Author Topic: Why this Virginian will never accept Gun Control 37th Anniversary (Read 13275 times)

TwoTired · « **Reply #75 on:** May 08, 2007, 05:12:18 PM »

Quote from: bill440cars on May 08, 2007, 03:36:05 PM

I wasn't going to get involve in a while and I have been browsing once in a while. Today, I noticed that the Military was mentioned as having access to guns. In a way, they do. Their weapons are kept in an arms room, which has a vault in it and that's where the weapons are kept. They can't just go in and get their weapon any time they want it. There has to be a legitimate reason and they have to check it out. Also, the amunition is kept at a place called "The Ammo Dump". Just thought I ought to set the record straight on that part. It is done that way period.

Yes, that is the way for "issued" guns, when not fielded in a duty situation. I could argue that the military's weapon access procedure has more to do with theft control than actual personal availability. You cannot deny that military personel have access to private weapons. Or, that large numbers of personnel "On duty" have weapons and ammo on person who don't shoot each other when an argment needs settling.

There were certainly large numbers of troops in vietnam that lived with and slept with weapons and ammo available 24/7 for months and years on end. Was any combat deployment any different? I think the Army and Marines have ready access moreso than the Navy or Air Force.

But, this is certainly an aside from the original point being made. Availability of guns does not make people with non-criminal intent have criminal intent, period.

Cheers,

bill440cars · « **Reply #76 on:** May 08, 2007, 05:38:20 PM »

TT,
The weapons issue in the Military, IS an accountability issue. Anybody has access to private weapons. I'm not really understanding the meaning of that one. Personnel "On Duty" having weapons was anything other than blanks, would only be in a threatening type situation. I agree with you, in that those who are on duty with weapons and ammo are more concerned with the possible threat than anything else. A situation like Vietnam was something in itself. I was in the active Air Force for 4 yrs and spent 23 yrs in the Army Reserve and was involved with weapons at my Civil Service job also. In both situatuions, you were only allowed to get your weapon for Range Fire, Cleaning or IF you were sent to a "hostile area" that required the weapon. And, I'd like to say that I'm not trying to distract from the main discussion here. Just wanted to clarify some things. And, in closing, I want to say that I whole heartily agree with you about the fact that "AVAILABILITY OF GUNS DOES NOT MAKE PEOPLE WITH NON-CRIMINAL INTENT, HAVE CRIMINAL INTENT!" Take care TT.

Later on, Bill

eldar · « **Reply #77 on:** May 09, 2007, 06:31:22 AM »

Well M, you sure make it sound that way. You also sometimes make it sound like the south is the only area with patriotism.
But patriotism is not just blindly running off to kick some country's ass if we dont like them. It is about making our country the best it can be and protecting it against REAL threats and not PERCEIVED threats.

I also love the constitution, it is a pretty neat paper and at one time actually meant something. That is my whole basis for things. Our current admin has gone so far away from the constitution that we have lost most of it, hopefully just temporarily though.

bill440cars · « **Reply #78 on:** May 09, 2007, 10:18:17 AM »

It was brought to my attention that what I posted earlier, about weapons control "IN THE MILITARY", sounded like I was for complete gun control and nothing could be further from the truth! Let me make it perfectly clear. I AM NOT, NOR HAVE I EVER BEEN FOR GUN CONTROL! I was previously talking about IN THE MILITARY ONLY and their procedures is for ACCOUNTABILITY. That being said, I'm out of here!

Later on, Bill

Rocking-M · « **Reply #79 on:** May 09, 2007, 06:37:33 PM »

Elder, the reason I come off that way is I am a student of history.
Not the history printed by the victors either. The victors always print
the revised version, what was it Orwell called it, "The Ministry of Truth".
Since I never have agreed with the concept of total war, which is what
our government so wantonly wages in every war we enter, I do so even more so
since I know it's origin in Lincoln's war and the national acceptance of this tactic that
has followed under the guise of "Patriotism". It is not Patriotism to run round the world
and kick ass.

Thomas J. DiLorenzo's article looks at this origin, and he is of northern birth also I think.

Malice Toward All, Charity Toward None: The Foundations of the American State

http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo123.html

How does this tie into gun control, because this is what our government is capable of
and this is why we should not give up our guns.

