Author Topic: I am at my wits end here. (Read 3885 times)

Terry L. · « **on:** May 07, 2007, 09:21:39 PM »

I Have a 79 CB650 and when I bought it 10 years ago and up until 2 years ago it ran great. It has about 90 thousand miles on it. (It’s my second vehicle) It started while running about 120klm hour on the highway. It just suddenly bogged down to the 2 out board cylinders. I had it towed home and started to try to trouble shoot it. I had the carbs cleaned out. And new plugs and wiring installed in it. But as soon as it get hot from riding it. it shuts down the same 2 cylinders again. I did more asking around and was told the Battery has to be good and the charging has to be 100% to fire all cylinders so bought a new battery and checked my voltage and it shows 14-15 volts at 3-4000 rpm. I checked both CDIs and they both work on the outside cylinders and will run when started. But as soon as I try only the right side coil it shuts down. If I let it sit for a while it will start to fire on all 4 again but for just a while and back to 2 it goes. I wondered if it could be that I have a Vetter and saddlebags and trunk with Hooligan light and running lights on the bags and trunk and it was robbing the engine of voltage. But when I disconnected all lights and ran it. I ran good for a while and then bogged down again when hot. Sometimes when it bogs down to 2 and I let off on the throttle and just coast it will back fire a little and try to start the other 2 cylinders and it does catch sometimes for a while. I have had the carbs off 4 times in the last year and cleaned them. Tomorrow I will check for good fits on the rubber mounts for the intake air and the mounts to the engine to make sure that there are no cracks or openings to let extra air into it but other then this I am at a loss. The dealers around here want between 3-500 to just check it out and its just a little bit too much just to check out a problem. I am hoping someone here has a few suggestions I may be able to try before I Have to sell one of my kids or kidneys to get it in a shop.

Thanks
Terry L.

Gordon · « **Reply #1 on:** May 07, 2007, 09:28:21 PM »

Have you switched the coils to see if the problem changes to the other two cylinders?

TwoTired · « **Reply #2 on:** May 07, 2007, 10:38:43 PM »

I'm guessing your CDI unit has a heat sensitive component or two. Got a spare to swap it out?

Cheers,

nickjtc · « **Reply #3 on:** May 08, 2007, 06:13:13 AM »

Sounds electronic. I agree with TwoTired.

dwain61 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 08, 2007, 07:20:50 AM »

I agree with these fine fellows. I wouldn't go diggin through your carbs again. This sounds electrical. I had a similar problem once and found that I had poor connections going from my plug wires to my plug caps. I took the caps off, clipped the wires for a fresh connection and put it back together and that eliminated the problem. I would say start working through your connections and if that doesn't work then look to swapping out parts. Remember, patience is a virtue. Don't try to rush things or you may overlook something obvious.

Terry L. · « **Reply #5 on:** May 08, 2007, 07:51:38 AM »

I am going to Pick up a few CDis and change them out . I did a cross check on the CDIs last week and they both work on the left coil but when (2 plugs worked) but when i tried both CDIs on the right coil Nothing, just shut down . Dealer wants over $100 each for the coils and i haven't even priced the CDIs yet

. Is there a chance that the coil is heat sensitive? and when everything is running hot it will shut down?
Today i am going to concentrate on the carb and see if it is running lean or rich. Plus change out the spark plug caps and see if that gets me anywere. I have been looking at my wife's 83 650 Nighthawk and Thinking of temporarily borrowing a few parts off it to use on mine , but If i am ever to sleep in the same house again with her ( or bed) i have ditch that idea

.
If you read my bio. then you know i picked up a 1100 goldwing this week , I was going to make this my winter keep busy project but i may put the new engine in it and put it on the road this year ,just so i can ride a bike. I would rather ride the 650 for the rest of the year
Thank you for the fast replays
Terry L.

c_kyle · « **Reply #6 on:** May 08, 2007, 08:13:53 AM »

I can't really help, but post some pics of that '79 650.

Terry L. · « **Reply #7 on:** May 08, 2007, 08:39:09 AM »

Ok I will take some today and post them.
Terry L.

TwoTired · « **Reply #8 on:** May 08, 2007, 08:47:22 AM »

Quote from: Terry L. on May 08, 2007, 07:51:38 AM

Is there a chance that the coil is heat sensitive? and when everything is running hot it will shut down?

Yes, it is *possible*.
You have two coils, right? Can you temporarily swap them to see if the problem follows the coils or the CDI?

This is one reason why I have so many "spare" bikes. Parts borrowing!

