Topic: I'm an idiot... chain bad? really?

[mikedialect]

I'm an idiot(as usual!) and I really don't want to pollute the boards with another post (unfortunately I just don't know any better and the local PDPimp- who has been helpful- I don't want to keep calling the guy! I feel bad!) BUT... I ran into another issue today.

I was trying to be proactive and make sure that I prevented a bigger issue down the line and I went to tighten up my chain a bit as I thought it might be a little loose. A bit too much free play was on the chain. I wanted to go for a longer ride because I've been waiting all week for Sunday because I knew it was going to be gorgeous. So, I went to tighten it up a bit and I went a little too far. So, I loosened the rear axel and moved it all back and adjusted it several times and I couldn't ever seem to get it right- or so it felt. When I would pop the bike in gear after I got the chain tighter and within spec I would let it run and it was now clunking. It's almost as if the chain became instantly kinked! The chain was never noisy or clunked in rotation and I have lubed it a few times since I purchased it this winter. The PO had put a new chain on last year and he said he didn't ride it much at all before he sold it. The chain looks to be in pretty good condition. It was parked for so long and he replaced the chain when he got it because it was so old. The sprockets look ok- front and back.... but I wouldn't put money on my knowledge. Teeth aren't rounded, etc.

Now, after talking to PDPimp on the phone it sounds like I should get a new chain... and after reading up on here it ALSO sounds like I need to get new sprockets with this new chain. These bikes are driving me crazy! It's terrible. I love them so much aesthetically, how they run when they are actually running, not having some newer boring bike, the conversations they spur just riding around town... but seriously- it's one F*()king thing after another! The amount of money is crazy. I have like 3-4 days of one bike running at a time and those days are usually when I have been in the garage all day working on something else. I guess it almost feels like I'm dating three reasonably crazy women (are there any other kind?).

/end rant/

So, does it sound reasonable that by adjusting up the chain that I somehow loosened a kink that was in there and now I have to drop the requisite 130+ on a new chain and sprockets? (I was so excited to get new mufflers for the other little 350cafe too! It needs it dammit! One of the slip on's fell off in the city after my 750 meltdown.grr) I might be cursed. I'll egt about 100-150 miles out of the two 'running' bikes before they both decide to take a vacation.

[puppytrax]

...and now I have to drop the requisite 130+ on a new chain and sprockets?

... ...

Way too much! I spent half that on my CL450 chain + both sprockets from Dennis Kirk.

Have you checked your chain to see how stretched out it is?? Take it out, clean it off (dip it repeatedly in some sort of solvent), and check the stretch...drive a nail into your workbench, loop one end of the chain over it, and stretch it out...mark the free end, then push it together...mark the free end again...

Now, how much is too much?? Well, if you had 100 links, and they all wore .001", it would only compress .100"...one tenth of an inch...I would call that acceptable...but if they all wore .010", that would be...one inch... 1.000"...   

My chain was 15/16"...almost an inch...over 92 links...so I tossed that chain...and since it wears the sprockets in accordingly, I tossed them too...   

Give it a try...If you're not depressed yet, that should do the trick...   

[mikedialect]

...and now I have to drop the requisite 130+ on a new chain and sprockets?

... ...

Way too much! I spent half that on my CL450 chain + both sprockets from Dennis Kirk.

Have you checked your chain to see how stretched out it is?? Take it out, clean it off (dip it repeatedly in some sort of solvent), and check the stretch...drive a nail into your workbench, loop one end of the chain over it, and stretch it out...mark the free end, then push it together...mark the free end again...

Now, how much is too much?? Well, if you had 100 links, and they all wore .001", it would only compress .100"...one tenth of an inch...I would call that acceptable...but if they all wore .010", that would be...one inch... 1.000"...   

My chain was 15/16"...almost an inch...over 92 links...so I tossed that chain...and since it wears the sprockets in accordingly, I tossed them too...   

Give it a try...If you're not depressed yet, that should do the trick...   

I still don't have a damn work bench in my garage, but I could probably figure something out. The beer coolers aren't cutting it anymore!

I think I might have hit the "I don't want to see you anymore today" wall, but I do want to get some ammo to attack it tomorrow. I just could not believe that in simply tightening- not a crazy amount either!- that the chain is no longer working as it was before!

As for the cost- Dennis kirk doesn't list any sprocket for under $39- front or back- so that would be 80 for those and dennis doesn't list a chain either, but I assume, based on other prices that I would be looking at around ~40 for that as well.

