Author Topic: American Gestapo  (Read 10876 times)

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Offline kach_me

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2007, 06:54:07 AM »
Well Medic.......unfortunately.....this whole country isn't on the same page. I can tell you from experience that if you get far enough into the "backwoods" in certain parts of this great country................common laws are out the window!!!!!! It sucks ass and it ain't right but thats the way it is.

#$%*s can be found in all walks of life.  I know this is a beat-down on cops, but in my line of work I see all types and shapes.  As far as abuse of power... show me any field and I'll show you someone who abuses their position.  Just my two cents...
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Offline kach_me

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2007, 06:59:47 AM »
spying on anyone who might be rumored to have a cousin living in the same apartment building as a man with a connection to Al Qaeda.

So you're saying that if I have a cousin (regardless of whether I only see this cousin once a decade) who lives in the same apartment building as someone rumored with a connection to Al Qaeda, then I should be the subject of a government counter-terrorist investigation?...

... Now, if you're going to tell me that me being related to someone who lives in the same building as someone who MAY or MAY NOT be related to a terrorist organization is grounds for probable cause, then I'm going to tell you to shove it   ;)

If the Feds or any other LE group is watching a suspected criminal (terrorist or otherwise) and you frequent that establishment, then a pre-liminary investigation of you is warranted.  I'm assuming innocence on your part, so the investigation should be brief and unobtrusive.  Otherwise, they wouldn't be doing their job.  It does not mean that you (or anyone else) should be subject to a full body cavity search (figuritively or literally)... unless it's warranted based on the preliminary investigation. 
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Rocking-M

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2007, 08:27:43 AM »
The point is Kach you, the abuse of power by LE's is much more intrusive.
When an AH tells me he want accept cash or money orders for an item I
can just go somewhere else, when an LE stops me and I refuse his search without
a warrant then the #$%* can hit the fan, and his buds will back him up.

To add to GG's points about what is constitutional or not,

I don't see where Federal Law Enforcement agencies are constitutional,
in fact they are an intrusion into the rights of States.
About the only Federal agency I think that is recognized in the constitution is
the US Postal Service.
(Granted I have not studied the constitution with this thought in mind
but please do not quote that Congress can pass laws allowing this since if
they do they are in opposition to the intent of the constitution)

Offline kach_me

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #53 on: August 05, 2007, 06:52:09 PM »
The constitution doesn't lay the frame work for hardly any "specific" government agencies.  It lays out the frame work only.  We gotta figure out how to make it happen.  I agree with you that the lowest level of government agency possibly should handle any task; however, sometimes, that is not attainable.  You said that states should rule their folks, I believe that local governments should rule and, more preferably, local people should "police" their neighborhoods.  Problem is, that concept relies on common sense and self-control.  Lord knows we don't want a bunch of home-grown, Dirty-Harry's.  Ostracism is a powerful tool if used properly. 

With regard to the example that you gave, any LE agency that is denied a search on a vehicle, residence, or person is obviously not going to be happy about it and will bring pressure to bear.  No one said that freedom was easy.  Each of our individual desires may clash with the overall good of many other people at any time. 

Of course, we ultimately carry the big stick in that we vote.  If you're really passionate about an issue, get personally involved in the political process. 

I am not advocating freedom of LE agencies to abuse their powers here... personally, I think it happens more than we all suspect.  I was merely saying that LE agencies are no different than the local PTA (or any other organization).  Some good, some bad, some neutral.   
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Offline ChippK8

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #54 on: August 05, 2007, 08:08:11 PM »
Just to clear up some facts on Ron Paul.  He ran ONCE for president in '88 as a libertarian.  He has been elected TEN times to his house seat as a Republican.  He only received 0.5% of the popular vote that year.  That is why he is trying to get the republican nomination, independents don't win the general elections. 

He wins just about every internet poll there is and won the text message polling for one of the debates.  He is not correctly represented in the national polls for a few reasons.  One is because most people who support him are young and only use cell phones, polls are done over landline telephones.  I can count on one hand the number of people I know with a landline and they are all over 50.  The other is because he is not asked about in the polls.  If you understand anything about how polling works you will know that you only have a few answers to choose from.  They can ask a question such as "If you had to vote for Rudy or Romney, who would you choose?"  Not exactly an open ended question.

