Topic: Do you really want to be low?

[CBGBs]

The lower the center of gravity, the more stable the bike... less wind drag and less fatigue on twisters because you’re not hefting around as much.

I don't mean to pick on Andoo, but..

Lowering the bike doesn't make it more stable. That may work with your car but not on two wheels. Longer wheelbase might though.

The is no less drag on the rider when the bike is lowered. The bike may not be as tall but you haven't changed your height or your exposure to wind.

If your hefting the bike around, your not riding it correctly.

I think there are alot of people riding bikes that think they can engineer them better than the manufacturer, and end doing dumb things to their ride for all the wrong reasons.

If you want to lower your bike because you think its a cool style, then just say so, but there is no good reason other than your inseam to do it. Unless your a drag racer, but thats a flash race. It's over in 7 seconds.

Andoo, I do not want to pick a fight with you. I'm just using your words as an example.
Just expressing my opinion. Peace

[starion88esir]

Mike, love the Golf. My girl just bought on 02 GTI  1.8T. 1.5" drop springs and it rubs, need to get spacers for the wheels to keep from eating them up, after I replace the water pump and timing belt (damn VW for using inferior parts!)


Rocker, I can't adjust my camber and tuck the wheels still. Notice the amount of wheel being tucked? The crazy part, I can still go lower, I can set it flat on the ground, but I'd need to do some major surgery to the front to make it work up there. I can always lift it and straighten the camber out that way as well. It's funny sitting as high as a pickup in a little civic.

[ic455]

The lower the center of gravity, the more stable the bike... less wind drag and less fatigue on twisters because you’re not hefting around as much.

I don't mean to pick on Andoo, but..

Lowering the bike doesn't make it more stable. That may work with your car but not on two wheels. Longer wheelbase might though.

The is no less drag on the rider when the bike is lowered. The bike may not be as tall but you haven't changed your height or your exposure to wind.

If your hefting the bike around, your not riding it correctly.

I think there are alot of people riding bikes that think they can engineer them better than the manufacturer, and end doing dumb things to their ride for all the wrong reasons.

If you want to lower your bike because you think its a cool style, then just say so, but there is no good reason other than your inseam to do it. Unless your a drag racer, but thats a flash race. It's over in 7 seconds.

Andoo, I do not want to pick a fight with you. I'm just using your words as an example.
Just expressing my opinion. Peace

are you sure that lowering a bike doesn't help stability?  I ask because the 550K I parted out is now sitting without rear shocks and will practically stand up by itself.  Perhaps everyone was talking about stability at speed, so of that I have no idea, but my boss' Shadow and my co-worker's V-Star are both lower than my 750 and both more stable when attempting to push them around    I will say that the V-Star 1100 is much harder (for me) to ride as it is longer and heavier than my K6 and turns like a brick

[Geeto67]

I don't mean to pick on Andoo, but..

Lowering the bike doesn't make it more stable. That may work with your car but not on two wheels. Longer wheelbase might though.

um yes and no. If your definition of stable is less wheelie prone then yes it does. Lowering a bike does affect the trail of  a bike and depending on the angle of the bike can actually make it more stable in a straight line at high speed (it can also make it less stable as well). Generally what does make it more stable in a straight line is the lowered center of gravity, reducing the lever effect that weight can have on a bike.

The is no less drag on the rider when the bike is lowered. The bike may not be as tall but you haven't changed your height or your exposure to wind.

again this is not quite accurate. While the coefficient of drag has not changed substantially, by lowering the bike you have reduced the volume of air that can flow under it. So techincally while you are not reducing the drag of the bike, you can change the pattern of airflow and that can have similar effects to a reduction in drag (depending on the shape of the bodywork and other significant factors, it can also increase drag as well and create strange low and high pressure areas). Lowering does however change something else - it minimizes the frontal area that is being pushed through the air and thus changes the overall exposure of bike and rider to the wind - this is not a major amount but it is something that also exhibits the same characteristics as a reduction in drag, however slight. Thin about it like this: you are holding a barn doow upright in a 50 mph wind, suddenly 2 inches breaks off the top of the barn door and falls behind it, now you are not presenting as much surface area and it is slightly easier to hold that barn door upright. Same thing with a lowered bike, things that were once exposed to the airstream are now behind the fairing.

