Author Topic: Testing Carb Float Needles  (Read 4538 times)

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Testing Carb Float Needles
« on: July 05, 2005, 05:13:46 PM »
I have an idea for a crude test of the float needle:  With one carb bowl removed, I want to pour rubbing alcohol into the carb intake pipe and then test the needle by pushing it closed by hand.   I'm thinking that alcohol won't harm any internals, and should dry up quickly and completely with some low-pressure compressed air. 

Bad idea?

TIA,
Tim



x2qwk4ux

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Re: Testing Carb Float Needles
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2005, 05:22:07 PM »
Tim, I'm sure you're a really nice guy...so I hope it doesn't bother you much if I tell you just how ridiculous this idea of yours sounds.  Still friends?  Ok:

1.  Alcohol does not have the save viscousity as gasoline, so the results would not be the same.
2.  What, exactly, are you trying to comfirm here?
3.  Why are you pouring alcohol down through the carb throat?!

The best way to accomplish this, is to remove the carb-rack, set your float heights, and re-install.

Good luck,

Josh     

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Re: Testing Carb Float Needles
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2005, 06:47:15 PM »
Tim, I'm sure you're a really nice guy...so I hope it doesn't bother you much if I tell you just how ridiculous this idea of yours sounds.  Still friends?  Ok:
1.  Alcohol does not have the save viscousity as gasoline, so the results would not be the same.
2.  What, exactly, are you trying to comfirm here?
3.  Why are you pouring alcohol down through the carb throat?!

The best way to accomplish this, is to remove the carb-rack, set your float heights, and re-install.
 

LOL.  Yeah, still friends.  #1 did occur to me, after posting.  Re #2, I pulled, cleaned & reinstalled these carbs.  When adding fuel for the first time, gas began running out the back, i.e. intakes, of all 4 carbs.  (The airbox was left off on purpose to observe the carbs in action) 

The carbs are off.  I pulled one of the bowls to reinspect the float, needle & seat.  All LOOK OK.  But, this bike sat unprepped, outdoors for a year before I foolishly offered to get it going for someone, so maybe they turned to stone.

I want to be able to confirm, or not, that if the needle is pushed up into the seat, it will stop the flow.  These 44A's have 100% plastic floats... no metal tang to bend for adjustment.   I thought of using alcohol because I didn't want to burn my house down by pouring gas into a carb w/ no bowl installed.

I can't imagine how fuel could be pushed up the main jet, past the needle (or through the slow jet maybe?) and into the carb bodies, but that's what seems to have happened. 

What do you think?  And are there any overflow tubes??

TIA,
Tim



x2qwk4ux

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Re: Testing Carb Float Needles
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2005, 07:58:50 PM »
Yep, sure sounds like an overflow problem...but don't be too hasty.  Try to get that motor running / vibrating.  Sometimes you can simply tap the carb rack with a rubber mallet to help the needles seat.

Think of any dirt / powder you found in the carbs and imagine all of that encrusted on the inside of your fuel line.  Stable enough as long as someone doesn't walk up and do something like...say....BEND it.  In other words...replace the fuel line, too.  It'll make the carbs happier. 

Also, whether or not you have metal or neoprene-tipped needles...you have to closely inspect them for divots, dimples, missing chunks, and deformation.  Sometimes a chunk will glue itself to the needle-seat and misbehave.  Another possibility is that your floats are hanging up on your bowl-gaskets (Had that hapen before)...or are otherwise stuck in the down position.   


By the way, Tim:  What kind of bike / carbs?

Josh

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Re: Testing Carb Float Needles
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2005, 08:49:46 PM »
Guess what... I did the alcohol thing anyway.  Still friends?

The bike is an 81 CB650C.  I'm reviving it for a guy at work.  It sat, unprepped for a year or more, outdoors.  The brake pistons were rusted to the calipers.  There was no air filter ("Is that bad?" the owner asked!), etc, etc. 