I don't think that Ron Paul will even win the republican nomination.  However, I do believe that there will be an extraordinary number of young people who will vote for him across party lines.  If Paul were to get even 10% of the primary votes that will  have a major impact on future elections.   People in this country are tired of being told the same things over and over.  They know when they are being lied to and it is getting old.  The candidates who all want to say the same thing and use the "they hate us for our freedom" type lines will be forced to realize that if they don't start considering to personal liberties of their constituents that they may not be elected again.  Look at it this way, if Rudy loses to McCain, it will most likely be because Rudy's hair looked bad on TV one day or something ridiculous like that.  It cannot be because either of them said something profound or original.  If Rudy lost to Paul, it would be for real reasons.  That would be very frightening to the neo-cons.   The average joe is waking up.  Personal freedom is becoming much more important than space exploration and subsidised farming.

If Paul somehow did win the Republican nomination, he would win the presidency hands down.  The Democrats took control of congress last year because they said they would get us out of Iraq, didn't happen.  The general situation has not gotten any better.  There is no reason for all of the people who would have normally voted republican last year to continue to vote democrat.  Take into consideration the stoner vote, the fundamentalist Christian vote, and all of the smart young people in this country that know better that are going to vote across party lines for Paul. 



Rocking-M

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #55 on: August 06, 2007, 03:33:08 AM »
Chip, you missed it on the young support of Ron Paul. Everyone I know who supports him is
in their late 40's at least and many older than that. It may be because you based your poll on internet
polling. ;)

Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #56 on: August 06, 2007, 10:44:36 AM »
To add to GG's points about what is constitutional or not,

I don't see where Federal Law Enforcement agencies are constitutional,
in fact they are an intrusion into the rights of States.
About the only Federal agency I think that is recognized in the constitution is
the US Postal Service.
(Granted I have not studied the constitution with this thought in mind
but please do not quote that Congress can pass laws allowing this since if
they do they are in opposition to the intent of the constitution)

All Federal LE is illegal and unconstitutional.

Of course, we ultimately carry the big stick in that we vote.  If you're really passionate about an issue, get personally involved in the political process.     

If voting actually worked, it would be outlawed.

Offline Rsnip988

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #57 on: August 07, 2007, 06:23:08 AM »
Hey Rocking-M,

speaking of gestapo, have you been to the "tail of the dragon"  I've read that the city,state cops in the TN portion of it are pulling people for going 31 in the 30mph zone, I've heard from other biker buddies of mine that theres a lot of sketchy things like your article going on in lots of places
R.K.S.

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1976 CB750 K6 Cafe'ish

bobsmith

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #58 on: August 07, 2007, 11:51:22 AM »
Its scary to me that anyone using or pointing to our constitution as a means of personal liberty or defence is called a "Liberal" by the powers that are or want to be. The 'right wing' of this country needs to wake up and realise its their freedoms at stake too.......The homosexuals made the word "GAY" have a different meaning...The right wing made "liberal" a new word too. (anything not in line with their agenda)

Rocking-M

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #59 on: August 07, 2007, 12:51:56 PM »
Rsnip, Haven't made it down yet, sounds like their trying to shut it down though and I'd hate to waste a
trip on that. Thanks for the heads up on that; I had just talked to a friend from Fort Mill, SC who wants to
plan a ride there so I guess we better check it out first.

I'm sure there is lots more going on than I know about since I live in a "quaint backwoods place".