"Whereas civil-rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as military forces, which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
-- Tench Coxe, in Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution

eldar · « **Reply #80 on:** May 09, 2007, 07:46:20 PM »

Well as for history, as they always say. There are 3 sides to every story. And none of them is ever the complete truth.

ofreen · « **Reply #81 on:** May 25, 2007, 10:51:56 PM »

No comment.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070525/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_australia_starwars;_ylt=AhzSNYhdXuh_OeJoR3QycxOdk3QF

TwoTired · « **Reply #82 on:** May 26, 2007, 10:28:03 AM »

The article was seriously flawed. It needed Rolling Stone music playing behind it.

"Under My Thumb"

Truely, a nation of subjects.

How long before they need a permit for a 2x4? For legitimate building purposes, of course.

ofreen · « **Reply #83 on:** May 26, 2007, 06:27:04 PM »

Quote from: TwoTired on May 26, 2007, 10:28:03 AM

Truely, a nation of subjects.

Pretty amazing. It seems like we are right behind them, unfortunately. How does the old saw go?

"They came first for the Star Wars nerds,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Star Wars nerd.
Then they came for the ...." and so on.

Terry in Australia · « **Reply #84 on:** May 27, 2007, 02:53:03 AM »

Yawn..........................

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

eldar · « **Reply #85 on:** May 27, 2007, 10:33:28 AM »

You're right, YAWWWNNNNN

All of this is boring. funny how Oz is not in there. I am sure it happens there too which is surprising since there is nothing there to kill someone else for! Oh wait, didnt Oz produce the wiggles and koala brothers? Those abysmal tv shows shown by disney?

ofreen · « **Reply #86 on:** May 27, 2007, 03:32:08 PM »

Quote from: Terry in Australia on May 27, 2007, 02:53:03 AM

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

A sad list. An even sadder one is on this page -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

What do you reckon every one of those populations had in common?

edbikerii · « **Reply #87 on:** May 27, 2007, 05:12:32 PM »

Ooooh! Ooooh! I know! I know!

Aw, forget it. What's the point, anyway? Gun control is not about facts, it is about emotions, votes, and crowd control. The gun, and the violent "gunman" are very powerful images for those who don't scratch the surface to get to the facts. Who can argue against such imagery that the "evil" gun is actually a peacekeeper and a crime preventer? Mere facts, scientific studies, and statistics pale in comparison to such violent imagery.

Good link, ofreen, but I'm sure it'll be countered here with ignorant emotional appeals or anecdotes, or simply dismissed as worthless or boring, or "obviously wrong". Or maybe they'll say, "that could never happen here", just like they said in Nazi Germany in 1938.

Just in case the ignorant might wish to be brought to light:
"Of Holocausts and Gun Control"http://ls.wustl.edu/WULQ/75-3/753-4.html

Quote from: ofreen on May 27, 2007, 03:32:08 PM

Quote from: Terry in Australia on May 27, 2007, 02:53:03 AM

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

A sad list. An even sadder one is on this page -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

What do you reckon every one of those populations had in common?

BobbyR · « **Reply #88 on:** May 27, 2007, 06:19:06 PM »

I am a NRA life member since I was in Boy Scouts. This thread is so tedious. There are people who believe in private firearm ownership and those that do not. None of us are going to change our minds no matter what anyone says. I am pro gun.

Just tie up a loose end. I am Pro United States(all 50 as is), Pro Gun, Pro Choice, Pro Flat Tax, Pro Military, Anti War(after 1945),Pro Republican(at times),Pro Environment. Anti Welfare,Pro Education.

Now that is where I am at. I am sure each of those points have pissed off somebody. We live in a society where people seem to need to be pissed off.

I will get back to selecting more lovelies to post. If the lovelies piss you off you need therapy.

edbikerii · « **Reply #89 on:** May 27, 2007, 07:30:11 PM »

BobbyR: First of all, I agree with you on the issue. Also, I find this one-sided "debate" tedious, too. I've also posted pictures in the boob thread. I enjoy that too. But this is an important issue that bears education.

We should not let ignorance and scare tactics dominate an issue as important as this. Intelligent people, even opinionated ones, can learn. Intelligent people can, and should, change their minds when they learn that they didn't have all the facts.

Do you think that most "anti-gun" people know about the correlation between gun control and genocide that ofreen and I cited? Do you think most "anti-gun" people know that more than 250,000,000 people have been killed by their own governments soon after those governments instituted gun control laws? Do they know that one of those governments was a FIRST-WORLD DEMOCRACY that was also an economic and military superpower?

