Topic: Transistorized igntion: results so far.

[HondaMan]

Several of you have asked questions about these units I'm making for SOHC-ers, so here's the answers (so I hopefully can spend less time typing and more time building them):

1. (Not asked, but I think important:) I'm donating $1 from each ignition back to SOHC4.us for its support. Kick in a buck or two yourselves if you don't buy one of these: we sure get our $$ worth here!
2. The gas mileage is better. Several have noted it, but I measured it with/without, and mine went from 37 MPG average per week to 41 MPG. I ride about 50/50 in stoplights and on 80+ MPH freeway.
3. It starts 'way better in the cold mornings (in Colorado, EVERY morning is cold at 6 AM!). Several others have noted the cold-bloodedness is better, too.
4. It idles much better in traffic.
5. It runs cooler. I measured my own cylinder head with an IR temperature gun with and without, after 30 minutes' run, and found it to be almost 15 degrees cooler. I suspect the more-even firing of the coils balances the heat better across the cylinders, because the #3 used to be hotter than the others, but not so much now.
6. It has a more noticeable power increase at 5500 RPM (my bike, no one else was this specific). It also pulls more smoothly in high gear at 80+ MPH speeds.
7. The plugs stay cleaner.

And, of course, the points last a loooong, loooong, time without tuneups.

So far, all of the ones I've built were for stock Honda coils. The next 15 units are capable of either stock or Dyna (or Accel) coils down to 2 ohms' primary resistance.

[750goes]

Tremendous work Hondaman,

Cannot wait to put mine to the test.....


thanks again     

[maksuttt]

Probably this question was asked before: can this unit work with Dyna S? Thanks.

[GammaFlat]

Probably this question was asked before: can this unit work with Dyna S? Thanks.

Great question.  Maybe you'd rather I was not the person to answer, but I'll make a run at it anyway (I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong ). 

Dyna-S has it's own pickup (magnetic I'm thinking) which is analogous to the points in Honda Man's hybrid ignition.  As a brief review... In a normal ignition setup, the points are the switch that turns off and on the charge to the coil (ironically enough, the spark gets generated when the field is collapsed - and the points opened)... "huh?!" you say - don't worry about it.   

In Honda Man's hybrid ignition, the points only act as a switch (with really minor load on the points so they last forever now) to control a "hardier" switch... solid state switch... transistor!  So.... his system uses the existing points setup to "control" his "electronic" switch.  One may wonder why you wouldn't replace the whole mess with electronics.  Really good thought and the Dyna-S does just that with a pick-up mounted about where your points used to be. 

Note the statement "where your points used to be".  Well, your points get removed for the Dyna-S.  In HM's setup, you can switch back to a full "old style" points setup in a matter of seconds (depending on implemenation)... while on the road... with no tools necessary. 

Yes, the Dyna-S is nice but there are 2 major drawbacks in my view.  One is cost - they're about $125 as opposed to roughly half that for the HondaMan setup.  The other drawback is that you are completely reliant on solid state.  What does that mean?  If if fails, you're walking until you get a replacement... sorta specialized (read: can't get too quick) unit.  Honda Man's setup is the flip of a a switch to go back to "old style" points (depending on how it's implemented) and you are running.   

Disclosure: I have a Dyna-S on a K6.  I might be selling my Dyna-S at some point to "go back" to points and "hybrid EI". 

The answer to the quoted question.... Nope, won't work with Dyna-S because the Dyna-S requires that you remove the points which are required by Honda Man's system. 

Anyone: If I've got anything wrong, please correct me. 

[HondaMan]

Maybe I should hire GammaFlat as an ad man? 

[edbikerii]

I don't know why anyone would wish to trigger the Hondaman EI with a Dyna-S, but I don't see why one couldn't.  Dyna-S just basically replaces the mechanical points switching mechanism with a solid state unit.  In fact, installation should be nearly identical.

Also, if the points should fail for any reason, it will disable the Hondaman EI.  Same is true for the Dyna-S.

Have I overlooked something?

[Gordon]

Also, if the points should fail for any reason, it will disable the Hondaman EI.  Same is true for the Dyna-S.

Have I overlooked something?

I think the point Gamma was trying to make is that if Hondaman's ignition fails for any reason, you still have the option of flipping a switch and reverting to the stock ignition.  An option which you don't have with the Dyna, which is a valid point, but I'm not particularly worried about the Dyna-s in my 750 crapping out on a whim either.  I also have no reason to believe Hondaman's ignition wouldn't perform flawlessly.