Cheers,

Terry L. · « **Reply #9 on:** May 08, 2007, 09:16:12 AM »

I will swap the coils out right now and see if it does it . I just put the tank back on a few min. ago and i now have heat on 3 of the exaust pipes and am about to change the plug and cap again to see if i can get it to fire. I will try anything once ... (that could be why i have been married 3 times )

. I needed a hobby.
Terry L.

Dave L · « **Reply #10 on:** May 08, 2007, 10:53:44 AM »

Hi
I assume you have fuel in these two carbs so there are a few things you could try

As has been suggested swap the coils .
You could try some freezer spray (this can be purchased from good radio shack stores RS components etc) or diy pipe freezer spray or
possably gum remover spray but make sure its not a fire risk first , this could be used on the trigger sensor and the other parts to see
if its a heat issue.
The coil pack can also be tested with a meter to check the resistance on the in side and output side ,they should be the same for both coils
with the wires disconnected and the ign key in the off poss.
With regard to the trigger sensors most i think work on the magnetic effect of the disk passing in front of them to to trigger the cdi unit
make sure the gap is the same for both , again its possable i would have thought to trigger the sensor with a small magnet with the ign on
and see if you get a spark across the spark plug .

LAST , DO TAKE CARE AS THERE ARE HIGH VOLTAGES PRODUCED ON THE OUTPUT SIDE BOTH FROM THE CDI MODULE AND COIL MAKE
SURE YOU ARE NOT AT RISK BOTH FROM ELECTRIC SHOCK AND FIRE.

Last if its any help the coil pack does seem to be the most common thing to fail on the some modern sports bikes judging by other webb sites
i visit for my Kawasaki gt550 four .

I hope this is of some small help .
Dave

Terry L. · « **Reply #11 on:** May 08, 2007, 11:42:38 AM »

She is all together again (minus the faring side panels that cover the engine) and firing on all 4 (after the coil X ) It is still a little cooler on the #3 but it is hot to the touch. My wife is a electrician ,so i will get her out to it tonight and see if she can check the current ( she is use to getting shocks lol) I am about to take her out to the highway and see what happens . Let you know later .
Thanks again for the help.

clarkjh · « **Reply #12 on:** May 08, 2007, 02:17:31 PM »

Hope you find the problem. I had a 5hp go-cart that would shut down when hot. I had a bad coil, it ran great when cold, but would quit when warm. Some sort of thermal break down in the windings.

James

Terry L. · « **Reply #13 on:** May 08, 2007, 03:35:00 PM »

I just posted 2 pics. of the old girl in the Gallery. The seat is a Windsor saddle that i picked up a few years ago for $20. best investment i ever did for my Bum.

.
I just finished a run to rest the bike out. it bogged down about 3 times but came back with in a few moments. This time i never went easy on it i cranked it every gear and as much as i did not red line it ( it is a old bike and i cant afford a new engine for it ) I figured if I did this it would heat up a LOT and cut out faster (would a heat shield protect the coils from the heat?). there was heat on all 4 pipes after finishing and i am hoping that it will do better tomorrow.
something i noticed today was that the contacts on the thing (

) that the Fused pos+ wire comes off to the battery was caked solid inside and out with crud from were my old battery was leaking bad last year . I cleaned it up with Brake cleaner and sanded (lightly ) all the leads again. does this have anything to do with spark?
I can get a few used coils from a friend in a few days and try that .

I have a few questions that I hope you can answer (I do hate being a pest ) and they are answered some were on the site But with over 500 posts here I will need new glassed just to complet half of them

. If you can just point me in the right direction to the post for the answers it would be great.

were is the nut for adjusting the timing chain located and
# 2 to adjust the carbs are the adjusters located under the top of the carbs (i like the drill bit methid someone posted here. )

I am starting to feel like a real puts asking so many questions .
who ever started this site should get a Hug or a handshake .

Terry L.

Jay B · « **Reply #14 on:** May 08, 2007, 04:09:01 PM »

I would imagine the triggers are Hall Effect Sensors. HES's are famous for doing the cutting out when hot thing.

Terry L. · « **Reply #15 on:** May 09, 2007, 04:17:52 PM »

I took the bike out today for a good run and after about 30 min. it cut down to the outside cylinders again and would not go back to 4, I was taking it back home again when I noticed the left blinker on the Faring was not working (light blown?). But I forgot to turn it off and the light on the Handlebars (console) stayed solid lit, when I left a stop sign and my rpm went up to try to get some speed out of it the light started to blink slowly. I reached down and pulled the harness off the faring and the 2 shutdown cylinders kicked back in, in about 30 seconds. When I pulled over and watched the rpm when I connected the socket again the rpm dropped down noticeably, taking it out the rpm went back up. The faring is an add-on. And has bigger lights (running and headlight) I think the headlight is a halogen and with the saddles have more running lights. Could this be the problem? And if it is can I get a power booster, or get rid of all the lights? Any suggestions

Terry L

flatblack · « **Reply #16 on:** May 09, 2007, 06:04:48 PM »

Put the battery on a trickle charger overnight. Leave the lights disconnected.