Use to be legal to shoot revenuers here  ;D ;D ;D

Offline Cvillechopper

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #60 on: August 07, 2007, 12:54:39 PM »
It used to be that "Liberal" in a political discussion referenced the amount of governmental influence one believed was correct.  Originally (Washington's days) it meant one believed in very little government except what was absolutely necessary to protect against foreign powers.  Over time the meaning reversed and "Liberal" meant one believed that the government's authority should be applied liberally (just like a salve, spread until you get tired).  Regardless, both of these positions were about a political belief.
It has been used for many years now in a completely different fashion.  Over the last 50 years or so (before I was alive at least) "liberal" has come to be considered more about ones "moral standing" than their political views.  In an attempt to make an opponent seem untrustworthy, degenerate, or non-stanced, one uses the term in an emotionally provocative manner.  
Let's face it, emotions sell, logic has very little power over the VAST MAJORITY of voters.  I'm not talking about the US but the overwhelming majority of the human race.  Presented with perfectly logical stance contrasted to an argument based entirely on emotion most humans will go with the emotional stance and use some dismissive cliche such as "I just KNOW it's true" or "You just have to feel it and you'll know" to justify their simple, utterly ignorant position.  
It is a shame my friends... a true shame.

<gets off soap box>
I need to head home.  Work makes me grouchy.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.  Aristotle

Offline Rsnip988

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #61 on: August 11, 2007, 02:37:37 AM »
Rsnip, Haven't made it down yet, sounds like their trying to shut it down though and I'd hate to waste a
trip on that. Thanks for the heads up on that; I had just talked to a friend from Fort Mill, SC who wants to
plan a ride there so I guess we better check it out first.

I'm sure there is lots more going on than I know about since I live in a "quaint backwoods place".

Use to be legal to shoot revenuers here  ;D ;D ;D

Seems the NC branch of it is a little more relaxed (or is relaxing)  www.killboy.com

they have some great pics of bikes/riders in their "store"...
R.K.S.

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1976 CB750 K6 Cafe'ish

Offline kach_me

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2007, 07:49:03 AM »
Cville couldn't be more right... I've had many an argument with my mom and folks here regarding their beliefs on Clinton.  They all acknowledge that he screwed up but then quickly come back to say "He's so smooth and good looking and ..."  BAH!  I give!  I give!  How the hell can you debate looks?  Pisses me off good (probably 'cause I'm "not good looking and can't get away with murder...)

I'm afraid that's what's going on with Obama... another polished candidate with little experience in state government, let alone national and international issues.  Bah!  Just another pretty face. 

*** Democrat supporters warning label ***
Yes, I am Repub... but no, I don't want to compare Bush to Clinton... been there, tired of doing that... I can't convince you and you won't convince me... Let's just be civil. 
*** End Democrat supporters warning label ***


I'd just as soon elect in playboy centerfold.  Then at least all pretense would be gone.  We would all know that looks got her in the oval office. 

...where's my coffee?  I gotta quit reading this post before coffee! 
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Offline Gordon

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2007, 08:23:08 AM »
Republican, Democrat, it doesn't really make any difference to me.  All politicians are corrupt (it's part of the job description), and besides, it's the people who put the president in that position who hold all the power.  And no, I'm not talking about the voting public. 

It's been my firm belief for a long time that anyone who actually wants to be the president of the United States, does not deserve to be the president of the United States. 

Vermont1937

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #64 on: August 12, 2007, 08:53:38 AM »
I haven't read all the post on this topic ,but I have long thought that it is getting time for a "French revolution" right here. If people won't stand up for their rights themselves,who will. The goons on the blue ridge parkway could be dealt with very easily,if you get my drift! One other thing,I am not convinced that the trade towers were all what we have been told,if you get my drift!

Offline Rsnip988

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2007, 09:21:00 AM »
I would stop drifting if i were you, you'll eventually end up off the road...
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2007, 09:33:17 AM »
...,but I have long thought that it is getting time for a "French revolution" right here.
I thought this since about 1970 or so, before I learned the three key elements to staying in power.  Keep the people fat , dumb, and happy.

No food supply shortage.
Don't let them know what's really going on.  Leave plenty of confusing facts around.  Deny.  Put on a caring face.
Have plenty of diversion activities available to shift focus away from the important things.

This way, you only have to seriously deal with those who want your position.  Usually, payola works fine for that.

