Author Topic: Pods Thread  (Read 134949 times)

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crystalhelix

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #200 on: May 08, 2008, 11:39:46 am »
This was a great read.  It took up at least 3 hours of my workday! :D

Offline Gordon

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #201 on: May 08, 2008, 11:45:40 am »
This was a great read.  It took up at least 3 hours of my workday! :D

Welcome to the forum!  We can't thank you enough for actually reading this thread rather than just posting another version of the same question.  You'll do well here! ;D

Offline MRieck

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #202 on: May 08, 2008, 02:47:59 pm »
This was a great read.  It took up at least 3 hours of my workday! :D
Learning and getting paid to do so.....what could be better. ;) ;D
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #203 on: May 08, 2008, 07:54:05 pm »
Woo hoo!  I hope you learned something!  I know I did!  It took up a lot more than three hours of my workday(s)!

This was a great read.  It took up at least 3 hours of my workday! :D
SOHC4 #289
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Needles:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg253711#msg253711

uptworedline

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #204 on: May 08, 2008, 08:16:47 pm »
i read almost the entire thread. well not really, but i haven't come to a conclusion. i want pods, but it seems like more people have bog problems or jetting problems than those who don't; unless all the satisfied ones haven't posted? ehh, i'll probably just keep the stock box and get a k&n filter for it.

Offline ralt12

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #205 on: May 08, 2008, 08:59:01 pm »
I think I got pretty lucky on the pod issue. Needles one clip from the bottom, main jets to 110's, stock slow jets, and it runs like a champ. (CB550F, pods, MAC 4-1, stock everything else but tuned; HondaMan ignition on my desk waiting for some carb O-rings, mine are a teeny bit weepy)

crystalhelix

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #206 on: May 16, 2008, 12:05:22 pm »
yeah, reading tends to upset the regulars a lot less, I belong to some other forums but this is the first one for my motorcycling hobbies...

I am going with EMGO pods oiled with K&N oil, 120 mains, 40 idle, and needle clip position 1 from the bottom position on a 75 750F.  I got it started last night and seems to idle well (now that I finally have #1 firing).  Looking for a solution to my broken synchronizer but I will will give some feedback on what I think once the tune up is done.

All in all the factory airbox does work well but it (IMO) is a major pain in the ass with 33 year old rubber.  I also wanted the look of the pods and once it's balanced I have no issues with futzing to get it to run right.  Part of the fun of having an old school bike.

Offline andy750

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #207 on: May 16, 2008, 02:48:53 pm »
All in all the factory airbox does work well but it (IMO) is a major pain in the ass with 33 year old rubber. 

Why not just spend the $$s and replace the rubbers?  ::) Once you do the airbox goes on/off in seconds (yes literally!).

But hey go for the styling and looks of pods if you wish but thats no guarantee of performance enhancement  ;)
Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
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Offline neil young

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #208 on: May 16, 2008, 03:33:46 pm »
All in all the factory airbox does work well but it (IMO) is a major pain in the ass with 33 year old rubber. 

Why not just spend the $$s and replace the rubbers?  ::) Once you do the airbox goes on/off in seconds (yes literally!).

But hey go for the styling and looks of pods if you wish but thats no guarantee of performance enhancement  ;)
i have been looking every where for carb to airbox rubbers for my 77 550....hahahahahaha.it seems the rubbers come with the airbox  one part # for both (the irony)
1972 CB500 k1
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Offline seaweb11

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #209 on: May 18, 2008, 08:58:14 pm »
I'll look around and see if I have set someone could use.