Imagine for a second:

TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY MILLION innocent people going about their lives.
Imagine them running away, only to be dragged back, tortured and then killed.
Imagine TENS OF MILLIONS of children crying as their parents were dragged away.
Imagine TENS OF MILLIONS of parents crying as their children were dragged away.
Imagine that some of those governments developed more efficient ways to kill people because BULLETS WERE TOO COSTLY.
Imagine how helpless those innocent people were.
Imagine trying to bury them all.

Now that's tedious.

Quote from: BobbyR on May 27, 2007, 06:19:06 PM

I am a NRA life member since I was in Boy Scouts. This thread is so tedious. There are people who believe in private firearm ownership and those that do not. None of us are going to change our minds no matter what anyone says. I am pro gun.

Just tie up a loose end. I am Pro United States(all 50 as is), Pro Gun, Pro Choice, Pro Flat Tax, Pro Military, Anti War(after 1945),Pro Republican(at times),Pro Environment. Anti Welfare,Pro Education.

Now that is where I am at. I am sure each of those points have pissed off somebody. We live in a society where people seem to need to be pissed off.

I will get back to selecting more lovelies to post. If the lovelies piss you off you need therapy.

ofreen · « **Reply #90 on:** May 27, 2007, 10:52:50 PM »

Quote from: BobbyR on May 27, 2007, 06:19:06 PM

This thread is so tedious.

It does get tedious countering the various civil disarmament arguments. What's the alternative? Let the gun banners have all the say? There are people who have not made up their mind about it, or are open-minded enough to consider another view, or even change their mind. I have met many who have.

You are right. Boobs are a lot more fun. There must be topless Rosie shots out there and I will post them when I find 'em.

Thanks for the back up, edbikerii.

Terry in Australia · « **Reply #91 on:** May 28, 2007, 04:25:45 AM »

Mental Disorders in America

Mental disorders are common in the United States and internationally. An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older — about one in four adults — suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year.1 When applied to the 2004 U.S. Census residential population estimate for ages 18 and older, this figure translates to 57.7 million people.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/numbers.cfm#Intro

Gun Ownership in America

Percentage of Households With a Gun Percentage of Adults Owning a Gun

49% 31%

Total number 47,600,000 Total number 59,100,000

http://www.justfacts.com/issues.guncontrol.asp

Any chance that one or two of these guys with a legitimate mental illness might also be "legitimate gun owners"? Any chance that one or two might also be vocal "pro-gun" people? Perhaps even on this site? Statistically, very likely, I'd think?

(remember, I didn't write these statistics, I just quoted them and provided the links................)

edbikerii · « **Reply #92 on:** May 28, 2007, 06:09:14 AM »

Nice, Terry. You are a very clever boy. You remind me of a kid I knew in school who, when asked to present his homework, told the teacher, "my dog ate it". Oh my, how we all laughed! Funny, that kid still failed all the exams.

Quote from: Terry in Australia on May 28, 2007, 04:25:45 AM

Mental Disorders in America

Mental disorders are common in the United States and internationally. An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older — about one in four adults — suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year.1 When applied to the 2004 U.S. Census residential population estimate for ages 18 and older, this figure translates to 57.7 million people.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/numbers.cfm#Intro

Gun Ownership in America

Percentage of Households With a Gun Percentage of Adults Owning a Gun

49% 31%

Total number 47,600,000 Total number 59,100,000

http://www.justfacts.com/issues.guncontrol.asp

Any chance that one or two of these guys with a legitimate mental illness might also be "legitimate gun owners"? Any chance that one or two might also be vocal "pro-gun" people? Perhaps even on this site? Statistically, very likely, I'd think? (remember, I didn't write these statistics, I just quoted them and provided the links................)

Noel · « **Reply #93 on:** May 28, 2007, 11:07:23 AM »

Hey Terry!

Fun little stat you present. Easily defanged by noting that here in the "Land of the Diagnosable", the general category of "mental disorders" includes things like chronic mild depression, bulimia, and fear of snakes. (All of this came from clicking through the links in the sources you presented. http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/numbers.cfm#Intro. So yeah, I am sure there are folks out there with eating disorders AND guns. Golly.

Now, as long as we're playing with statistics, I think it might be fun to build on the "America is violent because of guns" deal. Check out the various "death by hands and feet" listing for various countries. Turns out that Americans kill each other more in that category than do the citizens of other countries with all methods combined. We're one of the most homicidal countries on the planet, and if every gun dissapeared tomorrow, that fact wouldn't change. It ain't about the guns, mate!