Cheers!!!!! :D :D :D
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Rocking-M

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2007, 09:48:47 AM »
...,but I have long thought that it is getting time for a "French revolution" right here.
I thought this since about 1970 or so, before I learned the three key elements to staying in power.  Keep the people fat , dumb, and happy.

No food supply shortage.
Don't let them know what's really going on.  Leave plenty of confusing facts around.  Deny.  Put on a caring face.
Have plenty of diversion activities available to shift focus away from the important things.

This way, you only have to seriously deal with those who want your position.  Usually, payola works fine for that.

Cheers!!!!! :D :D :D

TT, a great political analysis. This is exactly how our political system operates. There will be another big attack or
whatever the next time it is necessary for a congressional bill or whatever...



Offline cleveland

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2007, 02:23:36 PM »
Other examples......



It's so easy to talk about what "should be" from the comfort of your home but who gets out there to make changes happen?  Apparently the cops do.   



Offline Cvillechopper

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2007, 03:52:47 AM »
Just make sure you get their name and badge number cause the system will take care of them, right???  I make sure I get the info on any cop that pulls me over and am lucky enough to not have any cause to need it.  If I did I would certainly not be reporting it to the same office that produced the corruption...
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.  Aristotle

Offline Chris Schneiter

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2007, 08:52:59 AM »
One thing I've never heard aybody address is why 9/11 happened in the first place! Yeah, Alqueda is nuts, but why is it that it happened so shortly after Bush took office, and why was it so violent?
It's true that we were also attacked when Clinton was in office, but those attacks were much less severe, and Clinton didn't let them side track the country or use them as an excuse to further his own goals.
I have long held the opinion that the reason we were attacked so soon on Bush's watch was BECAUSE of Bush and his cronies! He came riding in in his first campaign as an ignorant isolationist (remember when he was asked the name of a president and didn't know it?). He's still an isolationist and is set on closing off our country to the point where even we can't circulate! He's like an abusive parent who chains a child to their bed to keep them from misbehaving and/or learning anything "corrupting" about the world! I think that we were attacked not just because Al Queda is whacked, but because Bush and his people are SO extreme. To other countries and factions, our President is the face of our country. To other countries, Bush is percieved as a threat, and when the President is perceived as a threat, WE as a country are perceived as a threat! It makes me afraid to live here...We cannot go around acting as if we will attack and kill others, or they will do it to us fist.
Earlier in this thread, there was talk of conservatism being a measure of morality. How much MORE immoral can the present regime be? We're talking about a guy who, like a little boy, couldn't handle the fact that he had lost the election. Even though Al Gore had won the popular vote, he kicked and screamed and cried in the state where his brother (can you say nepotism?) was Governor and spent countless US dollars and lots of time (destabilizing the country) forcing a recount, rather than taking his loss like a man and a gentleman.
Morality? When he finally recovered from his childish hissy fit, he and his bunch of criminals proceded to dismantle our constitution, destabilize our economy, and generally make it harder for normal, rational people to survive. Evidence of their total lack of caring for the welfare of their citizens was Katrina. By the time it hit, they had the whole "Homeland Security"mess so underway that in their fervor for "Security", they couldn't even provide protection for their own people! How big a deal would it have been to airdrop water, food, and portapotties into New Orleans, instead of wasting time arguing and defending who knew what when? We have the greatest resources in the world, yet our "Leaders" let people die of neglect! How moral is that?
And the Plame case! This womans life was ruined because her husband was critical of the administration! So then Scooter is convicted, but at the last second, gets clemency! That case should have gone all the way to Cheney, who was the one who took offense in the first place!
And Alberto Gonzalez! We've all watched as the baby faced liar lies to Congress, then changes his story, and is told to go home and get his story straight!
The self serving nature of all these people goes on and on...They jacked the economy around so much, that the people with the most are making the most, and normal people like me have a hard time making a living! I had an up and coming business, literally, until Bush came into office. I was doing fine. Now, I'm pretty much ruined. I still have my bike only because I won't sell it.
And the morality of an administration who LIES to the country telling them that the economy is doing so well, never mentioning the fact that here in Michigan, a state that has been consistently one of the largest producers in the country now has the highest unemployment rate in the country (presently over 7%), I simply can't understand. Michigan needs help, yet the administration ignores us...thinks we just need to buck up...just like New Orleans...
Yes, I hate these people. No, I'm not a terrorist, and will not go on a rampage...and I think it's shameful that as I said that, I felt as if I had to add the part about not being a terrorist because I fear that somebody may be watching... but I think that the people who are in charge are absolute criminals and paranoids, and should be prosecuted and sentenced to prison. Not only have they not helped our country, they've harmed us, and we have so much blind faith in our legal process that we just go on, assuming that the wrongs will be rectified... To me, that's what patriotism is...a trust and support in our country, but I don't think we can trust anymore. I think we all have to stand up and exert another meaning of patriotism...the ability to question, and the duty to do so.
These people have to go. I just hope the people have learned that "Morality" doesn't just mean that you go to church.
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Offline tsp37

