Author Topic: Anybody on the scientology?  (Read 2705 times)

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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Anybody on the scientology?
« on: August 02, 2007, 02:18:24 PM »
I watched a week ago the "Twist of the wrist" DVD. Apart from the cool 80's hairstyle, I noticed that Keith Code thanked in the credits to Ronald Hubbard "Dianetics". If I'm not wrong that's the "bible" of the scientology. What does "Dianetics" have to do with riding a bike? Well, I guess it is a personal aspect of Keith Code's life, but i couldn't help but getting surprised.

I wonder if there are some scientologists here -if it can be publicly admitted and is not something as being a mason or the like-

Offline firecracker

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2007, 02:28:57 PM »
Don't know anything about Scientology, but I'm proud to be a Mason.

Is that statement not allowed there (Spain?)?

No need to hide your membership in the States...

P.S.  Sorry to hijack the thread, but I'm curious about Masonry around the world.
Life is like a game of cards.  The hand you are dealt represents determinism.  The way you play it is free will.
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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2007, 02:59:15 PM »
Don't know anything about Scientology, but I'm proud to be a Mason.

Is that statement not allowed there (Spain?)?

No need to hide your membership in the States...

P.S.  Sorry to hijack the thread, but I'm curious about Masonry around the world.

It definitely has some issues. I know it's no issue in the States -when I was there I saw many mason "halls" -or whatever the name is, logia?- Well, you know, the community center.


There was a civil war in Spain from 1936 to 1939, some insurrect generals tried to save Spain from the decadence and impurity. The republicans, helped by the soviets, tried to get victorious. As Jean Jacques Rousseau said, "after a civil war the only thing that is decided is whic one will become the new dictator", and in Spain it was Franco. He proclaimed autarchy -pretending Spain could be self-sufficient to overcome the international isolation. Banned all imports -that's the reason there was no jap bikes here until the late seventies-, declared Spain as the "european spiritual reserve", and didn't hesitate to put the blame of all evils to "jew-masonic conspiracies". According to the dictator regime, the masons were a secret cult that was trying to take on the country. Masons and jews were prosecuted. As in any dictatorship, there was no freedom of speech, association or religion. Catholic religion was the only allowed religion.


I have a school book from my mother and it is shameful how, from the schooldays, children were taught that the jews were evil and mean. The good boy was always clean and the bad boy was always dirty and with hidden looks. Me myself, at school, learn from the older boys to call "jew" to anybody who would spit on you, "because jews spit on Christ". Take the dictator propaganda, a less-than-educated population and an isolated country and you have a recipe for the hatred against the masons or any group that the dictator fancy.

One of the most powerful "secret" organizations here is the Opus Dei, a ultra-catholic group, not secret at all, but composed by many of the power elite. It's open to anybody, but don't expect to climb the ladder inside. It was founded by an spaniard named José María Escrivá de Balaguer, who was "sainted" a few years ago by the Pope. The Opus Dei is said to be very powerful because there is a lot of businesses and government decisions being taken among their friends.

Masons are not illegal at all, and they don't hide it, but still many of them doesn't say so -because it won't make them no good-, and still the mere name raises a lot of alarms in older generations like my mother's.

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2007, 04:32:53 PM »
Masons should not be lumped in with Scientologists.  They are two entirely different types of organizations.  The number one requirement for being a freemason is that you must believe in God, but it is not a religion.

I'm pretty sure that Scientologists consider Scientology a religion, but they don't believe in God.  I've read Dianetics, and thought it made a lot of sense, up to a point.  I'll leave it as an "exercise for the reader" to figure out what that point is for them!  I don't want to offend any Scientologists here, it just wasn't for me.  As a child, I was a big fan of L. Ron Hubbard's science fiction books, too.

Freemasonry is neither a religion, nor a cult, despite what the Roman Catholic church has been saying for centuries.  Freemasonry is a fraternal organization.  Freemasonry accepts Catholics, Jews, Christians, Muslims, whatever, as long as they believe in a "Supreme Being" or God.

Freemasonry claims to be all about bettering yourself, and the world, through learning, studying, and brotherhood.  Freemasons do all kinds of charity work, etc.  Ever heard of the Shriners Hospitals For Children?

Of course, there are always conspiracy theorists who will point out that you learn more about Freemasonry as you advance in your masonic studies, so the average freemason might not know what the more senior freemasons are really up to.  The conspiracy theorists might be right.  Or they might be wrong.  Again, an "exercise for the reader" to find out.
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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2007, 11:48:18 PM »
Masons should not be lumped in with Scientologists.  They are two entirely different types of organizations.  The number one requirement for being a freemason is that you must believe in God, but it is not a religion.