If your hefting the bike around, your not riding it correctly.

a matter of opinion on riding style, some bikes require to be heafted around. Harleys and Triumph Rocket 3's come to mind. The greater the mass on the bike the harder it is to change direction. Some of the heavier crusiers usually need some "encouragement" when being ridden spiritedly. The most important thing to fast riding is smoothness, and while hefting doesn't give you that impression,  it is possible to be smooth and forceful with a bike at the same time just not often. 

I think there are alot of people riding bikes that think they can engineer them better than the manufacturer, and end doing dumb things to their ride for all the wrong reasons.

 no argument here. Although some of those people go on to be Mickey Thompson, Paul Dunstall, Jessie James, etc... Of course some end up as grease spots as well

If you want to lower your bike because you think its a cool style, then just say so, but there is no good reason other than your inseam to do it. Unless your a drag racer, but thats a flash race. It's over in 7 seconds.

Andoo, I do not want to pick a fight with you. I'm just using your words as an example.
Just expressing my opinion. Peace

I see you are not a drag racing fan, and it is not over in 7 seconds for most of us (coming from the guy with an 11-12 second 500cc two stroke). Just because you don;t think there is a good reason doesn't mean there isn't one, you just don't see it. Once again you are just redefining words to suit your opinion - to many people looks alone are a good enough reason.  That being said there are all kinds of lowering tricks going on in road racing also that you obviously you don;t know anything about. For example if you spoke to any kawi triples road racer using a stock frame a majority of them will agree that lowering the front helps increase the handling by raking the bike forward and thus reducing the overall rake and trail. Moto Guzzi with their dustbin faring bikes sought to cheat the wind and lower the overall shape of the bike as much as possible to help reduce the lifting forces being generated by the wind passing under the bike.

[mikedialect]

Mike, love the Golf. My girl just bought on 02 GTI  1.8T. 1.5" drop springs and it rubs, need to get spacers for the wheels to keep from eating them up, after I replace the water pump and timing belt (damn VW for using inferior parts!)

The older series golf's were much better built, but I love all VW's. I've had 5. None of them died on me either. That 94 has just over 85k on it- a lucky find. I've pushed them up to just under 200K, but I've never had one newer than a 95- so I'm a little less familiar with the issues of the newer series. Trannie issues..?

I thought I'd never say it, but I was at a stop light today and I had a thought I never thought I would have.... I thought I wouldn't mind owning a honda 2 door coupe. I think having had 5 honda bikes in the last year has influenced me!

[CrisPDuk]

Just my two pence worth, lowering my 550K has definitely made the handling more to my taste, as has stiffening it up. It has long been acknowledged that the suspension of the 550 was designed moe with comfort in mind than speed, so if it's speed you are after, obviously there's room for improvement

As with anyhing in life it's about compromise, one person's sweet handling bike is another guy's boneshaker
As I've said before, if everybody liked the same thing we could all be riding K8's

As for not riding correctly if you're hefting a bike around, I'd love to see the result if you told Carl Fogarty or Troy Bayliss tht to their faces


PS: Whilst we're on the subject of VWs:

[CBGBs]

Thanks Geeto67, but I stand by my statement. That's just quibling.
When you lower the bike you've just cut the shape at the tire. It's probably 5% or less of the silouette. Tires don't make a big impression on wind resistance.

[Geeto67]

Thanks Geeto67, but I stand by my statement. That's just quibling.
When you lower the bike you've just cut the shape at the tire. It's probably 5% or less of the silouette. Tires don't make a big impression on wind resistance.

it is statements like above that show you are not thinking about aerodynamics in the right way. It is only quibbling to you because the conversation has fast approached the limit of your knowledge on aerodynamics.