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2007, 11:03:15 AM »
Chris, I am ready to take issue with everything that you've said except for the bit about Alberto Gonzalez.  However, my lunch hour is almost over and my time is short.

For now, I will stick to the election:  George Bush won and Albert Gore lost.  Florida became an issue because an army of lawyers were in Florida prepared to have a hissy fit over paper ballots.  Had Florida gone to Gore with the first count, you would have never known that there was an issue with paper ballots.  Now relax, breath deeply, and repeat: George Bush won.

I must return to my 9 to 5 oppression.

Offline Cvillechopper

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #72 on: August 13, 2007, 12:46:49 PM »
Now relax, breath deeply, and repeat: George Bush won.


You use "won" in reference to the outcome including the issues with ballots, lawyers, conspiracy behind the scenes, etc.  I (and I think Chris) use it in reference to the actual votes cast and their intended results.  But I guess that's just semantics to you.

No need to pay attention to the facts... listen to me...  repeat, repeat, repeat.... 

Saying something like that doesn't make it true, no matter how many times you try it.  Of course there are those who would rather the american populous never asked for more than direction on how to think.    I'd rather our government not try to brain wash everyone but that's hoping for a little too much these days...
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.  Aristotle

Offline Chris Schneiter

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #73 on: August 13, 2007, 01:13:39 PM »
And (my opinion, I can still have that can't I?) these guys are criminals. I'm old enough to remember Nixon (who started the deceit) and I know one when I see one. The fact that someone has been "elected" President doesn't automatically garner respect from me. For the last 40 years, for some reason, Republicans have tried to run the country to further their own agendas, not necessarily what's best for the people. I think the worst thing is that they think that their agendas really are best, and are arrogant enough, don't have enough respect for, and really believe that the American people are too STUPID to see the "truth", so they just do what they want and try to get their way...
They all should be in jail!
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: American Gestapo
« Reply #74 on: August 13, 2007, 01:23:29 PM »
Had Florida gone to Gore with the first count, you would have never known that there was an issue with paper ballots.

Yeah, really.  Had Al Gore accepted his loss like a man he could have saved our country a whole lot of aggravation and embarassment on a global level.  Instead, Gore and his minions of lawyers decided to try to UNDERMINE THE BASIS OF DEMOCRACY.  Shameful.

And Chris, maybe a few reminders are in order with respect to honesty and the Democratic party.  Ignoring the stupid sex scandals that the press used to distract the world from the real issues, here are some lowlights of the 8 years prior to George W. Bush:

* Questionable suicide of close advisor to the President, White House Deputy Council, Vince Foster
* Treasonous exchanges of technology secrets with China.
* WTC bombed once, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING DONE TO PREVENT SUBSEQUENT TERRORISM
* Scandals including Whitewater, and "missing" evidence later re-appearing in the White House.
* Branch Davidians, including women and children, burned alive at Waco TX.  (American Gestapo indeed!!!!!)
* Pardon of billionaire traitor Mark Rich

Nixon was an Eagle Scout compared to Bill Clinton.  A little breaking and entering in a campaign headquarters?  You call that a scandal?
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