Author Topic: Timing Marks Don't line up?  (Read 5925 times)

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Offline gregk

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Timing Marks Don't line up?
« on: May 13, 2007, 01:20:38 PM »


i have recently got a  77-400F on the road.  It appeared to run well in the shop but when I was finally able to take the bike on the road, It pulls like there is an anchor out back.  I checked the valve lash and the point gap but no better.  I finally bought a timing light and it appears that the timing lines up approximately  with the "T" mark. When the rpm's are raised, the "F" mark sort of lines up!  Nowhere near the two index marks for the advance.  I tried the 2-3 plugs with the same results.  There does not appear to be enough adjustment in the backing  plate.  Is there a back and front to the breaker plate?  maybe its on backwards!  I have also taken the advance mechanism off and it appears to be free.  I did notice when I was checking the timing that the points are arching to the backing plate at times.  The manual speaks of making sure that the wires and insulators must be installed correctly.  I've checked all my reference books but no details or where the insulator is positioned on the points.
Any thoughts?

Greg
I don't want it to go like a motorcycle, I want it to go like a rocket!

Offline roadkill savior

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2007, 01:59:15 PM »
Not to steal your post, just piggy backing on in hopes someone can get to the bottom of this for us.  My dyna S is doing the same thing. Mine is ahead of the "F" at idle and before the 2 lines at high speed. I took the advance mechanism off and it doesn't seem to be anything wrong with mine either. When I ride, the spark is good at idle then becomes erratic until I hit wide open throttle then the bike "grabs" and accelerates like nobody's business.

I was looking through my parts and found another advance mechanism that says 323 (next to the rotation arrow) The one in my bike says 300? What does your say? And what is right?

Offline gregk

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2007, 02:09:17 PM »


Looks like mine has 333 stamped on the advance.

Greg
I don't want it to go like a motorcycle, I want it to go like a rocket!

Offline brandon

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2007, 08:45:13 PM »
I'm sure this post will not be the end all to your problems, but perhaps open another train of thought on something to possibly consider. I've recently been toying around with the timing, point gap, A/F ratios and plug heat range on my bike with interesting results.

Today I spent about four hours with a timing light to see what configurations did what and how the results were. Perplexed, frustrated, awed and the like, it was an interesting day.

From what I understand, and this is on my 400, you first must check the tappet clearance. Then you check the point clearances (which is horribly delicate IMO). After these two things, you can start medling with the timing. Say all that stuff is good.

First you want to take your timing light and put it on either the #1 or #4 spark plug wire. Set your idle to 1100RPM (it must be a stable idle) then check to see if the F mark lines up with the static line with the light. Remember there is a slight delay between the firing and timing of the engine. Adjust the timing as necessary. After this, you put the timing light on either #2 or #3 wire and check the timing of this. You adjust the plate as necessary and tighten down the three retaining screws.

Once this is done, stand up and grab the throttle and twist it to 2500RPM. Bend back down while trying to hold the throttle open at 2500RPM and recheck the timing on #2 and #3 to see if everything still lines up. The F line should still line up.

On my bike, the timing is set so that the static line on the crank case is just to the right side of the left most line on the plate. I'd say 1mm to the right of it.

Hope this helps. Good luck. I know it can be a PITA for sure. I hope I didn't leave anything out.

Offline jensk

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2007, 11:01:21 PM »
On both CB550's (76 and 77) I am fidling with I have had the same problem. In both cases the solution was to adjust the points gap with the timing light on. Even very small differences in points gap have major effect on the overall timing of the ignition. Thus if you run out of timing adjustment in the overall ignition adjustment you can get it back by setting the points a little closer.

This allso have the effect that the dwell time rises a bit thus leading to better coil charge time at high rpms.

/jk
'77 CB550K Technical rebuild done and riding. Cosmetics must wait till winter
'78 CB550K3 beautifull but engine needs rebuild.

