Author Topic: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question  (Read 10068 times)

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Offline jwalters

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2005, 02:03:29 PM »
Perhaps it's time to take a step back?
Have you done all the major tune up items?
I think so.
Did the compression test show even cylinders?
Yes
Does partial choke application help?
I''ve tried that before, and I couldn't see any improvement
Have you turned your air bleed screws IN?
I believe you mean the idle mixture screws?  And yes, I have adjusted those, but I am running at the stock setting now.
Fuel starvation ought to make the spark plugs read white?
They are not white, but I have not done a plug chop.

What are your plug part numbers?
These are the stock NGK plugs from the local Honda dealership.  I can't image plug numbers would have this siginificant of an effect.  I can see this being a factor fine tuning the engine.  I am tempted to strap a video camera on the bike so you can hear the effect of snapping the throttle open.    ;D

Is your timing advance working?
Yes.

Is the rude noise coming from the exhaust or intake?
exhaust, with occasional spitting through pod filters (which is a typical  lean condition)


I would llike to make clear that the bike runs good at small throttle openings, even at high rpm, just when I really get on the throttle, more than 1/4 throttle or so.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 02:08:28 PM by jwalters »
1997 Suzuki Bandit 1200S
1972 Honda CB 750 K2 "Cafe Racer"

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2005, 03:14:20 PM »
Quote
As mentioned in my previous post Bob, float height is correct.

Sorry, missed that.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline jwalters

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2005, 12:22:31 PM »
Hello again, (Bob and Mark)  ;)
I put my needles back to the stock setting (in the middle ring).  I thought making a video might help everyone understand what my bike is doing.  I am running 130 main jets, which is way too large (pods and stock exhaust), (I will try my 110's as soon as I get them back from a friend) but I had similar symptoms regardless of the main jet size. 

My plugs are quite dark, which makes me think rich and the when I orginally got the bike, the needle clips were in the second notch from the bottem (and 120 mains, w/ stock exhaust), which would also make it run richer.  Maybe, I just didn't do the correct combination of 110's and needle position.  After everything I've tried I could see that happening.  I am really curious if what you see in the video is typical of a rich engine.  This is my first project bike so I don't have much to compare it too!

Here is the video, I think the sound is the most important thing here.   The bike will go through all the rpms smoothly in neutral or when the throttle is only opened slighty, it's just when there is load on the engine, and I crack the throttle open, it seems to really bogg down and quite firing or something.  BTW, engine sounds a little ruff b/c I only bench sync'ed em before I took it out.  Also, this video is 31megabytes so dial up users beware!  And don't puke looking at this, man it's kinda bumpy!
http://genome.uiowa.edu/~jwalters/tmp/MOV01982.MPG

Thanks to all who have given input by the way.  I have really appriciated it!
1997 Suzuki Bandit 1200S
1972 Honda CB 750 K2 "Cafe Racer"

Offline dpen

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2005, 12:29:53 PM »
Of course you could always use what I used-electrical cable ties.
But of course mine is a "rat" bike.

eldar

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2005, 01:50:57 PM »
Well if your plugs are black and flaky, then either it is too rich OR the timing may not be advancing correctly. With how you say it, I would almost think the timing is not quite on. As you rev slowly in neutral, there is no load at all but the timing does not advance much either. Now it appears you have a pre-77 model since you can move the needles. So what I would say is this.

1: Check timing-----replace condensers if you did not do that same with points. I would guess you got this bike from someone else. If they said that was all done, do it anyways. They may have done it but WHEN and was it done right.
Use dielectric grease on the points tab that touches the timing cam. Make sure gap is set correctly, You should NEVER run out of plate adjustment. IF you do start over since it is already not correct. Once you have correct gap, attempt starting then time fully with timing light.

2: Set ALL idle screws at a the same turn, such as 1.5 turns or so, maybe 1 turn if you are using pods, if your screws are on the filter side.

3: Make sure choke opens and closes FULLY. This happens more than we want to admit I bet.

4: Since you say you lug and bog when trying to accel udner load, With the 130 mains drop needles to 4th notch.

5: Clean plugs and run it again. Of course you will still need to do adjustments but this should give a good start point.

6: If you still have issues, accel to as high speed as you can and kill the engine. Check plugs and see what the color is and if there is a lot of build up.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2005, 06:58:17 PM »
Does partial choke application help?
I''ve tried that before, and I couldn't see any improvement
This would be an indication that you are already too rich, if choke does not make an improvement at low speed.