[edbikerii]

I certainly don't see any problem with Hondaman's ignition, either.  I was just stating that I think you could, if desired, use Dyna-S to trigger it just like points.  Then you could use the same switch to go back to just Dyna-S if you so desired.

After using a Dyna-S for more than 10 years without a failure (knock on wood), I'm convinced that it is at least as reliable as points, even if the voltage across the points is greatly reduced.

Is there any reason that I'm unaware of that you could not trigger Hondaman's EI with a Dyna-S?

Also, if the points should fail for any reason, it will disable the Hondaman EI.  Same is true for the Dyna-S.

Have I overlooked something?

I think the point Gamma was trying to make is that if Hondaman's ignition fails for any reason, you still have the option of flipping a switch and reverting to the stock ignition.  An option which you don't have with the Dyna, which is a valid point, but I'm not particularly worried about the Dyna-s in my 750 crapping out on a whim either.  I also have no reason to believe Hondaman's ignition wouldn't perform flawlessly.

[Gordon]

Is there any reason that I'm unaware of that you could not trigger Hondaman's EI with a Dyna-S?

I guess not, but it would seem like overkill.  Still sounds like something I would do just because I could!

[edbikerii]

Well, I got to thinking that you could use the Dyna-S to trigger something like an MSD or Crane box.  Feasible?

Is there any reason that I'm unaware of that you could not trigger Hondaman's EI with a Dyna-S?

I guess not, but it would seem like overkill.  Still sounds like something I would do just because I could!

[GammaFlat]

I don't know why anyone would wish to trigger the Hondaman EI with a Dyna-S, but I don't see why one couldn't.  Dyna-S just basically replaces the mechanical points switching mechanism with a solid state unit.  In fact, installation should be nearly identical.

Also, if the points should fail for any reason, it will disable the Hondaman EI.  Same is true for the Dyna-S.

Have I overlooked something?

I'm thinking it would be pretty much "point-less" to run Dyna-S with the HondaMan EI.   

Seriously for a moment, I believe you're correct - you could drive HondaMan EI with the Dyna-S, but the play on words works well as you point out.... It's hard to justify using both simultaneously because now it's just extra money for extra components that are not necessary, albeit without points (sort of - read on). 

....to your second point, er.. um.. statement: The points failing will cause HondaMan's EI to fail but that doesn't necessarily make it less reliable than the Dyna-S (again, read on, Dyna-S has it's own similar issues).  The Dyna-S replaces the points and has some pickup mechanism integrated into the plate you mount right where the "point-plate" used to be (now you have me wanting to take my cover off to look), so the Dyna-S has it's own technology (if you will) of triggering the whole thing.  The Dyna-S triggering mechanism and the original points are now similar in their intended purpose...  but I'd guess that the points are in the same reliability "zone" since they're seriously over-rated for what they do in their new life (trigger the "HEI") and would probably last as long as the bike.  Can someone confirm what the Dyna-S is doing for it's triggering, i.e.: induction, magnetic switch, smoke and mirrors? 

...and I agree as well that Dyna-S is very reliable in a general sense (another post). 

I have to thank the guys commenting and asking questions (and HondaMan of course) for "tuning up" my understanding of ignitions.  For us folks that aren't too handy with an oscilloscope, we can glean valuable lessons from these discussions and maybe even make our bikes run better    I mean, who would have thunk that turning the charge to the coil OFF (thereby collapsing it's field) would induce the coil to make a spark?

[Egil]

http://images.google.no/imgres?imgurl=http://www.thefang.co.uk/images/newtronic_1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thefang.co.uk/electronic_ignition.htm&h=194&w=300&sz=19&hl=no&start=13&tbnid=qGjKqaTAoxVmFM:&tbnh=75&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3DNewtronic%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dno%26sa%3DG

Have any of you try  Newtronic ignition

[bryanj]

Nemtonics used to bea different name that i cant remember

[edbikerii]

I had my points cover off yesterday to adjust my tappets.  The Dyna-S pickups have no moving parts.  I believe they are magnetically switched or "hall effect" pickups.

[KB02]

Magnetic switch to activate the spark.

[Egil]

The was a electronic ignition named Piranha that changes to Newtronic

If this is the same Newtronic   

[HondaMan]

Can someone confirm what the Dyna-S is doing for it's triggering, i.e.: induction, magnetic switch, smoke and mirrors? 