Offline slabbedask

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #210 on: May 20, 2008, 02:19:01 am »
Interesting thread indeed! I just replaced the pods on my 76 CB750F1 with a stock airbox. And what a difference it was! Main jets were alread replaced with 115's for the pods, and the bike came with a non-stock 4-1 header and some king of sport bike muffler. With the pods it ran waaay too lean. Bogging on several rpm's requiring minute throttle movements, poor WOT performance, and all of the exhaust valves were burned, one cracked... Not too pleasant to ride at all. Got an airbox via eBay,and also found NOS rubbers for it on evilbay. (And yes, it makes it a dream to install the box...) Used Keyster kits on the carbs, but the 105 mains supplied were too small. Had to reuse the 115's. This with everything stock exept the exhaust. So it appears that the exhaust is the reason for the rejetting needs on my bike. Not the most experienced MC-mechanic, but thought I'd share my experience with this anyway....
Now I just can't wait to see how getting exhaust valves closing properly will affect this, if I may have to return to the 105's again....
Summer's starting to get a good hold here in Mid-Norway, I want to get out of the workshop and back on the road again!!

Offline j-conn

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #211 on: June 02, 2008, 10:53:57 am »
Blast...
I guess i am just going to have to try it too!
Those pods were just so cool.

Having just read through this thread (at work as well)... it kinda seems as if the boxers have the more compelling story.
When i took my carbs out i damaged alot of the rubber between them and the box so i just figured i would throw some pods on.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 11:05:11 am by connjob »
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Offline nteek754

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #212 on: June 11, 2008, 06:24:48 am »
Hey all in my opinion pods are better for performance, and if you need to frig witht he carbs for any other reason  without that stock airbox in the way its easy to get around in that area. Some people just got to understand JET IT RIGHT what ever your set up. Have fun Craig in Maine
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Offline Muk

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #213 on: June 11, 2008, 06:51:05 am »
I agree with nteek. mine runs great with pods now if i could just get rid of that hideous 4 into 4 and get a header all in the world will be well
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #214 on: June 11, 2008, 09:36:02 am »
Anybody got any test numbers, like horsepower/torque graphs or drag strip times, to show pods alone (vs. other additional mods besides jetting) actually made performance improvements?
I'd seriously like to see the data.

It's not that I think anyone is lying, it's just that...  like thinking with one's dick, thinking with the seat-of-the-pants, or sound of the ear, can lead to misleading assumptions.  I also speculate (perhaps wildly) that gains made at RPM's, possibly above red line, are balanced with performance losses in the the lower RPM band, where much of the street riding takes place.

Anybody?

Just trying to separate assumption from fact.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline mlinder

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #215 on: June 11, 2008, 09:45:08 am »
I'm actually not thrilled with (cheap) pods on the cb750.
Easy enough to dial in, but just as hondaman said, they create some weird turbulence at certain RPMs, causing some rough transitions in acceleration in a couple spots.
Now, they are cheap pods, so the K&N's with built in velocity stacks may alleviate that problem.

But, TT, it kinda stands to reason that if you have to jet up to get more fuel for the increased amount of air that you are pulling in, it means that you are getting both more fuel and air at a given RPM. More fuel and more air = more bang. More bang = more power.

But no, I have no dyno to 'prove' this, though the science that supports this is pretty well documented.
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Offline hapsh

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #216 on: June 11, 2008, 10:21:00 am »
I think the main thing you have to understand about swapping the stock airbox with pods is that it is not a simple change of higher air flow.  If it was that easy all you would have to do would be to jet richer at all throttle positions.  The fact is that the stock airbox design incorporates velocity stacks (AKA rubber airbox boots) and a plenum box.  The Velocity stacks work to keep air flowing towards the intake by reducing the tendency to backflow between intake strokes at lower rpm.  The plenum box is designed to tune out the back flow pulses, basically increasing resistance to the backflow pulses at low RPM, keeping the air flowing forward.  Without the velocity stacks intake airflow tends to swirl in the carb throat at lower RPM causing the average vacuum to drop, thus richening the mixture at that specific RPM.  What you end up with is throttle positions that are richer, and some that are leaner.  From my tests on my 75 550, I found the mixture map with UNI pods and stock carb settings was this;
Idle-lean
1/8 throttle just off idle -rich
1/4 throttle -normal
1/2 throttle -slightly lean
3/4 to WOT -lean.
So, for me to jet these issues out I had to adjust the airscrew richer, raise the jet needle, and increase my main jet to 105.  However, I had no way to deal with the off idle richness except for modifying my slide cutaway.  I didn't want to deal with that so I was able to compensate fairly well for this off idle richness by leaning both the idle mixture and the jet needle.  However, lowend torque seemed lacking even though the mixture was very close.  So I went back to the stock air box and put in a UNI filter.  I definitely could feel a large increase in low end torque and midrange power.  I believe by keeping the airflow stable via the plenum box and velocity stacks the engine can produce more power in the low to mid range.  I wish I had dyno to show the difference, but I don't.  The strange thing was that I really could not detect any increase in WOT power when I had the pods installed.  What I suspect many might be feeling as more power at WOT at high RPM is the idea that power band just moved up, so you feel more of a kick in the pants once you go past 5k RPM.  With the stock airbox the power delivery is smoother so there is not an abrupt power increase at the top end.
'71 CB500/550, '72 CB450, '79 RD400 Daytona, '90 FZR600R

