Author Topic: Pods Thread  (Read 134919 times)

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Offline Maxacceleration

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #350 on: November 13, 2008, 10:38:42 am »
Thank you TwoTired, awesome reply.
Yes then I will keep my stock airbox with a Uni replacement filter.
No, I don't plan to run at redline all the time... well maybe on my RD ;-)

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Offline moham

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #351 on: November 13, 2008, 10:41:54 am »
Is it time to go?   ;D

I'm waiting for the signal.
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Offline paulages

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #352 on: November 13, 2008, 10:43:04 am »
Thank you TwoTired, awesome reply.
Yes then I will keep my stock airbox with a Uni replacement filter.
No, I don't plan to run at redline all the time... well maybe on my RD ;-)




nice. that looks fun.
paul
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1973 CB750K3
1972 NORTON Commando Combat
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Offline texaninseattle

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #353 on: November 13, 2008, 10:46:16 am »
where in the PNW are you? oh and welcome to the forum
1978 Cb550k(Sold)
emgo pods
mac 4-1
105 mains
stock pilots
needles set 1 step richer than stock
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Offline Really?

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #354 on: November 13, 2008, 10:49:38 am »
Nice RD!  I had one as a teen but for the life of me, I do not know what happen with it.  There are a few bikes I remember having but have no idea where they went.  Things dissapeared from my house a lot then, even the hookers that lived there.  I have no idea where they went either.
I don't have a motorcycle, sold it ('85 Yamaha Venture Royale).  Haven't had a CB750 for over 40 years.

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The Kid's Bike - 750K3

Offline Maxacceleration

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #355 on: November 13, 2008, 10:50:19 am »
Thanks for those addional links paulages.  ;D

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #356 on: November 13, 2008, 10:54:57 am »
I agree, I think most people over-jet rather than jetting properly.

I'm regularly getting about 42-43 MPG now with my pods, mac, and 105 mains.  I have some handicaps, though.  I have a lead-foot (uh, hand?), and I love to engine brake all the time.  So, I could probably do better.
SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
1986 GL1200I - SOLD
2004 BMW R1150R

Jetting: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg258435#msg258435
Needles:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg253711#msg253711

Offline tygrant

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #357 on: November 13, 2008, 11:24:11 am »
i went with pod, open exhaust and lower gearing on mine because i plan on beating the crap out of it. i live pretty close to new england drag way so im sure she will get her flogs in at track. then again i havent even ahd it running yet so it could run like total dog hsit... well see!
1975 CB550F - cafe
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2002 HD fatboy

Offline goon 1492

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #358 on: November 14, 2008, 06:54:42 am »
TwoTired you made me think, what if someone could come up with a pod filter that had a flapper valve at the top of the pod that was vacuum pressure activated that would open up at high throttle, the only thing that stumps me is coming up with a power booster that will shoot an extra jet of fuel upon opening of the valve. I mean without adding turbo or anythig like that.
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Offline hapsh

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #359 on: November 14, 2008, 08:38:03 am »
I recently went back to UNI pods on my 550 with Mac exhaust and get 52 mpg.  Stock main jet of 100 plus the jet needle one clip richer than stock.  It runs better on the low end with the stock airbox but it is hard to make the bike look right with my oval side number plates with a clunky airbox in there. :D
'71 CB500/550, '72 CB450, '79 RD400 Daytona, '90 FZR600R

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #360 on: November 14, 2008, 08:50:20 am »
TwoTired you made me think, what if someone could come up with a pod filter that had a flapper valve at the top of the pod that was vacuum pressure activated that would open up at high throttle, the only thing that stumps me is coming up with a power booster that will shoot an extra jet of fuel upon opening of the valve. I mean without adding turbo or anythig like that.

It's actually quite pleasing to hear that I stimulated some synapses.  It seems that so many regard such an occurrence as something to avoid at all costs and akin to torture.  You made my day. :)

However, it's probably best to start with a clearly defined problem, toward which to supply a solution.  What is the actual problem you are trying to solve?

If your goal is to get that extra 2 HP at or above red line by running Pods, or compensate for engine mechanical changes.  Then change the mains, needles, and idle settings to provide the right ratio of fuel at all throttle settings. (This takes time and effort, mind you.)

If your goal is to make a well mannered and responsive street bike to ride with minimum effort, stick with the stock air filter arrangement and use a Uni Nu-4055 element (for the 550).