Offline svenD

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2007, 12:43:41 AM »
HI GREG.
 I FIND THAT THE TIMING IS LESS DIFFICULT TO SET IF THE POINTS ARE ORIGINAL HONDA.HAVE GOOD DRIVING.
                                                                                                                                                         svenD

Offline cadler

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2007, 03:42:32 AM »
you should not get the arching to ground, did you replace the condenser?

Offline gregk

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2007, 06:47:24 AM »


I experienced the same variation in timing when alternatey setting the timing then resetting the points gap.  The timing marks would never be consistent!  Move the breaker plate from one limit to the other and only made a slight difference to the timing marks.  When the rpm's are increased, the timing marks don't even reach the "F" mark! 
The aching of the points does not happen all the time but I have noticed (in my dark garage) that both sets will arch once and a while. 
I assume that this condition with the points may be blamed on the condensers.
Anyway its driving me nuts, and its a short trip!

Greg
I don't want it to go like a motorcycle, I want it to go like a rocket!

Offline ttr400

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2007, 08:46:07 AM »
The F mark must only line up at idle, when you increase the revs the timing must advance to the 2 lines.

The 333 code is the CB350F same for the CB400F, 323 I think is the CB500 four and the 300 is the CB750.  The maximum advance for the CB350/400F is 23.5deg to 26.5deg, I think it's the same for the CB500four. The CB750 has a higher max advance.

Just remember stock ignition timing is not necessarily the best setting. Modified motor, altitude, compresion, type of fuel used, will determine what to run.

Kevin
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Offline gregk

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2007, 09:47:03 AM »


Just put the whole acvance unit and breaker plate together again, with the same results.  When advanced, the "F" mark just about liines up.  At an idle, the marks are to the left of the "T" mark?
Like i said, this is driving me nuts.

Greg
I don't want it to go like a motorcycle, I want it to go like a rocket!

Offline mlinder

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2007, 10:04:20 AM »


Just put the whole acvance unit and breaker plate together again, with the same results.  When advanced, the "F" mark just about liines up.  At an idle, the marks are to the left of the "T" mark?
Like i said, this is driving me nuts.

Greg

F Mark at idle. Advance lines when advanced.
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Offline Bodi

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2007, 10:17:11 AM »
The 400 should have a 333 (350-4) or 377 (400F) timing plate. I don't know if the 323 (CB500-4) or 300 (750-4) will work, maybe they're fine. The total advance and the advance RPM may be different. Possibly the angle of the points cam to the crank key as well - that would make the timing marks not attainable within the points plate's range of rotation... I just doubt that Honda would do that.
I don't understand how the ignition timing doesn't change when the points plate is turned... that makes no sense. The timing mark on the advance plate should "move" under the timing light exactly the amount the plate rotates.
Adjusting the plate moves the timing pointer. Adjusting the points gap moves the timing pointer. You have to set the gap and then the plate, or set a dwell angle with a dwell meter - adjusting the gap to do so - and then set the plate.
If the plate is sloppy in the engine cases, it's bloody hard to do timing because the plate will shift side to side as you try to turn it, altering the gaps - and timing - considerably. I have used a centrepunch on the plate near the outer edge where the plate meets the positioning "ears" (?) on the case, making the plate a bit bigger until it fits snugly as it turns.
The piggyback plate only allows a small adjustment of the 2-3 timing so you sometimes need to set a "wrong" gap to get the timing right.
Generally you should set the timing at the mark for full advance (~3000 RPM) and let the F timing be whatever that gives you. The ignition will be fully advanced during almost all actual riding and too much advance at high RPM can burn holes in your pistons.
I'm not sure what sparking to the plate means, this definitely should not happen. Sparking across the points tells you the condensor is bad, sparking to the plate suggests that the insulation is bad or there's conductive dirt on there somehow.

Offline Hope

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2007, 10:58:44 AM »
The F mark must only line up at idle, when you increase the revs the timing must advance to the 2 lines.