I'm pretty sure that Scientologists consider Scientology a religion, but they don't believe in God.  I've read Dianetics, and thought it made a lot of sense, up to a point.  I'll leave it as an "exercise for the reader" to figure out what that point is for them!  I don't want to offend any Scientologists here, it just wasn't for me.  As a child, I was a big fan of L. Ron Hubbard's science fiction books, too.

Freemasonry is neither a religion, nor a cult, despite what the Roman Catholic church has been saying for centuries.  Freemasonry is a fraternal organization.  Freemasonry accepts Catholics, Jews, Christians, Muslims, whatever, as long as they believe in a "Supreme Being" or God.

Freemasonry claims to be all about bettering yourself, and the world, through learning, studying, and brotherhood.  Freemasons do all kinds of charity work, etc.  Ever heard of the Shriners Hospitals For Children?

Of course, there are always conspiracy theorists who will point out that you learn more about Freemasonry as you advance in your masonic studies, so the average freemason might not know what the more senior freemasons are really up to.  The conspiracy theorists might be right.  Or they might be wrong.  Again, an "exercise for the reader" to find out.

Point taken, I didn't want to imply any relation between both of them, nor did I want to imply that being a mason is something bad -neither being an scientologist- It is just that, as the "Twist of the wrist" DVD seems to have been filmed in the 80's, I remember "dianetics" were very popular then. I remember getting in my parent's box fliers of how to get the book every other day. The TV is always publicizing his maybe most popular member, Tom Cruise, and I just wonder if Scientology's heyday slowly died and maybe Cruise is his only member right now.... ;-)  Oh wait, Travolta is said to be a member too.

Offline mark

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2007, 12:39:09 AM »
I'm pretty sure that Scientologists consider Scientology a religion, ........

It would appear that way. sort of.

...... The TV is always publicizing his maybe most popular member, Tom Cruise, and I just wonder if Scientology's heyday slowly died and maybe Cruise is his only member right now.... ;-)  Oh wait, Travolta is said to be a member too.

Count Isaac Hayes in as well.
He quit his role in the cartoon 'South Park' last year after a show satirizing Scientology.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4804334.stm
'Hayes did not take part in that episode but has talked widely about his work for Scientology, which he calls "an applied religious philosophy".'

I never read 'Dianetics' but do remember the ads that ran on the tube.
I do not recall any mention of Scientology. Just 30 seconds or a minute about how wonderful your life would be....... if you bought the book.

Happy trails.

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Offline Rsnip988

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2007, 02:39:21 AM »
I'm pretty sure that Scientologists consider Scientology a religion, ........

It would appear that way. sort of.

...... The TV is always publicizing his maybe most popular member, Tom Cruise, and I just wonder if Scientology's heyday slowly died and maybe Cruise is his only member right now.... ;-)  Oh wait, Travolta is said to be a member too.

Count Isaac Hayes in as well.
He quit his role in the cartoon 'South Park' last year after a show satirizing Scientology.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4804334.stm
'Hayes did not take part in that episode but has talked widely about his work for Scientology, which he calls "an applied religious philosophy".'

I never read 'Dianetics' but do remember the ads that ran on the tube.
I do not recall any mention of Scientology. Just 30 seconds or a minute about how wonderful your life would be....... if you bought the book.

Happy trails.

Mark


Funny how Issac Hayes had no problems with the show making fun of jews, muslims, catholics or christians....
I love the way they killed Chef off on the Show
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Offline Glenn Stauffer

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2007, 04:20:09 AM »
I'm pretty sure that Scientologists consider Scientology a religion, ........

It would appear that way. sort of.

.

Well, they do have tax-exempt status in the US and many other nations.

I think they claim membership of over 10 million, but independent estimates put membership closer to half a millon or even less than 100,000 according to Wikipedia.  A few months ago, I found a couple of videos discussing the 'church' put out by some of the more committed critics and it is an interesting organization.  Personally, I think it more a cult than a religion - but then again, there is a fine line there between the two.  If you want to join, get ready to sell the bikes, you'll need the money - well, more likely they'll need the money. :-)

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2007, 04:33:39 AM »
Yeah, come to think of it, I can recall passing at least two buildings marked "Church of Scientology", one is a building in Times Square.

I'm pretty sure that Scientologists consider Scientology a religion, ........

It would appear that way. sort of.

.