If you just want to make the bike look like it might be a racer from a casual glance, and never have to prove you made an actual performance enhancement, then put on pods, hack the jetting adjustments, and take lots of pictures.  Internet readers can't tell if your ride is a pig or a prize while driving.  They'll ooh and aah over the bling pics, regardless. ;D

Cheers,

P.S.
Philosophically speaking;  If you are trying to eek out every last HP from the little engine, without regard for longevity of same, why bother with pods at all?  Go directly to a velocity stack.  You'll get better power increases from those and less jetting hassles with turbulent airflow. You'll still have to re-jet, though. (PODs don't smooth the air flow.  In fact, they make air far more turbulent right at the entrance to the carbs.  "Fingers" of high and low pressure areas then extended over the jet feeds into the carb throat and change their flow parameters unpredictably over varying air speeds.)

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline mark

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #361 on: November 14, 2008, 09:07:50 am »
..... Redmond, texanin (no not microsoft  ;D)

Redmond not microsoft.......    Redmond, OR??

 :)

1976 CB550K, 1973 CB350G, 1964 C100

F you mark...... F you.

Offline tygrant

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #362 on: November 14, 2008, 09:20:54 am »
hey TT have you ever stuffed the bottom of the slides? i used to do it on my round slide snowmobile motors and it made an amazing differnce for such a small change. total pain in the balls to jet right though, lookin at my carbs when they were apart i think these carbs could benefit from it
1975 CB550F - cafe
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Offline goon 1492

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #363 on: November 14, 2008, 09:30:30 am »


P.S.
Philosophically speaking;  If you are trying to eek out every last HP from the little engine, without regard for longevity of same, why bother with pods at all?  Go directly to a velocity stack.  You'll get better power increases from those and less jetting hassles with turbulent airflow. You'll still have to re-jet, though. (PODs don't smooth the air flow.  In fact, they make air far more turbulent right at the entrance to the carbs.  "Fingers" of high and low pressure areas then extended over the jet feeds into the carb throat and change their flow parameters unpredictably over varying air speeds.)



That is why I settled with a stock version of the K&N filter, I didn't want pods but I didn't want to buy a new filter all the time so I settled with K&N. I figured that I was "meeting in the middle" with going that way, this was so I could keep the velocity stacks that came with the air box and I thought they would help to re-orientate the loss of correct air flow from adding the K&N, my only problem is that I was missing the bottom half of my air box. I made a plate to cover the bottom of the filter and I have taken it on a few 2 mile rides on the outer highway road by my house and didn't feel any power changes, This will probably change though when I get the sled backtogether and really get it on the highway, I have a pic below to kinda show my setup and TwoTired can you comment on my thoughts? Am I heading the right way with what I am thinking and maybe this could be an option for others to follow(mainly noobs to tuning because it can be a headache to some when learning) and settle in the middle.
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Offline Maxacceleration

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #364 on: November 14, 2008, 09:32:36 am »
Redmond, Wa. I don't work at MS though...

TwoTired makes a good point.
You don't have to go to pods for increased, easy smooth power.
That is still true today.
I will do the Uni replacement and maybe one up on main and one up (richer) on the needles...
If it needs it (gonna be seat of the pants and warmup time).

..... Redmond, texanin (no not microsoft  ;D)

Redmond not microsoft.......    Redmond, OR??

 :)


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Offline goon 1492

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #365 on: November 14, 2008, 09:40:26 am »
Oh yeah not to misdirect anyone, That is an old pic and I no longer have an inline filter ::) :P, my tank screen works fabulous! I also plant to glue on sides to my lower half  plate to the K&N to help bring in air from the back side of the filter(by the rear tire), This will be so I can keep form sucking in too much heated air off the motor and so if I get stuck in the rain (because its not an if I get caught in the rain issue but a when).

This filter cap is a work in progress and if I can master it I plan on making and selling a few kits made up with the K&N, new hardware and possibly new velocity stacks along woth the bottom plate out of Polycarbonate. I am not totally sure right now if it would even be worth it, but with the "bling" factor and making it look like an old hotrod setup I think others would like the effect like I have.
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Offline tygrant

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #366 on: November 14, 2008, 10:25:58 am »
these are the slide stuffers i was talking about, i dont think this company makes a slide that will fit the stock carbs but its something you could make up.

http://www.hiperf.com/acatalog/UFO_Carb_Slide_Stuffer.html
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #367 on: November 14, 2008, 11:46:59 am »
Reminds me of the old shaker hood scoops on 70's Mustangs.  I don't know if they really added anything, though.

Seems kind of redundant when you consider that the CB550's slides open up fully when you hit full throttle, thereby allowing in as much air as possible.  Simultaneously, the needle uncovers the entire cross-section of the main jet, allowing maximum fuel flow.  If you can simply eliminate the restriction of the filtering medium/carb throat (free-flowing pods and/or velocity stacks), and match the jetting properly, then you have achieved the theoretical maximum air flow through your carbs.