Have you turned your air bleed screws IN?
I believe you mean the idle mixture screws?  And yes, I have adjusted those, but I am running at the stock setting now.
We are talking about the same thing, I think.  Pre-77 carbs had air bleeds to change the idle mixture.  While the later carbs had idle mixtures screws to change fuel meterings.  For you carbs leaning the idle mixture calls for turning them out.  Pod filters change the pressure in the carb venturi's, which is what pulls the fuel out of the various jets in the carb.  Factory settings are unlikely to apply to your bike.  If your pods are less restrictive, you will have to turn your idle air bleeds IN.  If your pods are more restrictive, you will likely have to turn your Air bleeds OUT.

Fuel starvation ought to make the spark plugs read white?
They are not white, but I have not done a plug chop.
I've seen your video (more about this later), you don't have a fuel starvation issue.  At least not at the speeds you are running.

What are your plug part numbers?
These are the stock NGK plugs from the local Honda dealership.  I can't image plug numbers would have this siginificant of an effect.  I can see this being a factor fine tuning the engine.  I am tempted to strap a video camera on the bike so you can hear the effect of snapping the throttle open.    ;D

If you are running rich, a hotter plug can help burn away the extra fuel deposits.  D7EA would be a hotter plug.
I also asked in order to find out if you are running resistor plugs, which would diminish the spark voltage.  If you have borderline spark, it could work okay until the cylinder pressures increased with power/ load demands.  Then the compression environment would change so that spark voltage wouldn't be high enough to ionize the gasses between the electrodes.  Or, no spark when you ask for power.  Not sure this is your problem.  But, the theory fits.

Is the rude noise coming from the exhaust or intake?
exhaust, with occasional spitting through pod filters (which is a typical  lean condition)
Exhaust noise is possibly fuel buildup, then explosion when hot enough.  A charge not fired, then exhausted into the muffler, then a few cycles later hot exhaust gasses make it explode, (fart).
Intake popping can be a lean mix, early spark timing, or a leaky intake valve.

I would llike to make clear that the bike runs good at small throttle openings, even at high rpm, just when I really get on the throttle, more than 1/4 throttle or so.

Kudos to you for the video!  Pity you couldn't get the throttle position in view, too. 'twould almost be like being there, 'cept for the constant 1 G.
I've listen to your video, it sounds like you have a dead cylinder, as it is not running smooth, at all , at low RPM,  and partial throttle.   I'd check for a carbon fouled plug, given it's history.  But, first I would let it idle and check the head pipe temps to find the dead cylinder and the cold pipe.  Bench synced carbs should be nearly equal firing off idle setting.  Your tach needle jumps around WAY too much below below 2K. (Are there tight bends in your tach cable?)  Or, misfiring, due to mixture or spark problems.  I really wonder if the pilot jets (and passageways) in each carb are clear and flowing.

Shame you don't have a hill nearby to load the engine at low RPM.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline jwalters

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2005, 11:13:06 AM »
Wow, thats a lot of good advice.  I am going to swap the plugs as they all are probably fouled.  It is firing on all cylinders (all headers are hot), but my bench syncing skills are not the best!  I will take the time and bust out my Morgan Carbtune II and do it right over the weekend.  I also installed clear fuel lines to make sure I didn't have a fuel delivery problem.  Everything seemed good as far as that's concerned.  I also, moved the needle clipbs back to the stock middle position.  I have 110 main jets installed, so this should be in the ballpark of acceptable mixtures.

Next question:  Is is harder for the bike to create a spark under higher engine load?  Would additional compression in the engine cause a faulty coi or a poorly gapped plugl to act differently under load than idled, or with minimal load?  I am going to hook up my timing strobe and drive with it attached to the spark plugs and see if I get any mis-fires when I crack the throttle open.  Maybe it's something as simple as a bad coil that only shows itself under engine load??? ???  Because it really sounds like a couple pistons aren't firing at all when I crack open the throttle.  Could it be spark blow out from bad coils, how can I test these coils?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2005, 11:27:10 AM by jwalters »
1997 Suzuki Bandit 1200S
1972 Honda CB 750 K2 "Cafe Racer"

Offline jwalters

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2005, 02:32:39 PM »
I double checked my timing.  It was fine.  I replaced my plugs again, with propperly gapped NGK D8s.   I also road my bike with the time strobe light attached to the spark plug wires.  When I crack the throttle open, the strobe light continued to strobe, so I think I am getting proper spark while at WOT.  But still the bike boggs down under any desent load.
1997 Suzuki Bandit 1200S
1972 Honda CB 750 K2 "Cafe Racer"

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2005, 02:50:48 PM »
Maybe this was mentioned in an earlier post, but is your advance mechanism working properly?
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline jwalters

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2005, 02:57:20 PM »
Yes, the timing advance works well.  The indicator line smoothly traveles between the two lines when the throttle is applied.
jesse
1997 Suzuki Bandit 1200S
1972 Honda CB 750 K2 "Cafe Racer"

