sale.  Or, the seller should ensure that the buyer has capable equipment to provide this function at time of installation.   Batteries that have not had the proper initial peak charge will have a shorter usefull life than ones that have, though there are cerainly other storage and maintenance issues that can also curtail battery life.

Batteries not properly charged initially may not ever reach their peak storage rating.  Your bike may appear to operate fine with a battery operating at 80 or 90 percent of its capacity.  The capacity is NOT measured solely with a voltmeter, but also the current and time span of the drain.  This is not normally done with lead acid batteries, unless a problem is suspected, because each discharge/charge cycle shortens the useful life of the battery.

The following characteristics will tell you if a battery has been properly charged:
1. The specific gravity of the acid is over 1.275 (conventional type batteries only).
2. Maximum voltage output across battery terminals can be maintained at constant level for two hours.
3. Open circuit voltage is stablilized @12.7v or higher

Cheers,

[ic455]

IMHO a new battery would probably be the easiest way to go, since 3 years is a good run for the old one as mentioned before. 
I just got schooled about reviving a dead battery today:  When I first got my 750 K6 last year the battery was dead.  Checked the fluid level, and was bone dry.  Filled with distilled water, jumped bike off and rode a bit keeping the rpms around 2k(keep in mind I had almost zero brakes) then parked it and disconnected battery.  Everytime I'd work on the bike I'd reconnect the battery and kickstart the bike, always disconnecting when I was done.  My starter switch was and is broken and when jumping the solenoid the starter would just clunk or barely turn the engine(1/8 of a stroke or less).  I figured the starter was bad too.  Today I went to start the bike after a hard session of electrical work yesterday and found the battery dead.  Hooke jumper cables to my pickup and for the hell of it jumped the solenoid, dunno why I did it.  The starter whirred with enthusiasm!  Turned ignition on and jumped solenoid again, engine started!  Left it hooked up to my truck and guess what, no sooty black exhaust billowing out of my pipe.  Disconnect from truck and light stayed bright, engine smooth, no smoke.  Shut it off after kepping rpm around 1500-2k for a few minutes, then tried jumping solenoid again-click.  Lights dimmed, no start.  Battery is likely toast. 
Since I am replacing 80% of the parts on this bike anyways, I have now added a new battery to my list.
Man, sorry for the long post!

[ic455]

Oh, truck wasn't running, just using the power of the battery.

[carl550k]

well tried again after i had the battery on charge for at least 24 hours. bike started and idled fine, for the hell of it hooked up a multimeter set to dvc at 20 and touched the probes to both side of the battery. showed a reading of 12.68 with the bike off. then started and let idle, the reading was 11.78. both readings did flucuate slightly. i am assuming the battery is still not fully charged.

[BobbyR]

well tried again after i had the battery on charge for at least 24 hours. bike started and idled fine, for the hell of it hooked up a multimeter set to dvc at 20 and touched the probes to both side of the battery. showed a reading of 12.68 with the bike off. then started and let idle, the reading was 11.78. both readings did flucuate slightly. i am assuming the battery is still not fully charged.

If your reading is 11.78 with the bike running it is being discharged. Try bringing up the idle and watch the voltages. Somewhere around 1,500 - 2,000 rpm it should start charging. If not, your regulator is out of adjustment.

[carl550k]

just checked again bike off 9.81. with the bike running it is 11.68, if you bring up the rpm's the voltage will rise/increase steadily.the battery lost voltage just sitting overnite and it didn't go under 55 degrees.

[BobbyR]

just checked again bike off 9.81. with the bike running it is 11.68, if you bring up the rpm's the voltage will rise/increase steadily.the battery lost voltage just sitting overnite and it didn't go under 55 degrees.

If your voltage is going up into the 14V range. A trip to Walmart or Sears is in order.

[eldar]

I recently got a new battery. I got an AGM batt from batteries plus. Fully charged and ready to go. It is the exact same size plus it came with 2 BIG bonuses. I do not have to add water! I also do not have a drain tube and no more worries about acid corroding my batt box!
Plus from what I have read, you get much more cranking amps from these batteries than you do from a standard batt.  It was $58 or so.  I have also read various sources online that say these batteries last longer and are more resistant to vibrational damage.

[ic455]

I recently got a new battery. I got an AGM batt from batteries plus. Fully charged and ready to go. It is the exact same size plus it came with 2 BIG bonuses. I do not have to add water! I also do not have a drain tube and no more worries about acid corroding my batt box!
Plus from what I have read, you get much more cranking amps from these batteries than you do from a standard batt.  It was $58 or so.  I have also read various sources online that say these batteries last longer and are more resistant to vibrational damage.

Is that a Gel Cell, or similar?

[eldar]

Absorbed glass mat. It is a more advanced batt than a gel. It would be like an optima.

[ic455]

Absorbed glass mat. It is a more advanced batt than a gel. It would be like an optima.

is this it?
http://www.batteriesplus.com/pc-34344-59-XTA14AHL-BS%20XTREME%20PERMASEAL%20HIGH%20PERFORMANCE%20AGM%20POWERSPORT%20BATTERY.aspx

[eldar]

That would be it. Great little battery. It has a lower amp hour rating but delivers more amps but that is always a trade off.  Kinda like when you add more batteries together. The more you add, the higher the voltage which is able to then overcome the internal resistance and deliver more amperage but the batteries will run down quicker. But in this case, the glass mat holds the solution onto the plates for better coverage which produces more amperage but about the same voltage.

[ic455]

cool, Eldar, thanks for the heads up.  Needed a new battery anyway, glad to have a better option.

[johnny-from-bel]

In 2003 I wrote following mail to the sohc4 mailing list.
Until today (2007) the mentioned test battery is still in service.



There have been a lot of messages and discussions on using EDTA. I decided
to try it out for myself.
The object of the test is a battery that I put out of commission 3 years
ago because it could not hold its charge (red light on my batt. charger).

When I diched out the battery it was 90% dry. So I topped with distilled
water, the tension was 5.5V.

So I ordered some EDTA and followed the instructions ; disolve in water and
add 0.5ml per cell for a 12AH battery.

Shake and leave it for a few days. Visualy I can see chips of coppersulfate
falling to the bottem. This means the sulfate is comming lose from the
plates. As it does not conduct electricity it does not do any harm. Now for
the test, I hooked it up to the charger. Orange light good sign, after two
days on the charger still no green light. So I decided to add an other 1 ml
EDTA solution and repeat the treatement. Still no green light after 3 days.

So far I had only been charging so I deceded to reverse the process and
hooked up a 12W lamp for a night. In the morning the battery was completely
depleted (0V). I unhooked the lamp and put the battery on the charger after
two days I had a green light from the charger.

If not completely, the EDTA tratement has made the battery usable again.

I am now adding 1 ml EDTA solution to every battery I have. Just to slow
down the sulfatation process.

This is just my personal experience, yours may vary.

Johnny-from-belgium.

Of course this all does not help faeces if your charging system does not work properly.

The fore mentioned battery died last week. Bought an new Yahusa, it comes with a sulfate stop (EDTA) allready in it.

The weather is fabulous. So I poped the battery in the  F2 and went for a spin. I usualy ride to my brothers place (he has a considerable stock of premium beers   )

Only one though, no drunk driving !