The initial opening of the throttle causes issues on these old slide carbs because there isn't sufficient vacuum initially to suck fuel through the jets.  That's why accelerator pumps were added on so many carbs (750 carbs, for instance -- and most auto carbs).  Once the fuel flow is established, the initial "squirt" from the acc pump is no longer required.

TwoTired you made me think, what if someone could come up with a pod filter that had a flapper valve at the top of the pod that was vacuum pressure activated that would open up at high throttle, the only thing that stumps me is coming up with a power booster that will shoot an extra jet of fuel upon opening of the valve. I mean without adding turbo or anythig like that.
SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
1986 GL1200I - SOLD
2004 BMW R1150R

Jetting: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg258435#msg258435
Needles:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg253711#msg253711

Offline goon 1492

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #368 on: November 14, 2008, 12:56:30 pm »
Ahhh I see edbikerii , I haven't messed with the newer k8 carbs. Thanks
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #369 on: November 14, 2008, 02:12:36 pm »
hey TT have you ever stuffed the bottom of the slides? i used to do it on my round slide snowmobile motors and it made an amazing differnce for such a small change. total pain in the balls to jet right though, lookin at my carbs when they were apart i think these carbs could benefit from it
these are the slide stuffers i was talking about, i dont think this company makes a slide that will fit the stock carbs but its something you could make up.

http://www.hiperf.com/acatalog/UFO_Carb_Slide_Stuffer.html
I don't have any experience with Mikuni carbs.  And, I haven't used the part referred to. However, the part seems to tout the function that is stops air bypassing the slide itself.  The Keihins have a gasketed top cover above the slides to prevent that.  It also appears that on the Keihin carbs the part would go on the bottom of the slide where the throttle valve cutaway is.  Changing this airflow shape will effect transition from the slow/pilot fuel supply to the throttle valve.  I can see why you would say that the carbs are quite difficult to jet properly.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #370 on: November 14, 2008, 03:03:56 pm »
That is why I settled with a stock version of the K&N filter, I didn't want pods but I didn't want to buy a new filter all the time so I settled with K&N. I figured that I was "meeting in the middle" with going that way, this was so I could keep the velocity stacks that came with the air box and I thought they would help to re-orientate the loss of correct air flow from adding the K&N, my only problem is that I was missing the bottom half of my air box. I made a plate to cover the bottom of the filter and I have taken it on a few 2 mile rides on the outer highway road by my house and didn't feel any power changes, This will probably change though when I get the sled backtogether and really get it on the highway, I have a pic below to kinda show my setup and TwoTired can you comment on my thoughts? Am I heading the right way with what I am thinking and maybe this could be an option for others to follow(mainly noobs to tuning because it can be a headache to some when learning) and settle in the middle.


I also use the K&Ns on my 750's.  I still don't have a lot of seat time on my 750's, though.
Getting rid of the bottom of the air box and the inlet restrictor it had, would theoretically reduce any restriction that occurs from the inlet opening.  For the same reason that pods don't increase power at lower RPMS, your inlet mods will have little effect at those same inlet speeds.  The opening size isn't a restrictive factor until large air demands occur. Your mod ought to have the effect of helping power output at or near red line rpm related air speeds, but it might need a main jet increase to do so.  (provided you are actually getting more O2 into the piston chambers.)
 Air is a fluid.  All fluids behave more like solids when velocity is increased.  You can slip into a pool of water easily from a 1 foot height.  Fall from a mile up and the water has the same effect as falling to the ground.  You can move through air easily at a walking pace.  Getting hit with a body of air going Mach1, and you may look as flat as a french pancake.
The point is, inlet restrictions become more significant as inlet velocity increases.  The filter media becomes a barrier at high velocities, where the outside of filter facing the atmosphere remains at atmospheric pressure, but the other side that faces the suction demands of the cylinder has lower pressure.  The faster the velocity demanded, the more vast the differential pressure becomes.  Air in a negative pressure state contains less O2 than that of atmospheric.  Yet the deeper vacuum that occurs in the carb throat pulls harder on the fuel metering orifices.  This actually interferes with the carbs own venturi effect where it purposely narrows the inlet to increase velocity and create a vacuum to draw fuel for the fuel metering jets.  So the metering jet and the inlet restriction must be balance to attain proper fuel air mixture for both efficiency and power.