Offline Gordon

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #217 on: June 11, 2008, 10:24:29 am »

But, TT, it kinda stands to reason that if you have to jet up to get more fuel for the increased amount of air that you are pulling in, it means that you are getting both more fuel and air at a given RPM. More fuel and more air = more bang. More bang = more power.

It would be really nice (and a helluva lot easier) if it were that simple. 

Offline BobbyR

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #218 on: June 11, 2008, 10:25:50 am »
I'm actually not thrilled with (cheap) pods on the cb750.
Easy enough to dial in, but just as hondaman said, they create some weird turbulence at certain RPMs, causing some rough transitions in acceleration in a couple spots.
Now, they are cheap pods, so the K&N's with built in velocity stacks may alleviate that problem.

But, TT, it kinda stands to reason that if you have to jet up to get more fuel for the increased amount of air that you are pulling in, it means that you are getting both more fuel and air at a given RPM. More fuel and more air = more bang. More bang = more power.

But no, I have no dyno to 'prove' this, though the science that supports this is pretty well documented.
You are assuming you are getting more air and also assuming by mixing more fuel with that air you are automatically going to get more power. There is a lot of Science going on around that fire in the cumbustion chamber. Why is it that my old 289 HO Mustang had less power and 1/2 the fuel mileage than a more current 5.0L engine. You must engineer to an outcome and test to be sure you have gotten the outcome you expected.
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Offline mlinder

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #219 on: June 11, 2008, 10:28:41 am »
You might be correct, hapsh.

I didn't mean to imply that the degree of upping jets with pods was linear.
On the kz650, I'm running stacks. I'm having to go back to stock slow jet size, while I had to increase main jet from 97.5 to a whopping 120.

If I had a wideband AF meter, it sure would make things simpler.

I can tell you, however, that the cb750 with pods and slightly opened 4 into 4's, there was a power increase from 6 grand to 10 grand.
I know this from how well (or unwell, really) I was able to keep up with modern bikes from the changes.
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Offline mlinder

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #220 on: June 11, 2008, 10:34:22 am »
Bobby,

You cant compare two different engines in this case.

You can only look at your 289.

Simple fact: If you get more flow into your 289, it will make more power. Period.

Gordon,

I'm well aware that there is more to it than that, but again, to make more power, without increasing combustion chamber efficiency and design, you must get more air and fuel in there. A number of things can do that. Cam, porting, intake, and exhaust, supercharging. Any and all of those.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #221 on: June 11, 2008, 10:56:08 am »
But, TT, it kinda stands to reason that if you have to jet up to get more fuel for the increased amount of air that you are pulling in, it means that you are getting both more fuel and air at a given RPM. More fuel and more air = more bang. More bang = more power.

No, sir.  You increase jet sizes to compensate for the loss of choking restriction pulling on the jet orifice and must respond with larger orifices to restore the A/F ratio.  Restoring the A/F ratio, does NOT mean making more power.

The amount of fuel drawn through a jet is a function of differential pressure across the jet orifice.  You draw more fuel through existing jets via application of choke.  Choke deepens the vacuum in the carb throat forcing more fuel to pass through a given orifice size.  This makes the air fuel mix richer for cold operation.