Tires do make a large impression on wind resistance, as does rim type or anything else you are trying to push through the air. spoke rims are actually the least efficient because they act like giant fans slicing the wind, as do the treads in the tires, etc.  However lowering a bike doesn't just cover up the tire, it takes the forks out of the wind also and reduces the distance between the fender and the bottom of the fairing. If you think as this area as one large scoop then by shrinking you have decreased the volume of airflow that will travel through it and diverted it around (you have also increased its speed which creates other issues). Since that air normally becomes turbulent and creates different pressure situations when it hits the radiator, the front of the cylinder block, the fan, etc...you have made an dramatic effect on the aerodynamics of the bike, whether someone will feel that physically that is a different story. Drag is actually not a static number it is a number that increases the faster you go. A co-efficient of drag is really measuring how fast the rate of drag increases, if you reduce the rate at which it increases then you are in effect reducing how much resistance there is at a given speed. 

A couple of months back Hot Rod magazine did a story on wind testing different car hood scoops to find the ideal shape for bonneville, I think this would be a good read for you since it will help you understand that negative spaces have as much an impact on wind resistance as positive spaces do.

granted aerodynamic changes usually aren't felt in significant amounts until major speeds, it doesn't mean things aren't changing. at 50-60 mph you may not feel it physically but it may start to manifest itself in the form of reduction of fuel consumption, or a lesser propensity to be pushed over by cross winds.

ok, ive tried to break this down as simply as I could but here are some things you probably should read:

http://www.dynamicflight.com/aerodynamics/basics/

http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/falling.html

http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/cg.html

http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/drag1.html

http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/factord.html

[Cvillechopper]

I am completely convinced that, given enough free time, I could become more knowledgable on just about any subject than most professionals just by reading the articles, comments, suggested readings found in this forum, and general discussion.  The level of expertise represented from time to time is far above that of the average professional as that term is mostly a measure of job title, not experience. 
I have learned to make my welds MUCH better by reading posts here, have learned and lost more on electronics than I thought possible (still wouldn't argue with anyone here on the subject), and corrected many of my past misconceptions of things as simple as torque readings / application.
Kudos for the great reads Geet.  You got anything on lawn maintenance?  Mine's not taking off like it should.

[c_kyle]

VW guys, I'm sure you already are members, but join VWVortex.com.  CrisPDuk, that Euro GTI is sweet.

[summitlt]

You guys forgot the most important reason of lowering a bike!

It just looks cool!

[dusterdude]

chris,nice vw,gotta tell ya something tho,your steering wheel is on the wrong side.

[Andoo]

The lower the center of gravity, the more stable the bike... less wind drag and less fatigue on twisters because you’re not hefting around as much.

I don't mean to pick on Andoo, but..

Lowering the bike doesn't make it more stable. That may work with your car but not on two wheels. Longer wheelbase might though.

The is no less drag on the rider when the bike is lowered. The bike may not be as tall but you haven't changed your height or your exposure to wind.

If your hefting the bike around, your not riding it correctly.

I think there are alot of people riding bikes that think they can engineer them better than the manufacturer, and end doing dumb things to their ride for all the wrong reasons.

If you want to lower your bike because you think its a cool style, then just say so, but there is no good reason other than your inseam to do it. Unless your a drag racer, but thats a flash race. It's over in 7 seconds.

Andoo, I do not want to pick a fight with you. I'm just using your words as an example.
Just expressing my opinion. Peace

I'm going by my experience and a very limited knowledge of physics. If you lower the center of gravity on anything it is less top heavy. Thus making it more stable. Esp. at low speeds.  I noticed a big difference when I lowered my front forks, lowered my seat and installed clip-on's.  I sit much lower now and It worked for me, I’m cool with that. I do allot of canyon riding and 500 lbs. is allot of weight to be tossing around back and forth. =)

[CBGBs]

Andoo, when your riding your cycle, what keeps it upright? Is it your balance or some other force at work?

Geeto, Why are you giving me the 3rd degree? You said yourself in nearly all of your points that the effect was minimal maybe even imperceptible? I don't need to study aerodynamics to get it..... and yes you obviously know way more about the subject than I. Let's not make this a contest, OK?

[ic455]

The lower something is to the ground, the harder it becomes to cause that object to fall over.  This is why a CBR rider is perched atop his bike, it's easier to lean it into turns.  This is also why a Chopper rider is sitting more or less in the bike, and closer to the ground.