[750goes]

before you go blasting your money away - check the chain as per what the guys have said......and I would also readjust the chain and give it a good lube as well - while you have the chain off to measure the wear on it - check for frozen links - if it all seems ok put it back on and adjust it carefully....ride it round the block - still clunky then go for the new chain and sprockets-

rear wheel alignment will possibly play a part in the clunking - if it is not straight.....don't always believe your chain adjusters   

[mikedialect]

before you go blasting your money away - check the chain as per what the guys have said......and I would also readjust the chain and give it a good lube as well - while you have the chain off to measure the wear on it - check for frozen links - if it all seems ok put it back on and adjust it carefully....ride it round the block - still clunky then go for the new chain and sprockets-

rear wheel alignment will possibly play a part in the clunking - if it is not straight.....don't always believe your chain adjusters   

I guess I wouldn't know how else to check to alignment. I've adjusted, loosened and adjusted it 12 times now to no avail. Lubed it- checked for frozen links a few times. I'll measure it, but breaking the chain with a breaker... how does it go back on? And what kind of 'solvent' would you dip the chain in?

[750goes]

chain adjustment

 - bike on centrestand - or if no centrestand support bike to get the rear wheel off the ground
 - loosen rear axle adjusters - back off several turns on both
 - loosen rear axle - you may have to remove a cotter pin on one side or the other.....
 - make sure the wheel can slide forward and backwards in the swingarm easily
 - start to tension the chain adjusters by hand until they both become firm to turn - don't take the skin off your fingers..
 - now ---- have a quick look at your swingarm and note the distance marked on both sides of the swingarm - hopefully they will be nearly the same
 - measure the slack in your chain at the midpoint between the front/rear sprockets - that is the total movement up and down
 - rotate the rear wheel  (it's not in gear is it?) a bit and measure again, do this a few times to try and find if any part of the chain is looser than another section...
 - if you hear any clunking while doing this  - investigate the area of clunking.....
 - now tighten the chain adjusters half a turn each and measure the mid point movement - do this at a few points on the chain rotation..
 - you will notice a gradual increase in the chain tension.....
 - when you have finished adjusting the chain - measure the swingarm markings - you may need to back one off and tighten another for rough alignment
 - nip up the lock nut on the chain adjusters - do not continue to tighten them...
 - tighten the rear axle - install the reomved cotter pin
 - take it for a ride and see if it is any better

good luck

[Slapguts]

Might be worth chewcking the spokes, too. My bike had very few miles put on it, and since I've had it I've logged close to 4k. Chain started getting noisy, so I tightened it, loosened it, lubed it, cleaned it, and found about 10 loose spokes on the rear rim. Turns out the chain had nothing to do with it.

[mikedialect]

chain adjustment

 - bike on centrestand - or if no centrestand support bike to get the rear wheel off the ground
 - loosen rear axle adjusters - back off several turns on both
 - loosen rear axle - you may have to remove a cotter pin on one side or the other.....
 - make sure the wheel can slide forward and backwards in the swingarm easily
 - start to tension the chain adjusters by hand until they both become firm to turn - don't take the skin off your fingers..
 - now ---- have a quick look at your swingarm and note the distance marked on both sides of the swingarm - hopefully they will be nearly the same
 - measure the slack in your chain at the midpoint between the front/rear sprockets - that is the total movement up and down
 - rotate the rear wheel  (it's not in gear is it?) a bit and measure again, do this a few times to try and find if any part of the chain is looser than another section...
 - if you hear any clunking while doing this  - investigate the area of clunking.....
 - now tighten the chain adjusters half a turn each and measure the mid point movement - do this at a few points on the chain rotation..
 - you will notice a gradual increase in the chain tension.....
 - when you have finished adjusting the chain - measure the swingarm markings - you may need to back one off and tighten another for rough alignment
 - nip up the lock nut on the chain adjusters - do not continue to tighten them...
 - tighten the rear axle - install the reomved cotter pin
 - take it for a ride and see if it is any better

good luck

That is pretty much what I did. The only thing I didn't do was take it for a ride. If I have it up on the center and I put it in gear it will clunk on me, so i didnt take it anywhere.

Here are a few pics of the sprockets & chain:

[mikedialect]

Might be worth chewcking the spokes, too. My bike had very few miles put on it, and since I've had it I've logged close to 4k. Chain started getting noisy, so I tightened it, loosened it, lubed it, cleaned it, and found about 10 loose spokes on the rear rim. Turns out the chain had nothing to do with it.

aye- comstars trump the spokes- but i do wish I had spokes on this guy!