Consider this.   Say Honda made the stock setup so that the ideal air fuel ratio is achieved at say 1/3 throttle position and at speed X where 5HP is needed for the bike to maintain this speed.
 And then, you change the air inlet so more air and O2 reaches the cylinder at X speed and 1/3 throttle position.  The A/F ratio simply HAS to be wrong.  In theory, you would need to increase the fuel delivery to match the increased O2.  If you do that, then you should be able to cruise at the same X speed at something less than 1/3 throttle position, because now you make the same power to maintain that speed at a lower power setting.  The rub is that the air inlet change may let in more air, but it also changes the carb throat vacuum which also pulls fuel from the jets  (Because of the air filtration boundary obstruction.)  This is only one phase of the tuning.  There is also the mode where max acceleration is desired and the throttle Wide open. (Where most people fixate when doing engine "tuning".

Enough for now...

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline paulages

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #371 on: November 14, 2008, 05:44:00 pm »
That is why I settled with a stock version of the K&N filter, I didn't want pods but I didn't want to buy a new filter all the time so I settled with K&N. I figured that I was "meeting in the middle" with going that way, this was so I could keep the velocity stacks that came with the air box and I thought they would help to re-orientate the loss of correct air flow from adding the K&N, my only problem is that I was missing the bottom half of my air box. I made a plate to cover the bottom of the filter and I have taken it on a few 2 mile rides on the outer highway road by my house and didn't feel any power changes, This will probably change though when I get the sled backtogether and really get it on the highway, I have a pic below to kinda show my setup and TwoTired can you comment on my thoughts? Am I heading the right way with what I am thinking and maybe this could be an option for others to follow(mainly noobs to tuning because it can be a headache to some when learning) and settle in the middle.


I also use the K&Ns on my 750's.  I still don't have a lot of seat time on my 750's, though.
Getting rid of the bottom of the air box and the inlet restrictor it had, would theoretically reduce any restriction that occurs from the inlet opening.  For the same reason that pods don't increase power at lower RPMS, your inlet mods will have little effect at those same inlet speeds.  The opening size isn't a restrictive factor until large air demands occur. Your mod ought to have the effect of helping power output at or near red line rpm related air speeds, but it might need a main jet increase to do so.  (provided you are actually getting more O2 into the piston chambers.)
 Air is a fluid.  All fluids behave more like solids when velocity is increased.  You can slip into a pool of water easily from a 1 foot height.  Fall from a mile up and the water has the same effect as falling to the ground.  You can move through air easily at a walking pace.  Getting hit with a body of air going Mach1, and you may look as flat as a french pancake.
The point is, inlet restrictions become more significant as inlet velocity increases.  The filter media becomes a barrier at high velocities, where the outside of filter facing the atmosphere remains at atmospheric pressure, but the other side that faces the suction demands of the cylinder has lower pressure.  The faster the velocity demanded, the more vast the differential pressure becomes.  Air in a negative pressure state contains less O2 than that of atmospheric.  Yet the deeper vacuum that occurs in the carb throat pulls harder on the fuel metering orifices.  This actually interferes with the carbs own venturi effect where it purposely narrows the inlet to increase velocity and create a vacuum to draw fuel for the fuel metering jets.  So the metering jet and the inlet restriction must be balance to attain proper fuel air mixture for both efficiency and power.

Consider this.   Say Honda made the stock setup so that the ideal air fuel ratio is achieved at say 1/3 throttle position and at speed X where 5HP is needed for the bike to maintain this speed.
 And then, you change the air inlet so more air and O2 reaches the cylinder at X speed and 1/3 throttle position.  The A/F ratio simply HAS to be wrong.  In theory, you would need to increase the fuel delivery to match the increased O2.  If you do that, then you should be able to cruise at the same X speed at something less than 1/3 throttle position, because now you make the same power to maintain that speed at a lower power setting.  The rub is that the air inlet change may let in more air, but it also changes the carb throat vacuum which also pulls fuel from the jets  (Because of the air filtration boundary obstruction.)  This is only one phase of the tuning.  There is also the mode where max acceleration is desired and the throttle Wide open. (Where most people fixate when doing engine "tuning".

Enough for now...