Terry in Australia · « **Reply #94 on:** May 28, 2007, 01:52:18 PM »

Geez they're coming out of the woodwork now, ha ha! Where have you been lately Noel, did they let you out early for good behavior? Ha ha, just kidding mate, put that gun away, you'll need that for when the government comes to take it from your cold dead fingers!

And Ed, while I appreciate that you think I'm clever, that was a "pisss-weak" response to some facts mate, what's wrong, can't you find a decent response in one of your NRA manuals? Or are you just back on your meds?

The whole point of my previous post is that while all Americans have the right to bear arms, at least 25% of civilians, due to mental illness, probably shouldn't be allowed anywhere near one, but more than likely own at least one, or like Richards psycho buddy, many guns hidden throughout his house.

I say civilians, as opposed to soldiers, cops etc, because these guys do have a legitimate requirement to "bear arms", and are psychologically evaluated on a regular basis, compared to civilians, who can just go out and buy one. I dunno about you guys, but to me, that's pretty scary........... Cheers, Terry.

edbikerii · « **Reply #95 on:** May 28, 2007, 02:15:29 PM »

Oh Terry, your posts are so boring. As soon as I see the first signs of BS, I stop reading. I've stepped in more interesting things that this.

Hey, where have I heard that before?

Quote from: Terry in Australia on May 28, 2007, 01:52:18 PM

Geez they're coming out of the woodwork now, ha ha! Where have you been lately Noel, did they let you out early for good behavior? Ha ha, just kidding mate, put that gun away, you'll need that for when the government comes to take it from your cold dead fingers!

And Ed, while I appreciate that you think I'm clever, that was a "pisss-weak" response to some facts mate, what's wrong, can't you find a decent response in one of your NRA manuals? Or are you just back on your meds?

The whole point of my previous post is that while all Americans have the right to bear arms, at least 25% of civilians, due to mental illness, probably shouldn't be allowed anywhere near one, but more than likely own at least one, or like Richards psycho buddy, many guns hidden throughout his house.

I say civilians, as opposed to soldiers, cops etc, because these guys do have a legitimate requirement to "bear arms", and are psychologically evaluated on a regular basis, compared to civilians, who can just go out and buy one. I dunno about you guys, but to me, that's pretty scary........... Cheers, Terry.

nickjtc · « **Reply #96 on:** May 28, 2007, 02:34:00 PM »

Alright, already. Enough of this, please. Let's talk about motorcycles.

I think we all know where we stand on this issue and I do not think that anyone is going to change their mind on the basis of the posts hereabouts. I, for one, would be happy to never see this discussion again.

GHOF, out.

Egil · « **Reply #97 on:** May 28, 2007, 03:44:20 PM »

Hello old forum friends

What talk about bike again folks

Terry in Australia · « **Reply #98 on:** May 28, 2007, 07:04:00 PM »

Quote from: edbikerii on May 28, 2007, 02:15:29 PM

Oh Terry, your posts are so boring. As soon as I see the first signs of BS, I stop reading. I've stepped in more interesting things that this.

Hey, where have I heard that before?

Well at least you're improving Ed, if you don't have a logical, original thought (which you're probably not capable of anyway) then at least copy one from someone who does! Cheers, Terry.

Noel · « **Reply #99 on:** May 28, 2007, 08:46:44 PM »

Good to "see" you again, Terry.

I have a handful of different hobbies; at the moment I'm wasting time on bicycles and guns. Just keeping an eye on this place. The gun argument always seems a little foreign to me, as I'm what's known as a "gamer": guns are essentially toys to me, like motorcycles and bicycles and what have you. I just shoot for fun and competition, and for me personally, associating guns with crime or overthrowing a tyrannical government is like associating a paring knife with the beheading of French royalty or something.

FWIW, anyone attempting to buy a gun in this country has to undergo a background check including mental history. It has to be a REAL mental history, though, like the docs are worried that the person is "a danger to himself or others". The Virginia Tech fellow slipped through the cracks, as his known mental history wasn't transmitted to the appropriate authorites.

Oh, and as for the 25% of Americans with diagnosable mental health problems? According to the list you linked us to, I'm one of them, as I've a terrible fear of heights.

News:

Author Topic: Why this Virginian will never accept Gun Control 37th Anniversary (Read 13275 times)

eldar

Rocking-M

eldar

eldar