The last Dyna-S I looked at was a pair of PNP-type Hall-effect switches, rated at 4 amps at 200 degrees F. This means they are always "on" until the magnet in their points-cam add-on part swings by the device, switching it off for a few milliseconds. This "off time" is adequate for operations below approximately 7000 RPM on these bikes, after which the spark time is a bit short, thus reducing the hi-RPM spark output. Most riders don't notice this, though.
To solve this problem, the Dyna III was introduced. This unit has a longer "off" time after the trigger, much closer to the original points setup. They also added extra current capacity so users could run the "green coils" and make higher spark voltages in the 8000 RPM or less range. Racers liked these, but roadracers did not, because the spark droop at 9000 RPM put them into approximately the same performance as with Honda's stock coils with points, just less points bounce, which didn't seem worth the expense. (I measured all this voltage stuff last winter, that's why I know the inner workings now -- I just knew the roadracer's dislike part from years past.)

Personally, I like the Dyna-S for touring and all-around riding because it is pretty reliable: I've only known a few to fail. But, I have seen quite a few Dyan III units die, including my own. Hence, my design...   

[edbikerii]

Now you've got me curious, how does the points setup manage to have the longer "off" time after the trigger?  Isn't it always exactly the same number of degrees of rotation, which would mean much shorter at higher RPM?  Are we talking about the measurement known as dwell?

The last Dyna-S I looked at was a pair of PNP-type Hall-effect switches, rated at 4 amps at 200 degrees F. This means they are always "on" until the magnet in their points-cam add-on part swings by the device, switching it off for a few milliseconds. This "off time" is adequate for operations below approximately 7000 RPM on these bikes, after which the spark time is a bit short, thus reducing the hi-RPM spark output. Most riders don't notice this, though.
To solve this problem, the Dyna III was introduced. This unit has a longer "off" time after the trigger, much closer to the original points setup. They also added extra current capacity so users could run the "green coils" and make higher spark voltages in the 8000 RPM or less range. Racers liked these, but roadracers did not, because the spark droop at 9000 RPM put them into approximately the same performance as with Honda's stock coils with points, just less points bounce, which didn't seem worth the expense. (I measured all this voltage stuff last winter, that's why I know the inner workings now -- I just knew the roadracer's dislike part from years past.)

Personally, I like the Dyna-S for touring and all-around riding because it is pretty reliable: I've only known a few to fail. But, I have seen quite a few Dyan III units die, including my own. Hence, my design...   

[loonymoon]

ok, I'm a complete and utter newbie to this discussion but I was thinking of switching to an electronic ignition system as my bike (350F)  gets through points at a fair pace and they're not too cheap to replace. SteveD suggested the Dyna S. But could I just use Hondamans system? Is it easy to install and how do I get hold of one for how much? (I'm in the UK btw.)

Cheers!!

[HondaMan]

Now you've got me curious, how does the points setup manage to have the longer "off" time after the trigger?  Isn't it always exactly the same number of degrees of rotation, which would mean much shorter at higher RPM?  Are we talking about the measurement known as dwell?

The "off" time in the Dyna S is controlled by the diameter of the little magnets that pass by the Hall Effect switch. This time is small at higher RPM: the magnet is only about 1/4" across the face, which is the "dwell" for the "off" time. The dwell of the Honda cam is almost 180 mechanical degrees (I think it's closer to 160 mechanical crank degrees), or 1/2 turn. Longer dwell is useful at higher engine speeds because it allows more saturation time for the coil, but if the "off" time is too short, the coil starts getting charged again before it fully breaks down the magnetic field, following the spark jump. This causes a slower rate of charge ("rise time") for the next inrush of current, and the overall spark voltage starts to droop. Honda's design is almost 50/50 charge/discharge, which really helps flatten out the "high spots" in the circuits's 'Q', or resonance, because the charge is almost always fully dissipated magnetically before the next one starts. However, the stock coils have a short discharge time, so at low RPM they tend to heat more, reducing their efficiency.

It's a balancing act for designers....   

[HondaMan]

ok, I'm a complete and utter newbie to this discussion but I was thinking of switching to an electronic ignition system as my bike (350F)  gets through points at a fair pace and they're not too cheap to replace. SteveD suggested the Dyna S. But could I just use Hondamans system? Is it easy to install and how do I get hold of one for how much? (I'm in the UK btw.)

Cheers!!

Sure, it will run the 350F, CB, CL, SL...and many others.
I have several other UK-ers who are interested: I have to get the list together so maybe we can do one shipment and you can all save shipping somehow. PM me your name/address and I'll put you on the "UK list". 