Tomorrow, ride it. If it runs well, you've found the problem.

These bikes' electrical systems are pretty marginal to begin with.

HTH...

fb

clarkjh · « **Reply #17 on:** May 09, 2007, 06:05:16 PM »

If you want to keep the lights, you could have the stator rewound.

James

ic455 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 09, 2007, 06:39:54 PM »

This might help:
http://www.jaycobattery.com/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=176

Ordered one last week, should get it soon. In theory, it should have more power available for lights, aftermarket ignition, etc. as well as being a sealed, maintenance-free battery.

ic455 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 09, 2007, 06:41:06 PM »

More info here:
http://www.batteryprice.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=946

Terry L. · « **Reply #20 on:** May 10, 2007, 09:10:41 PM »

I put a new Interstate Batteries (Cycle-Tron) into it first thing this season and it’s a little larger then the old one, while maintaining the same voltage (12) and amps (12).
I disconnected the headlight this morning and the rpm went up some. And charged the battery to full before taking her out to the highway. It ran good for about 45 min. and bogged down to 2 cylinders so I got off the highway and started home slowly on the side road. But in about 5-8 min while running she kicked in again and ran ok the rest of the way with a scattered backfire (small ones). I used the camshaft chain adjustment (thanks to your site) with great results. I can’t hear the chain at all now and before it was loud even on the highway. I haven’t tried it yet (I will tomorrow) can this make a difference to the running of the engine besides the noise?
While I had the side plate off turning the engine over I did notice that the brushes are in good shape and still have a lot of in and out travel left to them.
If the problem is the generator can I spray electrical contact cleaner in and around it to may-be improve it?
The frustration level is steadily rising and the 80-GL1100 Goldwing I will be getting this Saturday is looking more and more like a now project then a winter one.
Thanks again for the help.
Terry L.

TwoTired · « **Reply #21 on:** May 10, 2007, 10:12:58 PM »

It's certainly beginning to sound like the problem is voltage related. Do you have any tools (multimeter) to investigate this theory?

If so, measure the voltage when the the problem occurs, and measure again when the problem subsides.

It might be that you have too much load on the system, and when the battery depletes because your charging system can't keep up, you begin losing spark.

Cheers,

Terry L. · « **Reply #22 on:** May 11, 2007, 07:12:31 AM »

My wife is a electrician so i will get her meter today and Find a post here that has the voltage and wattage of the bike to see were i stand on it . I think i will bench the carbs to sinc them (the drill bit method) I don't believe they have ever been touched. I will be calling around as well for new generators and re-winding prices as well. It is sounding more like electrical . it is putting out 14-15 volts at 4-5000 rpm. as you can see by the picture the 650 is carring a lot of extra weight with all the gear hanging off it . over the winter i will be selling the wind jammer Faring and saddles and trunk and just making her over like when she was first built.
Terry L.

Terry L. · « **Reply #23 on:** May 17, 2007, 11:30:43 AM »

would it be safe to spray electrical contact cleaner in and around the generator?

TwoTired · « **Reply #24 on:** May 17, 2007, 02:10:16 PM »

Only if it says on the label it is safe for plastics/paint.

Cheers.

Terry L. · « **Reply #25 on:** May 19, 2007, 07:25:25 AM »

Figured out a few tricks to run decent. first is to sisconnect the head light. (keeping the running lights and blinkers working) and it runs good and does not bog down to two cylinders . and second is to keep the rpm up over 3500-4000 and it shows a voltage of 14 out put. The headlight is 50W Low beam and 60W high Beam. If i ride it in the evening or night i will have to re-connect the head light. After a days riding the Battery is showing 12V this way. Fortunately i live out side the City so i have lots of roads to run at decent speed and over 5000 rpm.
This does not mean a generator re-build is not needed. Just may last until i get the money together to get a new one or until i head to Singapore or China next month and put it to bed until the fall.
If i go to my wife for more money to buy one now . (after getting the 80-GL1100 GoldWing last week and the new Re-built engine for it) She will give me the evil eye .

Terry L.

News: