Topic: Heard on the news

[eldar]

Then what is your solution oh great ed? I see you have none. I also see you like to lump everyone together into groups even though you are clearly talking out your ass.  Who are the good-for-nothings? Those who cant make it even through no fault of their own?  They are also leaches just cause you think they are?

Then you go to raise up one of the worst mayors in NYC history? You will notice his campaign is slipping down. It seems as though the REAL heroes of 9/11, the firefighters, have NOTHING good to say about Giuliani.  How are you going to put people to work if they have no skills?  Teach them? How do you do that? School maybe, which they cant afford and so would require tax money to operate? Do you get where this is going?  If you do not prepare them in school, you have to do it in the work force. BOTH of which require tax money. You cant get away from it. Or do you volunteer to teach these people and not get paid for it?

It is impossible to stop welfare altogether as you wish. All you will do is create more homeless and then we would need to spend more on police then to combat the homeless issue.

You and dennis seem to not be able to think past your own front door.  Try looking down the road and following the logical and proven paths and you will see this.

Dennis, I went to school in a small town. They depended on federal funding. When more came in, it was spent wisely and that little town has a very high graduation rate and very high academic standards.  Most schools require a 65-70% to pass. This town set it to 75% and we probably had less than a 10% drop out rate.

Gee looks like more spending works there when done wisely. If it cant work in your area, maybe it is not the kids, maybe it is the adults that are defective.

[edbikerii]

Eldar, I just told you my solution.  If you want people to improve themselves, don't take away their incentive to work, and to improve themselves, by giving them money-for-nothing.  EVERYTHING else will begin to improve from there.

Sorry Eldar, you are not qualified to discuss how successful Guiliani was as mayor of New York City.  I am, however, as I lived in NYC for most of his tenure as mayor, and saw dramatic improvements in quality of life, crime rates, etc.  Don't forget, he was overwhelmingly re-elected by the people of the City of New York after his first highly successful term in office.  The cops are pissed because he didn't give them the big raises that they asked for.  How do I know?  My best friend is a cop in the Bronx, and I have several relatives who are cops, Lieutenants, Captains, etc.  Also, Mike Bloomberg has been mayor since 2001, not Giuliani.  Also, Giuliani was named Time Magazine's "Person of the Year" in 2001, and he was subsequently knighted by Queen Elizabeth for his excellent handling of the 9/11 crisis.  All through 9/11/2001, he was a "lame duck".

Then what is your solution oh great ed? I see you have none. I also see you like to lump everyone together into groups even though you are clearly talking out your ass.  Who are the good-for-nothings? Those who cant make it even through no fault of their own?  They are also leaches just cause you think they are?

Then you go to raise up one of the worst mayors in NYC history? You will notice his campaign is slipping down. It seems as though the REAL heroes of 9/11, the firefighters, have NOTHING good to say about Giuliani.  How are you going to put people to work if they have no skills?  Teach them? How do you do that? School maybe, which they cant afford and so would require tax money to operate? Do you get where this is going?  If you do not prepare them in school, you have to do it in the work force. BOTH of which require tax money. You cant get away from it. Or do you volunteer to teach these people and not get paid for it?

It is impossible to stop welfare altogether as you wish. All you will do is create more homeless and then we would need to spend more on police then to combat the homeless issue.

You and dennis seem to not be able to think past your own front door.  Try looking down the road and following the logical and proven paths and you will see this.

Dennis, I went to school in a small town. They depended on federal funding. When more came in, it was spent wisely and that little town has a very high graduation rate and very high academic standards.  Most schools require a 65-70% to pass. This town set it to 75% and we probably had less than a 10% drop out rate.

Gee looks like more spending works there when done wisely. If it cant work in your area, maybe it is not the kids, maybe it is the adults that are defective.

[DammitDan]

Just as a quick reference...