[750goes]

sprockets do not look too bad - cannot tell about the chain from the pictures....

if you have it running in gear on the centrestand it could well make a clunk - because there is no weight on the bike, and the swingarm is not sitting in the normal position, the chain would have a tendency to ride up the front sprocket, and possibly slap about a bit...
you need to take it for a short gentle ride after tensioning it to ensure it is not clunking...

make sure it has not gouged the rear on the tranny case as well......

[750goes]

warning - from that picture of the chain is that the masterlink I see at the right hand side ??

if it is and the direction of travel is from right to left then all ok - but you may have it pointing in the wrong direction...

[mikedialect]

sprockets do not look too bad - cannot tell about the chain from the pictures....

if you have it running in gear on the centrestand it could well make a clunk - because there is no weight on the bike, and the swingarm is not sitting in the normal position, the chain would have a tendency to ride up the front sprocket, and possibly slap about a bit...
you need to take it for a short gentle ride after tensioning it to ensure it is not clunking...

make sure it has not gouged the rear on the tranny case as well......

So, I might just be an idiot doubly so...?

However, the master link is running the right direction.

The rear on the tranny case would show wear right in front of the front sprocket, correct?


And thank you for the responses so far! I would have put this thing against the wall several times if it wasn't for all the CB guru's who are generous to help and not ridicule my lack of knowledge. My old man was never mechanical and no one ever passed on any know how about this stuff, so I appreciate all the help. If I ever happen to have kids I hope that I can break that cycle with teaching them about cycles. Thank you, thank you.

[jaknight]

Hello Mike,

     Got to ask some basic questions............

     Have you disconnected all fittings, braces, links,  for the rear brake when you do the adjusting?

     With the bike up on the center stand and your chain adjustment is made........ when you actually get on the bike, the amount of slack in the chain adjustment is going to change.......... To me it sounds as though you may not be allowing for your body weight on the bike........... the amount of chain slack given in book/manual specs IS with your body weight on the bike............

     I have heard these sounds when I spaced out and forgot to allow for my body weight..............(who?.....me?)


     Just a thought.............

     ~ ~ ~ jaknight ~ ~ ~

[jaknight]

Hi Again Mike,

     Please bear with me on this Mike............

     In the third photo of your photo series, it looks like the open end of that clip on the master link is facing the wrong direction.......... the closed end of that link should be traveling forward (if you will) with the forward movement of the chain.......... it looks like the open end of the clip will be moving forward with the forward movement of the chain..........

     Am I making sense to you here?

     ~ ~ ~ jaknight ~ ~ ~

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

The "rule of thumb" method I have always employed when checking the stretch of my chains is to grab the chain on the rear sprocket and lift up. If you can lift it up to the tip of the teeth on the sprocket it is time to replace it. This obviously does not address the general condition of the chain, just the stretch, and this is not as accurate as the method given previously.

[number13]

Hey Mikedialect -

I am just getting around to reading your post, it looks
to me like a badly worn front sprocket, notice the bad
hooking on the front of the teeth? I would replace that
immediately, that same problem caused my bike to
break a chain, not fun, but at least the fix is cheap!

[mikedialect]

Hello Mike,

     Got to ask some basic questions............

     Have you disconnected all fittings, braces, links,  for the rear brake when you do the adjusting?

     With the bike up on the center stand and your chain adjustment is made........ when you actually get on the bike, the amount of slack in the chain adjustment is going to change.......... To me it sounds as though you may not be allowing for your body weight on the bike........... the amount of chain slack given in book/manual specs IS with your body weight on the bike............

     I have heard these sounds when I spaced out and forgot to allow for my body weight..............(who?.....me?)


     Just a thought.............

     ~ ~ ~ jaknight ~ ~ ~

I did not remove the rear brake when adjusting. Maybe that was just wishful thinking on my part? I wasn't aware that it needed to be removed. I think I over tightened it initially and then I backed it all off to the correct setting.

[mikedialect]

Hey Mikedialect -

I am just getting around to reading your post, it looks
to me like a badly worn front sprocket, notice the bad
hooking on the front of the teeth? I would replace that
immediately, that same problem caused my bike to
break a chain, not fun, but at least the fix is cheap!

So, that might be the noise I was hearing when I finally had it adjusted. A little whizzing coming from the front sprocket is probably a worm sprocket? It didn't make that noise until I had it set right.