Cheers,




seriously... someone compile this stuff.
paul
SOHC4 member #1050

1974 CB550 (735cc)
1976 CB550 (590cc) road racer
1973 CB750K3
1972 NORTON Commando Combat
1996 KLX650 R

Offline tygrant

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #372 on: November 15, 2008, 05:45:09 am »
hey TT, I dont think that its purpose to seal off the slide if thats what your saying, the mikunis are sealed at the top as well, the point is to stop the circular turbulence cause by the recess in the bottom of the slide. when i tuned the machine in i had to almost triple the size of the pilot jet and only up the main a few sizes, i was skeptical  at first but once dialed in i saw awesome gains. here is a better diagram from the company,

http://www.thunderproducts.com/u_f_o.htm
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Offline hapsh

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #373 on: November 15, 2008, 07:27:57 am »
hey TT, I dont think that its purpose to seal off the slide if thats what your saying, the mikunis are sealed at the top as well, the point is to stop the circular turbulence cause by the recess in the bottom of the slide. when i tuned the machine in i had to almost triple the size of the pilot jet and only up the main a few sizes, i was skeptical  at first but once dialed in i saw awesome gains. here is a better diagram from the company,

http://www.thunderproducts.com/u_f_o.htm
It would be nice if there was something similar for our Keihins.  I will certainly be willing to try those on my RD though. :D
'71 CB500/550, '72 CB450, '79 RD400 Daytona, '90 FZR600R

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Pods vs Airbox (550)
« Reply #374 on: November 15, 2008, 12:12:51 pm »
hey TT, I dont think that its purpose to seal off the slide if thats what your saying, the mikunis are sealed at the top as well, the point is to stop the circular turbulence cause by the recess in the bottom of the slide. when i tuned the machine in i had to almost triple the size of the pilot jet and only up the main a few sizes, i was skeptical  at first but once dialed in i saw awesome gains. here is a better diagram from the company,

http://www.thunderproducts.com/u_f_o.htm
(The following turned out to be a bit of a ramble.  Ignore if you like.  ;D )

That's a better pointer to its function.  I think I understand it better, now.  I agree, it is not to seal the sllde bore.
 Again, I must state that I don't now details of the Mikuni carb physical layout.  I'm going to have to assume it is similar to the Keihin for this discussion.  If this isn't true then this entire analysis is likely invalid.

The Keihin slide forward edge facing the engine is placed just over the pilot circuit delivery hole.  When the slides are near closed (at idle), that exit hole sees maximum vacuum from the engine AND the highest air flow for venturi (pressure drop) effect.  These two factors combine for a cumulative low pressure draw on the pilot circuit.  The UFO (stupid marketing name) moves the high velocity low pressure area over the throttle valve.  Thus losing some draw on the pilot delivery hole, since now the only suction is from the intake stoke of the engine.  This might explain why you had to make the pilot jet larger, as with the UFO in place, vacuum draw on the jet was less than stock configuration.

I can see where the UFO might improve airflow matters at midrange to WOT throttle.  Both the mains circuit and the throttle valve are now where max airspeed through the carb float is the highest (where mac restrict is).  And, the concept would help to keep the airflow laminar, which could be helpful for max breathing in the engine at high air velocities.

However, I disagree with their atomization depiction.  Laminar flow of the air does NOT lead to even atomization or smaller droplets (despite what their artist envisions).  It's actually the reverse it operation.  Turbulent flow increases atomization distribution and smaller droplet size within the airflow and promotes more even distribution pairing of the fuel with the available oxygen molecules.

I just noticed the artist depiction of the UFO shape does not match the actual picture of the UFO.  While it has a straight ramp from front to rear. (rather than ramp and flat portions the artist draws,  It still has depressions on either side of the ramp, so the entire bottom of the slide cutaway is NOT filled (which is implied in the drawing showing laminar flow).

I expect that with re-jetting the UFOs will still allow the engine to operate properly.  But, I'd be skeptical of actual power or efficiency gains.  I'd have to see comparative dyno and A/F ratio charts, with the inserted devices as the only mechanical variable (besides jetting).  If the A/F ratio charts are the same, then power gains can be attributed to the UFOs.

Lastly, I'd have to wonder why both Mikuni and Keihin didn't offer a such slide bottom configuration in it's original offering.  Being an engineer, I know that lot's of things are tried in the lab that never make it to production.  Certainly carb engineers are aware of air flow issues through their carbs.  So, there could be a real reason that the slide bottoms are the shape they are.  And, why would they offer a shape that was known to produce less power in a highly competitive sales arena that favored high performance engines?  The only valid reason I can think of might be a cost/performance trade off.  But, is machining the slide bottoms to a different shape a significant cost issue?  The people who sell the UFO would have you believe they are smarter than the people who make and sell carburetors successfully on a mass scale.  I'd afraid their artist renditions have not convinced me this is true.  So, I ask myself, do I want to pay for a product that requires me to go through all the work of properly re-jetting carburetors, based on an unproven claim of increased horsepower?   And, for me personally, I don't think I'm sufficiently bored or inclined to add a claimed (unproven) 3 HP to a thirty year old engine.
 I CAN tell you that the piece part cost for that plastic shape is well below $3, and probably below $1.  So, it is a high profit margin product.  Maybe I'd like it more if I were a dealer?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.