You may be right about the sticky floats.  After doing my crude needle test, and before phase II, in progress now, it took the bank of assembled carbs and turned them over and over, listening to them closely.  When turned right side up, I could hear the floats drop, but when turned upside down, no sound until I gave 'em a gentle shake and then I could hear them drop. 

So, next step, I stuck a tight fitting funnel onto the bank's intake pipe and slowly poured alcohol into it.  I'm attempting to either  fill up all four bowls and hopefully the alc will back up into the funnel and stay there, confirming that all needles are seating.  Maybe it will over flow and I can get a better idea where it's getting out. 

Right now, the bowls seem full, because I pour until the alc backs up about 1 inch into the funnel and stops, or seems to, but really it drains VERY slowly, taking about 5 minutes for that 1 inch in the funnel to drain.  I'll keep doing this until I either find a leak, or until the alc finally backs up and stays there.  The rack is on my bench, and I've got a spotlight, so I can see there are no leaks yet.  Eventually, one of the two possibilities much happen, right?

Regarding dirt in the fuel line, I did think of that.  I sprayed carb cleaner through the new fuel line I used for testing (see below) and used a fuel filter before using it to supply fuel.

Here's what went on a couple of nights ago (from an earlier post):

I disassembled, cleaned and reinstalled (w/o the airbox, for testing) the carbs of a 1981 CB650C.   My aux fuel tank is a funnel suspended about 18” above the motor.  When I added fuel, it began flowing out the rear of all four carb bodies.  When started, the engine raced at first, then settled down to normal.  I added a little more fuel to the running engine and it began racing again.

When I cleaned the carbs, the floats and needle valve looked good, and I find it hard to believe that all four failed simultaneously.  Could it be that the pressure of the fuel coming from so high up was able to force it past the closed needle valve?

Also, this bike has a very odd petcock.  The petcock itself is the normal older on/off/res type, but the fuel then flows to the vacuum shutoff valve which is mounted on top of carb #3, after which it then flows to the carbs.   I left this off intentionally but am now wondering if the diversion and subsequent U-turn also serves to regulate the fuel pressure.  Comments?

TIA,
Tim
 

Offline kghost

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Re: Testing Carb Float Needles
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2005, 09:01:16 PM »
Doesn't regulate pressure.

If you have the neoprene needles they will shrink with age and no gas. Were the needles new?
Stranger in a strange land

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Re: Testing Carb Float Needles
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2005, 09:14:51 PM »
The float needles have black, rubbery looking tips, so I'd guess neoprene.  Nope, not new.  I'm confused about you said about them shrinking and "no gas".  If they shrink, would'nt it be "too much gas"?

BTW, I found my very slow leak.  Alc is welling up from the two jet holes (slow jet and ??   not the pilot screw, it's further forward)  in the carb body, the ones that are just a hair in front of the throttle butterfly valves (at rest). 

Perhaps because alc is thinner (I think) than gas, it won't leak with gas.  Tomorrow I'll open and re-inspect #2 and repeat this bench test (just the second part) with gasoline.  If it still leaks, new needles & seats all around.

Not sure how to get the seats out, though.  It's not obvious by looking, and the Clymer doesn't tell.

Thanks for your help.

Tim

Offline kghost

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Re: Testing Carb Float Needles
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2005, 09:21:07 PM »
When the carbs sit empty or gunked up you know.....

Like when it sits for a year......

The neoprene (the Black tip) shrinks.
Stranger in a strange land

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Re: Testing Carb Float Needles
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2005, 09:22:59 PM »
Yes...yes they DO shrink.  And so does the teeny little mixture screw o-rings on CV carbs.  They might puff back up, but it's best to just get new ones. 

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Re: Testing Carb Float Needles
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2005, 09:24:36 PM »
Amen. ;D
Stranger in a strange land

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Re: Testing Carb Float Needles. UPDATE
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2005, 05:14:41 PM »
I soaked the needles in motor oil for 24 hrs. and reinstalled.  The carbs hold fuel again.  I know, I should replace 'em all, and I would if it were mine, but I'm just the spiritual advisor.  The owner made the call.

Thanks for all the help.