The chain no longer makes the noise that it was when it was up on the stand- as I was being extra paranoid. Would you suggest front, rear and chain or if my chain is ok would a front be enough? Just wondering as I am bike broke at the moment. I'm also wondering what the 'stock' teeth & chain sizes are for this guy. I would like to keep it stock and order the correct ones. Advice on a good, cheap supplier for those pieces would most definitely be appreciated!

[jaknight]

Hi Mike,

     I hope I haven't misled you.......... you don't have to remove the rear brake itself........... but you do have to remove all the linkage to the brake........... it allows it to move freely with the forward/backward movement of the rear wheel.......

    On my '74 750 K4 there are only two pieces I have to undo......... a round threaded rod which is used for brake adjustment..... mine has a spring and a retainer nut you must take off and save for refitting......... be careful with that spring......

     Also, a rather flat brace which screws onto the wheel/brake drum itself....... it's job is to keep the brake drum stationary while the internal brake pads are expanding against the drum itself........

     I don't know if yours is just like my K4, but I am sure there is some type of hardware/linkage holding the brake parts stationary to the rear wheel.......... the linkage must be undone to allow for proper wheel movement while adjusting the chain.......

     It really isn't hard to do.......... just sounds a little confusing..........

     ~ ~ ~ jaknight ~ ~ ~

[mikedialect]

Hi Mike,

     I hope I haven't misled you.......... you don't have to remove the rear brake itself........... but you do have to remove all the linkage to the brake........... it allows it to move freely with the forward/backward movement of the rear wheel.......

    On my '74 750 K4 there are only two pieces I have to undo......... a round threaded rod which is used for brake adjustment..... mine has a spring and a retainer nut you must take off and save for refitting......... be careful with that spring......

     Also, a rather flat brace which screws onto the wheel/brake drum itself....... it's job is to keep the brake drum stationary while the internal brake pads are expanding against the drum itself........

     I don't know if yours is just like my K4, but I am sure there is some type of hardware/linkage holding the brake parts stationary to the rear wheel.......... the linkage must be undone to allow for proper wheel movement while adjusting the brake.......

     It really isn't hard to do.......... just sounds a little confusing..........

     ~ ~ ~ jaknight ~ ~ ~

I'm running a 78F and when I loosen the axel the wheel moves free enough to where there is play for adjustments. I have discs and the only thing I can think of would be the fluid linkage, but I will have to double check. I guess if it comes down to me having to put a new chain AND sprockets on I will park it until I can order those. I read a few posts on sizes, but I didn't seem to read a clear answer on which sizes are stock.

[mikedialect]

man, the chain game is an interesting one. Doesn't look like I can get a definitive answer with all of the stuff I've been reading on here. It does sound like it would be a good idea to go down to a 530 chain. Less weight is good and they are cheaper. I wouldn't mind getting a little bit more oomph in lower gears, but I would like to still be able to find on the freeway at 65-70. Anyone have any suggestions for chain size & sprocket size on a 1978 F2? Also, would I need to do anything else besides order up the new sprockets & chain?

[jaknight]

The Chain Game Continues,

     Hi there Mike, check out a posting by Medi09........

     It is titled Sprockets and Chain?........ the question mark is part of the title.

     As I write this, it is on page 12 of this board.

     Just as I did suggest to him, and which he did follow through on, I suggest to you that you PM (email) HondaMan and get his thoughts........... although on the thread that Medic09 posts he does quote good information from HondaMan.  Perhaps you can get the info you need from that.

     As for your present sprockets......... I obviously can't know for sure........ but.......... for what its worth........ the earlier F models had 17T up front and 48T on the rear.  I do believe a change was made, but I do not have exact info on the later models such as yours.........

     Check out the post I mentioned, Medic09's article is worth reading, then, if push comes to shove, contact HondaMan and hope that he is not too busy........

     ~ ~ ~ jaknight ~ ~ ~

[mikedialect]

well, it looks like I have 14-43. I put in a call to dennis kirk today and they don't offer conversion sprocket sizes. Sounds like I might be out of luck on getting a 530 chain on there!

[dusterdude]

try sprocket specialists

[medic09]

well, it looks like I have 14-43. I put in a call to dennis kirk today and they don't offer conversion sprocket sizes. Sounds like I might be out of luck on getting a 530 chain on there!

The Dennis Kirk tech guys were able to talk with me about the appropriate conversion; but, as you found, the company didn't have what I wanted by way of sprockets (seems to me they didn't have the front sprockets available, nor access to them).  I got mine from Bike Bandit, though not the ones I originally wanted.  It has been working well.  Check out my post for the whole tortuous process. 