[nteek754]

Hey all I went the route of shorty shocks (ebay) new and installed them and they were way too stiff  If I put them on softer setting they would bottom out sold them back on ebay  Im 5 10 and do run a 16 inch rear comstar mag  and my seat is modified down a bit  I love the way it looks and feels sitting on it  oh IT is a 73 750K  I work on a lot of 750s and one is a 75 K stocker and wow  what a differance backing it out of my garage now on sisters 74 750 she is 5 8 I put the same comstar on the back  130 16 and I put lowering blocks on it and set her shocks to a lighter position case it takes some of the leverage away laying the shock down a bit but it fits her great I would really like to find a  set of konis or progressives for cheap but that prob aint gonna happen hope this helps have fun Craig in Maine

[eurban]

OK, here's a few thoughts on this subject.  Certainly lowering your center of gravity can help with handling.  Designing a cycle to have its weight lower down seems to be pretty much the rule with modern sportbikes. . . . .Lowering a cycle by (for instance) sliding the front forks up in the trees and and installing shorty shocks or lowering blocks isn't quite the same thing.  While there may be some "extra" built into our SOHC for comfort,  suspension travel is key for proper handling performance, particularly in less than perfect real world conditions.  The small tire contact patches are the only connection between the cycle and the road and without proper suspension this connection is compromised.  One thing to think about is that the suspension must not only compress to absorb the shock but it also must extend to maintain tire to road connection.  You are sort of floating in a suspension equilibrium with built in sag to allow suspension extension but enough spring load to keep from bottoming out as compression occurs.  No way in hell 3 inches of fork travel is going to do this as well as 10. Turning a corner while hitting bumps?  That 3 inches of travel in your lowered bikes front forks wont give you a good connection to the pavement and control will suffer.  Accelerating while hitting some rough spots?  Your shorty shocks (or lowering block induced geometry impaired stockers) won't put that power down to the pavement nearly as well as that stock ride height bike blowing by you.  Handling curves?  Lack ground clearance and lack of travel will hurt you again. . . .Sure lowering can look cool but at risk of offending the fellow with the lowered Pickup I sometimes have a real hard time getting it.  For intstance, you buy a, by design, heavy duty vehicle that uses a large motor to move around its considerable weight and the weight of its load.  Its useful but it sucks down gas and doesn't handle real well.  Now you spend money and cut up its heavy duty frame so that it can be lowered.  Now it looks cool but if your lucky you can put half of its original payload capacity in the back now and it is still heavy and sucking down gas.  Handling on perfect roads might be marginally improved but the ride now sucks and who knows,  perhaps you even have to get out everytime you go over a speed bump? Proper trucks are good for carrying loads.  They don't get decent  gas mileage, or fit in tight spots or handle like a car.  Scratch the load capacity it just doesn't make sense.  Sorry for the rant

[Aaron J Williams]

Andoo, when your riding your cycle, what keeps it upright? Is it your balance or some other force at work?

It's a combination of rake angle, trail and the gyroscopic effect of the wheels spinning. Actually, the more rake angle you have, the more you have to "heft" the bike when cornering because with the bars straight the steering head is at it's highest point and as you turn the bars the steering head gets closer to the ground so when you turn straight again you are actually lifting the weight of the front of the bike up. That is a big part of why choppers with long front ends suck to turn. As far as lowering the rear goes, I would think that would transfer weight to the rear more and you would get better traction. It would also change your rake and trail possibly negatively and the bike might corner worse. Tony Foale's book "Motorcycle Chassis Design" is a good read if you want to play around with stuff like that.

[Andoo]

