Topic: Oil, Filter, Idling, and Neutral...

[Justin]

Just a few questions for you SOHC4 experts...

1. Any oil and filter recommendations for the CB400F? Currently running Valvoline Motorcycle 10w-40 with a Honda filter. Next change planning on using Rotella 15w-40 and Fram CH6009 filter.

2. After the bike is hot (up to operating temperatures), it doesn't want to idle...roll up to a stoplight, and after several seconds, it wants to die out (unless I sit there and keep the rpm's up a little bit). Idle is up to 1,200 RPM's. Any adjustments I can make?

3. I also find neutral very hard to find while the engine is running...any hints or tips?

Thanks.

[oldbiker]

Poor idling is almost always down to poor synchronisation of the carbs. Difficulty in finding neutral with engine running is due to clutch drag. This may be only bad adjustment but could be distortion of one or more solid plates in the clutch. One member also suggest taking care to get all the solid clutch plates lying the same way as regards the slight bowing naturally caused in the process of pressing during manufacture.

[Justin]

Thank you Oldbiker.

[eldar]

With oil it all depends on how often you want to change it. Some change every 500 miles some go 1000. This will al depend on the oil. Do this, change oil and use what you use now. after 500 change again and see how dirty the oil is or if there are any particles. If all looks good, go to the rotella and then you should be able to handle 1000 miles between changes. As for the filter, even the best filter can have bad results if not done correctly. I use fram on my trucks and they work just fine but the honda filter works fine too. I doubt one is much better than the other. One thing to remember though. The heavier the oil, the slower it flows in cooler weather. This is bad. If you can try to use a 10-40 rotella.Or even a 5-40 if you can find it. The fisrt number (if you didnt know) is how fast the oil flows at a certain temp. The lower thenumber, the faster. Second number is viscosity and resistance against heat break down. higher is better.

What oldbiker says about clutch plates is correct. Many of these bikes though have a bit of a harder time finding neutral while running though.

AS for idle, it could be sync issues but it could also be idle screw settings. If the idle screws are a bit off, idle is affected.

[jbailey]

I have used a fram, emgo and honda oil filter.  I really couldn't see much difference between them except for price.  I got the emgo's from Bikebandit.com for around $2 each.

As far as oil, I've used "automotive" 10w-40 (Castrol GTX), Rotella 15w-40 and Rotella 5w-40 synthetic.  The Rotella is by far the best choice in my opinion.  You get the added shear resistance of a synthetic and it sells for $13.48 a gallon at WalMart.  But most importantly it seems to run better and shift smoother.  The running better may be psychological, since I have no way to prove it.  However the shifting is a definite reality, but you will have to try it for yourself.  My son also uses the Rotella synthetic in his 2004 Kawasaki and he agrees that it and shifts smoother.

[Justin]

How did the Rotella 15w-40 work?

[heffay]

justin~
is it summer where you are?  go get some 20-50 whatever brand you trust.  these bikes get hot!  you want that kind of heat protection in the summer.  then during the winter i usually drop it down a bit or a lot depending on where i'm riding. 

[eldar]

Doing a 5-50 weight is about the best you can do. If will start protecting faSTER than 20-50 with the same high heat resistance.

[heffay]

ah the age old arguments just a different thread 

[Justin]

Well, here's what I was originally thinking...

Honda specifies the usage of 10w-40 year-round and 20w-50 when the temperatures are in excess of 59F. Now, certainly, engine oil has changed a great deal since then, but raw SAE viscosity grades have not.

A modern 15w-40, rated as so using the current SAE J300 scale, exhibits lower CCS viscosities than a 10w-40 of yesteryear, so the critical flow to the top end upon startup (at all temperatures) should be just as quick, if not quicker, to help in establishment of a hydrodynamic film as soon as possible.

The CI-4 PLUS additive package has several benefits, such as follows.

1. Before mixed-film or fully hydrodynamic lubrication can be supplied, the higher level of additives will ensure low wear rates by implementing a, relatively speaking, tough boundary lubrication layer.

2. High HT/HS rate of around 4.3cP will make fluid films resistant to squeezing-out in critical high load areas (valves, cams, piston rings, etc.) by keeping the fluid-film intact.

3. High TBN will help neutralize the effects of excess fuel in crankcase, minimize acid buildup, and make for a great storage oil.

4. Detergent/Dispersency package helps to clean up old varnish/deposits, while keeping piston rings and entire engine clean and performing properly.

5. Lack of CAFE-imposed fuel efficiency additives will help with proper wet-clutch operation.

Allison C-4 and Caterpillar TO-2 approvals along with high HT/HS would indicate very good performance in the wet clutch and transmission areas.

Oil specifications indicate, at least relative other common 10w-40 & 20w-50 oils, exceptional high temperature performance (the air-cooled CB400F gets a wee-bit warm in 90F riding!).

Blah, blah, blah.

[jbailey]

exactly what justin said!!

The 15w-40 Rotella didn't seem any different than the 10w-40.  The only synthetic I have used in the Honda is the Rotella Synthetic, so I can't say whether the shifting smoothness would be the same with any other synthetic.  The main reason that I  went with Rotella is twofold.  First, the price, and second Shell seems to be the only company that doesn't make a "motorcycle" oil and are honest enough to support the use of Rotella in motorcycles.  Check the motorcycle forum at Rotella.com for information.  If you ask any of the other oil companies any questions about motorcycles they all tell you that they reccommend the "motorcycle" oil that they just happen to sell for twice the price, and will not answer any specific questions regarding motorcycles.