Here's what Eldar is talking about:

[ledbetter]

just my 2cents,but if global warming is caused by man ,than why are the temp's also rising on Mars,oh must be all the landers and rovers we sent

[ledbetter]

O and one more thing about the south being more racist than the rest of the nation,there has been fewer racial problems here than in places like Boston,New York (crown heights riot),L.A.(Rodney king riots) and to many other major city's to mention not in the south ,so take your out dated thing and put it where the sun don't shine,
you probably still think it is fire hoses and attack dogs,I live here a will tell you there is less racial tension here than in a large part of the country.

Ledbetter

[eldar]

Ed, so far you have proven yourself to be an expert in nothing. Sorry to break to you. All those thing you mention are all political ploys and you know it, you just have a hard time admitting anything bad about nyc.

Also, if you actually could understand anything but 1st grade reading, you would realize that increasing a persons education will LESSEN THE AMOUNT OF WELFARE THEY NEED AND THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE ON IT. I dont know if I can make it any clearer.

[TwoTired]

In the wild, animals slow reproduction to guard against adverse conditions like no food sources, draught, etc. 

You make it sound so nice.

But, in the wild, when animal populations exceed their habitat, they slow and reduce their population with predation, starvation, disease, and pestilence.   The strong survive and keep the species viable.

They still pork without regard for the future and at every oportunity just like the welfare mothers do.

In the wild, a mother in adverse conditions can't feed their offspring with breast milk or with readily available food.  The offspring dies unless they become wards of the state.  A mother without offspring goes looking for another mate...the ones that can survive in hard times.

[edbikerii]

Eldar, I shouldn't criticize you.  You haven't seen many, if any, welfare cases in the "inner city", and heard all of their lame excuses day-in and day-out.  Maybe spend a few minutes listening to the "clients" at the welfare office.  Or sit in an emergency room that is clogged with people waiting to see a doctor for their babies' head-colds in the middle of the afternoon.  You should take a trip to Hunts Point in the Bronx sometime.  Everybody has a story, and none of them are any good.

HARD WORK is the only way for the poor to get richer.  Getting an education is HARD WORK, if done right.  The welfare system has removed the incentive for poor people to work, and to successfully gain education, and, as a result, ruined the work ethic for generations of their poor descendants.  All they have learned is how to "work the system" to maximize their welfare checks.  Work-fare is the perfect solution, because it slowly introduces those poor, demoralized souls whose families have been de-educated by the welfare system for generations to the world of productive society.  I think those work-fare cases are much better off now, and the cycle of welfare dependency has been broken for their descendants.

Oh, and you're right.  I love NYC, despite all of the problems I've mentioned, and many others.

Ed, so far you have proven yourself to be an expert in nothing. Sorry to break to you. All those thing you mention are all political ploys and you know it, you just have a hard time admitting anything bad about nyc.

Also, if you actually could understand anything but 1st grade reading, you would realize that increasing a persons education will LESSEN THE AMOUNT OF WELFARE THEY NEED AND THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE ON IT. I dont know if I can make it any clearer.

[eldar]

I have not seen the "inner" city welfare but I have seen the reservation welfare. If you think people in the inner city get money for nothing, you have not seen a reservation.  They not only get their own money, but have their own governing laws and such.

the indians are pretty much told by this to not work or work very little and as such not many go to college.

You may not have gotten it from my posts but I am against welfare but you simply cant just cut it off without causing even more trouble then you had before.

If you increase education spending and INCREASE requirements for education. It will work.

Do it like this, Either the person goes to school and stays in till they graduate OR they have to go into the military or some other service corp, in some menial role until they get a GED. Thus pretty much forcing them to graduate.

Even this system will have flaws, they all do, but it might get some of the lazy people to get moving on life.

[edbikerii]

You are talking about work-fare!  Menial work required for payment.  Also, there are already allowances in the welfare system for college students who can maintain respectable GPAs.