Offline jwalters

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2005, 03:13:19 PM »
Just thought of something else.  I recently replaced my spark plug boots with the 5K ohm NGK boots found here at cycle recycle.  Could these 5k resistor caps be causing the problem?  Was I suppose to use ~0 ohm boots?
http://www.crc2onlinecatalog.com/plug_caps.htm
1997 Suzuki Bandit 1200S
1972 Honda CB 750 K2 "Cafe Racer"

Offline Jonesy

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2005, 03:20:02 PM »
I've got the same plug caps on mine and no problems.
"Every time I start thinking the world is all bad, then I start seeing people out there having a good time on motorcycles; it makes me take another look." -Steve McQueen

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2005, 01:01:57 AM »
Just thought of something else.  I recently replaced my spark plug boots with the 5K ohm NGK boots found here at cycle recycle.  Could these 5k resistor caps be causing the problem?  Was I suppose to use ~0 ohm boots?

5 K ohm is correct unless you are using resistor type plugs.  Then use 0K ohm.

What spark plug gap are you using?    As and experiment, you could reduce the gap to .020.  IF your coils are somehow weak, the smaller gap will require less voltage to fire.

Another thing you could do is look at the ignition leads while the bike is running in a darkened garage.  Whack the throttle a few times.  If you have any insulation cracks, you'll see sparks jumping in the dark.  And, that would be wasted spark.  A timing light would still trigger.  But, there might not be a spark at the plug gap.

It will be interesting to hear of your progress after the carbtune, thing.

Next question:  Is is harder for the bike to create a spark under higher engine load? 
Higher cylinder pressures require a higher spark voltage to ionized the gasses between the electrodes.  The ionized gasses create the electrical path for current flow heating in the spark gap.

Would additional compression in the engine cause a faulty coil or a poorly gapped plug to act differently under load than idled, or with minimal load?

Yes, cylinder pressures are greater under load or when greater power is being produced.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline jwalters

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2005, 07:30:52 PM »
Progress!   :o

It's not running great yet, but with new spark plugs (gapped correctly), 110 mains and needle clips in the stock middle position, the bike will not bogg down if I apply almost  full choke (and it pulls hard!  ;D )  This is telling me that I am running lean. 

According to the FAQ I need to lower my needle clip or increase jet size (or both).  Unfortunately, I don't know how much of an increase I should start with in either case.  Since, w/o choke, the bike will stall at WOT, I think the main jet needs replacement for sure.  And I'll probaby do this first since it's a LOT quicker to do than needle clip adjustment. 

Here is my question  I have 110s in right now, I also have 120's and 130s.  Are those increments too large?  I have not worked on a CBs before, so I am not fimilar with how much a single jet size or a single increment of a needle position will effect operation.   I am hoping someone with a bit more experience could recommend sizes to try knowing that the bike pulls hard if I apply about 7/8ths choke.

As always, thanks!  (I need to get this fixed, before the thread hits 4 pages!  ;)  )
1997 Suzuki Bandit 1200S
1972 Honda CB 750 K2 "Cafe Racer"

Offline cben750f0

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2005, 09:50:11 PM »
talking to my mech... he reckons.. use the 120's... and do a plug chop.... he would prefer 125's.... though i am using 145's... but i am running 836, and big exhaust... start with you 120's.... if your choke is nearly closed then you need heaps more fuel... all you can do is suck it and see... keep us informed..peace
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eldar

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2005, 01:48:34 PM »
I would lower your needle first. Simpler than changing jets. Drop the clip to the next slot and maybe close your air screws a bit. This will bring in more fuel and less air. It is better to make small adjustments than large ones.

Offline jwalters

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2005, 12:35:59 PM »
Thought I would post an update for those curious.
I tried the 130 main jets w/ clips still in the stock middle position.  I am going to lower the clip a notch b/c I still need quite a bit of choke for the bike to not bogg down.  But man, it does pull hard when I use the choke! After adjusting the clip height, I am also going to try as large as 140 main jets.  I am running pod filters and stock exhaust, but I don't believe the exhaust has any baffles in it, b/c it's quite loud.  So 140 should still be within reason.  Anyone else running similar exhaust and intake setup?  I would be curious to hear what size jets they are getting away with?

1997 Suzuki Bandit 1200S
1972 Honda CB 750 K2 "Cafe Racer"

eldar

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2005, 12:56:03 PM »
WOW! Looking at your exhaust, You look to actually be running VERY rich. Do your plugs have this build up of carbon as well? If so then you are too rich. 140s would only make this worse. I have a 78k and it is made to run lean so I dont have much exp on the earlier carbs but this still looks rich.  You should lean it out. Open your screws to 2 turns than try it. Leave in the 130 jets for now.