[mikedialect]

well, it looks like I have 14-43. I put in a call to dennis kirk today and they don't offer conversion sprocket sizes. Sounds like I might be out of luck on getting a 530 chain on there!

The Dennis Kirk tech guys were able to talk with me about the appropriate conversion; but, as you found, the company didn't have what I wanted by way of sprockets (seems to me they didn't have the front sprockets available, nor access to them).  I got mine from Bike Bandit, though not the ones I originally wanted.  It has been working well.  Check out my post for the whole tortuous process. 

*nods* I feel like I will be playing it safe in regards to the lack of clearance I was seeing under the sprocket cover. I think I am going to go stock. I'm a weenie

[medic09]

There is nothing wrong with stock.  That's why most folks keep it that way.

[scondon]

 Just curious as to what the 530 "conversion" actually means. Does it mean sticking with the 14/43 sprocket count but in a 530 size?

  I've just been using 17/48 sprockets and 530 chain for the K and early F models, readily available and no problems fitting them to both of my F2's.  The final drive gear ratio does drop from 3.04 to 2.86 but still plenty of punch down low and the rpm's drop a bit at freeway cruising speed.

[dusterdude]

sean,when you do a 530 conversion,you change sprocket teeth numbers,but im not sure to what.

[mikedialect]

Just curious as to what the 530 "conversion" actually means. Does it mean sticking with the 14/43 sprocket count but in a 530 size?

  I've just been using 17/48 sprockets and 530 chain for the K and early F models, readily available and no problems fitting them to both of my F2's.  The final drive gear ratio does drop from 3.04 to 2.86 but still plenty of punch down low and the rpm's drop a bit at freeway cruising speed.

From Z1 (http://www.z1enterprises.com/reference/chain630to530.aspx)- Pete on the board passed this on to me. It's interesting stuff.

Converting from 630 to 530 chain
 

How to determine the correct sprockets and chain when converting

Why change to 530 chain?

Two main reason:
Cost savings - the 530 chain tends to work out about $10-$15 cheaper.
Weight saving - this is less mass the engine has to drive - and this tied directly with HP to the rear wheel.

A third reason is chain options - you can get more colors of 530 chain, and more variety of O Ring types.

In converting, it is fairly easy to calc the 530 sprocket sizes (see below) - but then you need to match against the availability of sprockets. If you want custom sprockets, Sprocket Specialists can make just about any size rear sprocket in aluminum - the caution here is cost and wait - depending on the time of year, you can wait 3-4 weeks for a custom sprocket, and may pay $10-$15 or more over the cost of a steel sprocket.

630 chain is 3/4" pitch (or think of it as 6/8"), 530 chain is 5/8" pitch - so the simple conversion in teeth is divide the 630 sprocket teeth count by 5 and multiply by 6.

630 15 tooth front becomes a 530 18 tooth sprocket.
630 35 tooth rear becomes a 530 42 tooth sprocket.
92 link rear chain becomes 110.4 links (rounded to 110).

The sprockets are the same diameter as before, just with more (but smaller) teeth.

Often you end up with fractions of teeth - these you have to round up or down - the key here is to calculate a ratio close to the ratio you require...

Click to read more on calculating sprocket sizes

To be able to easily convert from 630 to 530, you have to find sprockets with the same mount attributes.

For the rear sprockets, this means having the same center size and bolt spacing.  The following two sprockets have the same 80mm hole spacing, bolt centers 104mm apart and bolt holes 10.5mm in diameter.



For the front sprockets, the center spline size and teeth count must match to be able to swap the sprockets - the Z=13 shows the spline count and the 25mm & 21.6mm show the diameter and depth of the teeth.



Sprocket spacing is important too - on the two front sprockets above, you will see the 630 version has a slight boss (raised area) to the inside - to be able to switch to the 530 equivalent sprocket, spacers must be added to give enough clearance between the chain and the engine cases.  We sell spacers from both sprocket specialists and JT Sprockets - the JT sprockets spacer is 6mm, the Sprocket Specialists version is 1.5mm.

[mikedialect]

There is nothing wrong with stock.  That's why most folks keep it that way.

Yeah, I just thought I could lighten the price tag by 15 bucks as well... looks like this one is going to have to wait a little bit!

[mikedialect]

Well, I popped the new sprocekts and chain on today and I did loose the noise I was hearing. The sprockets didn't look to bad in comparison with the new stuff, but I did see that I was starting o hook the front sprocket a bit. I'd also like to add that this process is a great time to clean the rims and rear end!