I have not seen the "inner" city welfare but I have seen the reservation welfare. If you think people in the inner city get money for nothing, you have not seen a reservation.  They not only get their own money, but have their own governing laws and such.

the indians are pretty much told by this to not work or work very little and as such not many go to college.

You may not have gotten it from my posts but I am against welfare but you simply cant just cut it off without causing even more trouble then you had before.

If you increase education spending and INCREASE requirements for education. It will work.

Do it like this, Either the person goes to school and stays in till they graduate OR they have to go into the military or some other service corp, in some menial role until they get a GED. Thus pretty much forcing them to graduate.

Even this system will have flaws, they all do, but it might get some of the lazy people to get moving on life.

[eldar]

I might be but I would want them to do a job that requires respect but demands it. Throw some of these bums into bootcamp for a while! Only in some extreme case should there be a drop out. None of this 40% make it through crap.

[Dennis]

You and dennis seem to not be able to think past your own front door.  Try looking down the road and following the logical and proven paths and you will see this.

Dennis, I went to school in a small town. They depended on federal funding. When more came in, it was spent wisely and that little town has a very high graduation rate and very high academic standards.  Most schools require a 65-70% to pass. This town set it to 75% and we probably had less than a 10% drop out rate.

Gee looks like more spending works there when done wisely. If it cant work in your area, maybe it is not the kids, maybe it is the adults that are defective.

This is not what I commented on. My comments are being associated with an entirely different set of circumstances.

I said that I will have no further comment and I will not respond to this this type of argument.

[kach_me]

...In the wild, animals slow reproduction to guard against adverse conditions like no food sources, draught, etc.  "man" keeps screwing with abandon but no protection without a care in the world.
With any luck, I'll be gone before the penguins and polar bears are.

Don't know your personal situation here... but there is no and I'll repeat NO screwing with reckless abandon going on in my household.  I'm married pal, my reckless screwing ended back in college (and, yes, I was protected!)

[edbikerii]

Hi kach_me, can you please edit your post:

http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=23931.msg247148#msg247148

Your post indicates a quote from me that was actually said by someone else.  I guess the open text format of quoting is susceptible to this kind of thing.  Can you please remove my name from that quote?

Thank you!

[edbikerii]

So Eldar, I'll tread lightly here, but I think I'm actually starting to sense some degree of agreement on the subject of education funding vs. welfare funding.

Would it be acceptable to you to gradually decrease the welfare budget while simultaneously increasing the education budget by the same amount?  Work-fare (or whatever you would prefer to call it) would, out of necessity, be the incentive for welfare "clients" to improve themselves.

[Uncle Ernie]

This is exactly why nothing gets done in Congress.
Probably why nothing is getting done by the alleged gevernment in Iraq, too.

Time to move on.  TTFN

[eldar]

That would certainly be a possibility Ed.  I would not mind getting rid of welfare completely, just take some time to do it. Not like a century but 20 years or so.

I would certainly go with something like what you say.

[edbikerii]

OH MY GOD!  What's next?  Cats and dogs playing together?!?!

If Eldar and I can go from arguing bitterly one minute, to reaching both an agreement, and a simple, workable solution for two highly contested issues the next, then there's no reason why the politicians can't, either.

Too bad the politicians (on both sides) are more concerned with gaining votes than they are with resolving issues.  Maybe we, as voters, should ask our candidates how they will work to resolve each issue, rather than "where they stand" on the issue.

In the end, we are all in it for the long haul, and politics isn't a sporting event to be "won" by either the conservatives or the liberals.

That would certainly be a possibility Ed.  I would not mind getting rid of welfare completely, just take some time to do it. Not like a century but 20 years or so.

I would certainly go with something like what you say.

[eldar]

I dont think they even care much about votes anymore. They drum up so much cash from their private dinners and crap, they can practically buy their way back in. I mean when presidential campaigns now spend a billion and even just state elections go into the millions, I wonder if it is not already too late.