[edbikerii]

So you're saying that the dwell on the stock points is nearly 180', but it doesn't have a negative impact because the 'other' 180' are adequate for building up the magnetic field for the next spark, even at high RPM?  Also, the long dwell allows the existing magnetic field to fully discharge into the spark plug.

So, I'm inferring that even if full discharge only requires say 10' of rotation, it does no harm to alllow the field to discharge for longer?

Now you've got me curious, how does the points setup manage to have the longer "off" time after the trigger?  Isn't it always exactly the same number of degrees of rotation, which would mean much shorter at higher RPM?  Are we talking about the measurement known as dwell?

The "off" time in the Dyna S is controlled by the diameter of the little magnets that pass by the Hall Effect switch. This time is small at higher RPM: the magnet is only about 1/4" across the face, which is the "dwell" for the "off" time. The dwell of the Honda cam is almost 180 mechanical degrees (I think it's closer to 160 mechanical crank degrees), or 1/2 turn. Longer dwell is useful at higher engine speeds because it allows more saturation time for the coil, but if the "off" time is too short, the coil starts getting charged again before it fully breaks down the magnetic field, following the spark jump. This causes a slower rate of charge ("rise time") for the next inrush of current, and the overall spark voltage starts to droop. Honda's design is almost 50/50 charge/discharge, which really helps flatten out the "high spots" in the circuits's 'Q', or resonance, because the charge is almost always fully dissipated magnetically before the next one starts. However, the stock coils have a short discharge time, so at low RPM they tend to heat more, reducing their efficiency.

It's a balancing act for designers....   

[hcritz]

Hey Mark...
Testing is still going well...Had a carb issue last week...# 3 idle jet plugged....so went ahead and did a full tune-up.
Cleaned the carbs etc.  How DOES that crud find it's way to the carbs...I got the filter sock and an in line filter, the tank is clean and I still get some fine silt in the bottome of the carb bowls???
I Let the bike idle for quite a while doing the sync on the carbs and getting the mixtures right...just had a box fan on the engine...the Ignition box got QUITE warm...almost too hot to touch.
Bike is still running great...I seem to get better performance all through the RPM range really...Low speed is the most noticeable, but as you say...after about 5000 it really comes on well too.
I've got about 1400 miles on it now...you want another 600 or so before I send it back???
Went by the Barber Museum yesterday to see my buddies there...the California superbike school was there...lots of screaming scoots on the track!

[dusterdude]

Well, I got to thinking that you could use the Dyna-S to trigger something like an MSD or Crane box.  Feasible?

Is there any reason that I'm unaware of that you could not trigger Hondaman's EI with a Dyna-S?

I guess not, but it would seem like overkill.  Still sounds like something I would do just because I could!

yep

[HondaMan]

So you're saying that the dwell on the stock points is nearly 180', but it doesn't have a negative impact because the 'other' 180' are adequate for building up the magnetic field for the next spark, even at high RPM?  Also, the long dwell allows the existing magnetic field to fully discharge into the spark plug.

So, I'm inferring that even if full discharge only requires say 10' of rotation, it does no harm to alllow the field to discharge for longer?

Basically, that's true. Keep in mind that the amount of milliseconds of discharge time is not fixed, because the RPM is changing, but if the field is OFF long enough to fully discharge, then the next spark cycle will be stronger than if full discharge was not attained. When you use a dwell meter, it measures the ON time vs. the OFF time for the cycles at the RPM you have, and shows you the ratio. It doesn't show the milliseconds of time, though.

One of the "little" mistakes I have seen other electronic hobbyists (and a few engineers) do with this Kettering system is: they measure the spark discharge time with an oscilloscope, then use that number of milliseconds for their design parameter. Unfortunately, this does not take into account the fact that the magnetics are still busily collapsing for quite a while after the spark. This is the sore point for the older auto ignitions: they have to make those coils collapse very quickly, so the currents are very high and inductances low. That's why cars always have resistors of some sort in line with their coils: the heat that would otherwise generate at higher RPM will really cook the coil, from the inside out.

There are several ways to measure the magnetic collapse, which is the proper way to meet the coil's charge needs. In the case of the Honda coils, this time is about 0.003 second, and the spark discharge time is about 0.0015 second. The discharge time of the Dyna S trigger is about 0.0004 seconds at 8000 RPM, which is pretty short (0.0004/0.0015=27% of the full discharge time). This, in a nutshell, is why the spark droops quite a bit with the Dyna S units at high RPM. The Dyna III amplifier stretches that pulse out longer for better discharge.

Basically, Kettering systems were designed for engines that turned about 2700 RPM. It's a wonder that it can do the things it does!