The same effect occurs with filter restriction changes.  Pods generally have less restriction than the stock air box system, and therefore carb throat vacuum is diminished and less fuel is drawn through a given jet orifice size.  To restore the proper air fuel mix ratio, you have to make the jet orifice larger, to allow the same fuel flow at a lower differential pressure.

Pods do not increase output power at idle settings, yet the slow jet orifice size must increase or carb adjustments must be made to "richen" the mix at idle.  The same is largely true for midrange setting where pods often require needle jet changes to adjust mixture, but NOT to produce more power.  Main jet is increased for similar reasons, loss of throat pressure differential applied to the metering jet orifices.

With a pure pod change, the engine mechanicals have not increased their volumetric efficiency.  Only the inlet restriction, or "choking effect".  The engine still requires the same ratio of air fuel for a given RPM.  Pods won't deliver "more" air unless the engine is modified to require it or you rev it up higher, outside the design parameters for the stock induction.   Near and above red line is where the inlet restriction does or can effect quantity of air getting to the engine.  (Like breathing through your mouth instead of through your nose).   I can believe that because more air (oxygen) is made available for combustion at the high rev end, proportional increases of the main may be higher than the low and mid range increases.  But, much of the size increase is due simply to throat pressure change from diminished "choking effect".

Again, I ask for hard test data, instead of conjecture or rationalizing arguments.  Bigger jet sizes, does NOT mean more air, or more power.  Track times and/or dyno performance curves might, though. 
Personally, I think the "pod people", if you'll pardon the expression  ;D, will be surprised at how little performance, if any, they've gained on their street machine, by installing pods.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Gordon

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #222 on: June 11, 2008, 11:15:18 am »

No, sir.  You increase jet sizes to compensate for the loss of choking restriction pulling on the jet orifice and must respond with larger orifices to restore the A/F ratio.  Restoring the A/F ratio, does NOT mean making more power.

The amount of fuel drawn through a jet is a function of differential pressure across the jet orifice.  You draw more fuel through existing jets via application of choke.  Choke deepens the vacuum in the carb throat forcing more fuel to pass through a given orifice size.  This makes the air fuel mix richer for cold operation.

The same effect occurs with filter restriction changes.  Pods generally have less restriction than the stock air box system, and therefore carb throat vacuum is diminished and less fuel is drawn through a given jet orifice size.  To restore the proper air fuel mix ratio, you have to make the jet orifice larger, to allow the same fuel flow at a lower differential pressure.

Pods do not increase output power at idle settings, yet the slow jet orifice size must increase or carb adjustments must be made to "richen" the mix at idle.  The same is largely true for midrange setting where pods often require needle jet changes to adjust mixture, but NOT to produce more power.  Main jet is increased for similar reasons, loss of throat pressure differential applied to the metering jet orifices.

With a pure pod change, the engine mechanicals have not increased their volumetric efficiency.  Only the inlet restriction, or "choking effect".  The engine still requires the same ratio of air fuel for a given RPM.  Pods won't deliver "more" air unless the engine is modified to require it or you rev it up higher, outside the design parameters for the stock induction.   Near and above red line is where the inlet restriction does or can effect quantity of air getting to the engine.  (Like breathing through your mouth instead of through your nose).   I can believe that because more air (oxygen) is made available for combustion at the high rev end, proportional increases of the main may be higher than the low and mid range increases.  But, much of the size increase is due simply to throat pressure change from diminished "choking effect".



I was totally just about to say the exact same thing, but Lloyd beat me to it! ::) ;D ;D ;)

Offline mlinder

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #223 on: June 11, 2008, 11:31:59 am »
While true, what you've stated only holds up if the standard airbox and filter are NOT RESTRICTIVE, meaning they can deliver as much fuel and air that the engine can use at WOT @ 9.5k
If the airbox and filter are restrictive, you can, in fact, deliver more air and fuel to the engine with pods or stacks.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 11:41:22 am by mlinder »
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Offline hapsh

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #224 on: June 11, 2008, 12:30:40 pm »
'71 CB500/550, '72 CB450, '79 RD400 Daytona, '90 FZR600R