OK, here's a few thoughts on this subject.  Certainly lowering your center of gravity can help with handling.  Designing a cycle to have its weight lower down seems to be pretty much the rule with modern sportbikes. . . . .Lowering a cycle by (for instance) sliding the front forks up in the trees and and installing shorty shocks or lowering blocks isn't quite the same thing.  While there may be some "extra" built into our SOHC for comfort,  suspension travel is key for proper handling performance, particularly in less than perfect real world conditions.  The small tire contact patches are the only connection between the cycle and the road and without proper suspension this connection is compromised.  One thing to think about is that the suspension must not only compress to absorb the shock but it also must extend to maintain tire to road connection.  You are sort of floating in a suspension equilibrium with built in sag to allow suspension extension but enough spring load to keep from bottoming out as compression occurs.  No way in hell 3 inches of fork travel is going to do this as well as 10. Turning a corner while hitting bumps?  That 3 inches of travel in your lowered bikes front forks wont give you a good connection to the pavement and control will suffer.  Accelerating while hitting some rough spots?  Your shorty shocks (or lowering block induced geometry impaired stockers) won't put that power down to the pavement nearly as well as that stock ride height bike blowing by you.  Handling curves?  Lack ground clearance and lack of travel will hurt you again. . . .Sure lowering can look cool but at risk of offending the fellow with the lowered Pickup I sometimes have a real hard time getting it.  For intstance, you buy a, by design, heavy duty vehicle that uses a large motor to move around its considerable weight and the weight of its load.  Its useful but it sucks down gas and doesn't handle real well.  Now you spend money and cut up its heavy duty frame so that it can be lowered.  Now it looks cool but if your lucky you can put half of its original payload capacity in the back now and it is still heavy and sucking down gas.  Handling on perfect roads might be marginally improved but the ride now sucks and who knows,  perhaps you even have to get out everytime you go over a speed bump? Proper trucks are good for carrying loads.  They don't get decent  gas mileage, or fit in tight spots or handle like a car.  Scratch the load capacity it just doesn't make sense.  Sorry for the rant

I don’t see how raising the forks up in your triple tree (lowering the front) makes you loose travel? The bike is still far enough up from the ground before it bottoms out. The forks still have the same amount of travel but the bike sits lower. Right?

I know what you're saying though, and agree.

[Blaize]

So I was watching this at work and rather enjoying it, then I got home and found we have moved right thru the "lighthearted should I lower it and here is a picture of my car" phase and right into the "lets get into a very technical discussion about center of gravity and its relation to vehicle dynamics" phase. Shame, I was rather enjoying the cars.

  To that end I will try to bring it back and give my thoughts on lowering. When I was in college I can remember having all these same long disscussion about better handling thru lowering, usually defanding the fact that my car rode like a skateboard. At the ripe old age of 31 I am now willing to say that I do it purely because I think it looks cooler. I have lowered every car I have owned for the last 10 years, the one exception being a Jag XJ6. I couldn't figure out a way to slam it withought spending more than the car was worth, so I sold it. I usually do it the "right" way, and I have never cut a spring.

  For the most part they have all handled better for it. And by and large been less comfortable. But I just like the look and I feel cool driving them. Lets face it thats half the reason most of us own these bikes, and I would venture to say most of our collective cars (82 dodge omni beaters notwithstanding).

I will actually be lowering my bike soon via shocks and clip-ons as the clubmans are becoming unbearably uncomfortable, and the damn thing looks like a dirtbike compared to some of the others on this forum. By the way, Proteal, they both look sh!t hot. but I am moving to England in a month so it will have to wait untill I get there (DSS here I come).

 Anyway here is a picture of my current fleet, and they both handle MUCH better than stock (all things being relative of course) and in this case actually ride better too.

[edbikerii]

OK, now this has gotten totally ridiculous.  Using the word "handling" in reference to lowered Volkswagen buses is just too much for any rational person to bear.

[CrisPDuk]

Stange as it may sound Ed, a properly lowered VW bus handles scarily well

A friend of mine used to own a '72 with dropped spindles at the front, a two spline drop on the back, and a 3.3 litre porsche engine in the boot. the transformation in all departments was astonishing

More than one cocky hot hatch driver had his ass handed to him on the roads round us

[Blaize]

We are getting pretty far off topic here but just to fuel the fire have a look at this

http://videos.streetfire.net/hottestvideos/2/57f304eb-5a90-4188-a51f-98810103e543.htm

[BobbyR]

I enjoyed the Aerodymanics lessons, they reminded me of flight school. I would lower my bike so my feet would sit flat on the ground. Doing the tippy toe thing at stoplights is not that macho.

[edbikerii]

She sure does seem to have very little roll on those turns.  Seems almost unnatural watching it go around turns without leaning out like most top-heavy vehicles.  Is that entire body made out of carbon fiber or something?

We are getting pretty far off topic here but just to fuel the fire have a look at this

http://videos.streetfire.net/hottestvideos/2/57f304eb-5a90-4188-a51f-98810103e543.htm