Offline jwalters

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2005, 08:34:00 PM »
This bike was setup a lot different before.  The coils and caps were shot which lead to the bike "8 stroking" causing a lot of foul.  No so anymore.  The residue was from the previous owners configuration.
jesse
1997 Suzuki Bandit 1200S
1972 Honda CB 750 K2 "Cafe Racer"

eldar

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2005, 03:30:43 PM »
OK then that would explain it.

Offline jwalters

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2005, 03:45:12 PM »
The question still remains, if someone had to guess, what size main jets I should be running w/ pods and a non-baffled stock exhaust.  It would help someone like myself out a lot.  I have relativlely little experience with these CB750's and it would be nice to have some maximum jet size criteria, if you will. 

That way, as I am swaping jets and needle positions, if I can tell myself that if I  am still running lean at XXX main jet size and a given needle positoin, I should look elsewhere for my mixture troubles.  From what I've read, I am going to try up to 140s.  With varying needle positions and see how that works.

Hopefully the 140s will fix my leanness, but if not, i would like to be prepared with a main jet size criteria as mentioned above.
Gotta love it!
jesse
« Last Edit: July 18, 2005, 03:56:13 PM by jwalters »
1997 Suzuki Bandit 1200S
1972 Honda CB 750 K2 "Cafe Racer"

eldar

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2005, 04:42:27 PM »
Ok there is a bike link on the initial page for the website. It lists a 120 main as being standard and a 40 low speed.

If you are just not getting the gas, maybe look at your floats and try adjusting them to a different mm. 26mm is normal, maybe try 30mm.

I dont remember, how did you clean your jets? There may still be some clogging. I dont know about your mains but mine have holes on all sides, these should all be clean. Turn that air screw in to 1 3/8 turns per manual settings.

drop that clip to the bottom slot and see what happens.  You were using pods and 4-1 set up?

Offline jwalters

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2005, 06:02:43 PM »
Eldar, I know what the stock main jets are suppose to be, I have a service manual, and it's not 120 but 105s.   As my previous post clearly indicates I am NOT running a 4into1 setup, but STOCK exhaust but without baffles.  This will lean out the bike because it's more free flowing.  That is why I  cannot simply go by the service manuals recommendations.  I am curious to hear if there is any other users out there that is running a CB750 w/o baffles and if so, what their jet size is.
Jets are brand new, and don't need cleaning as my previous posts also mention.  I appriciate the advice, but this thread is already 4 pages long, so please try and read the last few of my posts carefully, so I don't have to bore the others with repeated details.  That said, I appriciate your time and advice!  Thanks!
jesse
« Last Edit: July 18, 2005, 06:10:16 PM by jwalters »
1997 Suzuki Bandit 1200S
1972 Honda CB 750 K2 "Cafe Racer"

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2005, 06:13:34 PM »
I've posted this chart (below) on this forum before, (actually, I got it from this forum)  Perhaps you haven't seen it?
Anyway, it shows what part of the carb to adjust for mixture changes at a various throttle settings.  Some people have the notion that the main jet will effect the mixture over the entire throttle position range.  To a limited extent it does.   But, it is primarily selected for mixture settings in the 3/4 to WOT throttle positions.
Since your carbs do not have accelerator pumps to mechanically dump raw fuel int the intake runners when you twist the throttle, they rely on a rich mixture setting from the low speed and needle settings for good throttle pick up.  You should be aware that you will never be able to snap the throttle open from low speed and expect a powerful pickup.  The sudden throttle opening, particularly with a low restriction inlet setup, equalizes the pressure difference across the metering jets causing them to cease flow until engine vacuum builds up again.  When the jetting is right though, you should be able to change the throttle position by one half and get good power and smooth pickup.

If you want to set the main jet first you will have to run the engine at 3/4 to WOT with the engine under load, then do the plug chop thing and read them to determine your current mixture setting at those throttle settings.  Then change you main jet size according to the engine's needs.  Look at:
http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Spark_Plugs_catalog.html
for comparative pics to read you spark plugs by.


« Last Edit: July 18, 2005, 10:13:14 PM by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

eldar

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Re: Manifold Boot / Air Leak Question
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2005, 09:01:43 PM »
Well all I can do is offer options. The jets numbers are on THIS site and as such, they should be correct otherwise someone would have pointed it out. But there are always discrepancies to be found in any manual.

I must say that my bike is made to run lean and it uses 110 mains which are larger than 105 of course. 
I would ask Bob or tired about what the correct size would be.

This of course is not really important since there are mods made. 

Tired makes good points and is pretty much an expert.

I still think this is mainly an air screw ting but only you can tell for sure since you are the mechanic.

I know how hard it is since I had 1 cylinder that ran super rich. Turns out it was a float valve not operating right.