[Sam Green Racing]

Jbailey,

Just to let you know that Shell do make motorcycle oil (Shell advance).
Type Shell motorcycle oil into Google and you will find all about it.

[Justin]

Jbailey,

Just to let you know that Shell do make motorcycle oil (Shell advance).
Type Shell motorcycle oil into Google and you will find all about it.

Argentina
Austria
Australia
Brazil
China
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hong Kong
Italy   
Norway
New Zealand
Pakistan
Philippines
Portugal
Singapore
South Africa
Spain
Sweden
Thailand
UK

Not here in the US...

[Sam Green Racing]

Stick with the Valvolene then, and see if you can get the right viscosity for the tempratures that you get.

[jbailey]

I know all about it.  They don't sell it here in the US for some reason.  But that's my point, they don't try to lie and tell people that they need a picture of a motorcycle on the bottle to use it in a motorcycle.  If someone were to repackage Rotella T Synthetic into fancy bottles and label it "Motorcycle" oil, people would trip over themselves to buy it even at twice the price!  In fact I am surprised Shell hasn't tried it themselves.

By the way, SOPUS (Shell Oil Products United States) owns Pennzoil and Quaker State (http://www.pennzoil-quakerstate.com) both of which sell oil in a bottle with a motorcycle picture on it.

If you do a little research, you will find that Rotella is in fact a widely used motorcycle oil, you just don't have to pay the extra money for the motorcycle picture.

[bryanj]

Even better than that back in the 70's guess who blended and packaged the Honda oil 'cos it sure didnt come from Japan to UK----You got it SHELL

[jbailey]

I worked for ExxonMobil for a while and learned a few eye-opening things that most people have no idea about regarding oil and gasoline.  I won't bore you with the details, but lets just say there are a handful of refiners and hundreds of brands of both gasoline and oil.  The "motorcycle" oils such as honda, yamaha, suzuki, harley, bmw, and on and on and on are ALL made by one of the few refiners.  If people stopped to think they would realize that Honda or whoever do not actually have or even want to be in the refining business.  It would cost millions of dollars to build a refinery and then you would have to hire people who know how to refine oil.  They all buy either finished products and specify that it MUST have a picture of a motorcycle on the package, or at least they buy base stock oils from them and then formulate it themselves (which is less likely than you imagine).  I don't know for sure which way each company gets their "motorcycle" oil, but most do not manufacture it.

If Shell (who owns refineries) says I can (and actually encourages) use their oil in my motorcycle, why would I not?  Remember, Honda and whoever else sells repackaged oil only makes a profit if you use "their" oil, so they would obviously only endorse "their" oil.

[TwoTired]

I get the gist of this aurgument as "Why not eliminate the middle man and buy direct from the source?"  I understand the desire to save money.  And, if you are absolutely certain you are buying the exact same product then by all means go ahead.  Having worked in engineering for many years I am familiar with rebranding.  But, there are several varieties.  One is to just take an off the shelf product, put your own brand on it and resell it at a profit.  If you have your own distribution and sales network, money can be made by buying in volume at a discount and charging a slight extra fee for your own brand name, that people will place extra value on.
Another type is to create specifications for a product to meet the brander's needs and allow others to bid and make the product to which you place your brand.  Let's say you build an engine and determine that for best performance and longevity you need type X base stock and type Y additive package.  You create a specification and provide it to companies who are capable of blending and packaging to your specifications.  In some cases you can actually drop ship the end product direct from the manufacturer to the end distribution channel, without ever having to stock it in your own warehouse.   While this oil may come from a manufacturer who also sells their own or another brand of oil, the formulation may well be label specific and unique for a specific brand.  Then again it may not.  The point is, that just because Honda oil may have come from a Shell plant, does not necessarily mean that Honda oil is just like any other Shell oil.  And, you would probably have to be a company insider to know the specific formulation for branded motor oil.  But, it would seem to be in Honda's best interest that their branded oil would work best in their machines.  Sadly, their really isn't enough firm data from Honda to say that another brand will work any worse.  I do, however, remember seeing a service bulletin that the new "energy saving" oils aren't good to use with wet clutches.  But, I doubt I'll ever see a formulation spec for Honda oil.  Or, any other brand, for that matter.  They wouldn't want the consumer to be too informed, after all.  Marketing and Brand loyalty is too important for that to happen!

[Harry]

Many older UJMs (universal Japanese motorcycles) do have a tendency to be hard to get in neutral, especially when the engine is hot. Its not a problem, you soon develop a habit of snicking it into neutral a split second before you stop! Its the badge of honour of a true UJM rider!

[eldar]

I have noticed that if I am still rolling that it is easier to get into neutral. I suppose that is too be expected since everything is still turning and that allows for easier neutral hunting.

[kghost]

Yup, Do it before you stop. If ya can't, slip the clutch a little in first while you hunt it.

If your done, just hit the kill switch then pop it into neutral.

[the_genrl]

 yep, i was thinking the same thing when i read hard to get in to neutral.  do it while moving.  harry: "...Snick it into neutral."  HA i love it! 

anyway, about the synth oils...Has anyone ever heard of premature clutch wear using synth oils on bikes with a wet clutch?   I think ive read that in some other bike manual i have but cant remember.  Now that i think a bit It might have been a synth oil additive like Lucas or Z-Max though...but not sure.