The 333 code is the CB350F same for the CB400F, 323 I think is the CB500 four and the 300 is the CB750.  The maximum advance for the CB350/400F is 23.5deg to 26.5deg, I think it's the same for the CB500four. The CB750 has a higher max advance.

Just remember stock ignition timing is not necessarily the best setting. Modified motor, altitude, compresion, type of fuel used, will determine what to run.

Kevin

The 550 also has the 323

I just set my Dyna S, and it does not return back to the exact mark...  but it runs fine.

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2007, 11:04:03 AM »

Generally you should set the timing at the mark for full advance (~3000 RPM) and let the F timing be whatever that gives you.


Same issue here - so should a slightly lumpier idle be expected?

Offline gregk

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2007, 12:46:00 PM »


I just got back from the wreckers with another advance unit and breaker plate.  The parts come off a 75 400F but appear to be similiar except for the advance unit.  Both have 333 on them.  Anyways, the bike does not run any different.  Still can't get the timing to work.  Must be something else? 
Any ideas? 
How does the valve lash effect the timing?  What would happen if I set the valves on the exhaust stroke?  Would the bike run?

Greg
I don't want it to go like a motorcycle, I want it to go like a rocket!

Offline mlinder

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2007, 01:15:50 PM »
If the points are very worn, timing is impossible.. but...
Can you break down what you are doing to time these from beginning to finish?
No.


Offline gregk

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2007, 01:37:52 PM »


Minder

I started by setting the valve lash.  It seemed to be close.  I then tried to set the timing as the bike runs terrible when there is a load.  I tried setting the timing by static method but got no where.  Got mad and justified going out and buy a cheap timing light.  Tried the timing light and none of the marks liine up.  By moving the breaker plate from one extreme to the other I get very little difference in the timing position as indicated by the light.  When I increase the RPM to see if the timing mark lines up with the full advance marks, I can just see them to the right of the timing window.  The timing mark never reaches the full advance marks, but is to the right of the "F" mark.  Don't know where to go now.

Greg
I don't want it to go like a motorcycle, I want it to go like a rocket!

Offline mlinder

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2007, 01:46:30 PM »
Just so we have this straight, what is your notch pointing to when static timed? What mark?
No.


Offline gregk

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2007, 03:07:33 PM »


i set the "F" 1.4" mark on the ignition advance rotor to align with the timing index mark.
I don't want it to go like a motorcycle, I want it to go like a rocket!

Offline gregk

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2007, 11:52:07 AM »


New day, new approach.  I set the point gap at 0.3mm and tried it again.  Now I can get the 1.4 to line up but the 2.3 only line up with the "T" mark.
Methinks that I will try a new set of points and condenser.  What have I got to loose?


Greg
I don't want it to go like a motorcycle, I want it to go like a rocket!

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2007, 12:16:52 PM »
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline Bodi

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2007, 02:19:16 PM »
The valve lash and cam timing do not affect the ignition timing in any way, they are completely separate adjustments.

Offline gregk

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2007, 03:48:31 PM »


i read TT's commeents on the breaker plate shim.  Makes sense when you look at the plate and the spring force from the points. 
Still after who knows how many years, the spring tension on the points must decrease, which may cause the points to bounce.

Greg
I don't want it to go like a motorcycle, I want it to go like a rocket!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2007, 04:04:26 PM »
Unlikely point bounce is an issue below 7000 RPM even if they aren't 100% of new tension.

ANY spring tension from the points can move the lossened plate in the engine bosses, and this changes with the position of the points cam.  The shim stabilizes this movement, allowing you to accurately set points gap or dwell.  Then it maintains the gap/dwell setting while rotating the points plate.

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Offline gregk

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2007, 01:20:42 PM »


TT
Your suggestion that the points plate needed to be shimmed worked.  I now can get the timing close ( not exact) but the bike seems to run hard now. 

Greg
I don't want it to go like a motorcycle, I want it to go like a rocket!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Timing Marks Don't line up?
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2007, 02:06:14 PM »
Cool deal!

Happy riding ;D
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.