Well, they do have tax-exempt status in the US and many other nations.

I think they claim membership of over 10 million, but independent estimates put membership closer to half a millon or even less than 100,000 according to Wikipedia.  A few months ago, I found a couple of videos discussing the 'church' put out by some of the more committed critics and it is an interesting organization.  Personally, I think it more a cult than a religion - but then again, there is a fine line there between the two.  If you want to join, get ready to sell the bikes, you'll need the money - well, more likely they'll need the money. :-)
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Offline Glenn Stauffer

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2007, 04:40:30 AM »
I've seen their building in Los Angeles, but I guess the Scientology Mecca is Clearwater, Florida.  Next time I'm in Florida, I'm curious to check the place out.

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2007, 05:15:26 AM »
It is just that, as the "Twist of the wrist" DVD seems to have been filmed in the 80's, I remember "dianetics" were very popular then.

Dianetics espoused a theory based on 'bad assumptions' having been ingrained in our brains due to experiences that put us in physical danger (or perceived physical danger) throughout our lives.

I read the book in the '80s, but I remember an example.  A small fish is swimming in brackish water finding lots of food and getting fat, but suddenly a bigger fish comes upon him and manages to take a bite out of his fin.  It will become ingrained in the small fish's brain that whenever he approaches brackish water, he is in danger, and he must avoid it.  This is a bad assumption, as the brackish water might provide the most food for the small fish, and might therefore improve his survival likelihood more than the risk of getting eaten by larger fish.  Hubbard called these bad though patterns "engrams".

My distant, and possibly flawed, recollection of Scientology was that by getting "audited" through (apparently lengthy and expensive) Dianetic therapy, one could eliminate these misguided thought patterns and hope to one-day reach the state of being a "clear", which would imply that you had none of these engrams.

Obviously, becoming a "clear" in the purest sense would hold attraction for people whose entire career depends on making split second decisions without any mistakes, like a motorcycle racer.  I don't really see what good it has for movie-actors, but I'm sure they get their therapy for free, in exchange for publicity.

Hubbard discussed many different ways that people get these engrams, the majority of which seem related to parental abuse.  He claimed that surgical procedures under general anesthetic were very painful events for our subconscious minds, and any speaking or other sounds in the OR would become engrams.  He even went so far as to attribute lots of mental problems to being the victims of attempted coat-hanger abortions back in the '60s when abortion was illegal.

I seem to recall some highly publicised lawsuits by parents of Scientologists whose Dianetic therapists had "uncovered" memories of parental abuse that allegedly never happened.  I don't know what the outcomes were.

I don't know if Hubbard was right or wrong (or partially right and partially wrong).  I might have lots of "engrams" that cloud my judgement, so I'm not yet capable of embracing Scientology.  However, I have a hard time believing that Tom Cruise and John Travolta have thought processes that are in any way superior to the general population at large.

Again, I'm not trying to knock Scientology, I'm just trying to present my recollection of what I read in Dianetics, along with some of the criticisms.  As I said, I thought a lot of it made sense, up to a point.  I felt like I learned some things from reading Dianetics.
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Offline Cvillechopper

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2007, 05:48:36 AM »

Personally, I think it more a cult than a religion - but then again, there is a fine line there between the two. 

I think the "line" was merely created as a means of protecting one's own religious beliefs from intrusion.  "They're a cult and that's bad.  Come and eat our wafers and drink from the communal cup and be good."  A cult is simply a religion.  The negative conotation is created purely from a point of view.


From Webster
Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k&lt
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : the object of such devotion c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.  Aristotle

Offline Badger 5

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2007, 06:05:35 AM »

I have friends that I am still very close with that got wrapped up in Scientology in the late 80's or early 90's.  I have seen the transformation over the years and it's mostly disturbing to me.  Don't get me wrong they seem very happy with the choice they have made and I will never look down on them for it.  They sink every last dollar into the church, which many people do to Christian organizations, but with Scientology it seems a requirement not a donation.  I have been to the book store in the Celebrity Center in L.A. where you buy the required books to get to the next "level" in the church and they are hundreds of dollars.  Any religion that requires you to spend thousands and thousands of dollars to reach enlightenment and calls its self "not for profit" seems fishy to me.  And speaking of the celebrities like Tom Cruise and John Travolta.  You can't take anything they say about the church very seriously because the celebrities are treated in a totally different fashion than the regular members. 
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2007, 06:08:34 AM »
I don't take anything, any celebrity says seriously.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline Badger 5

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2007, 06:13:09 AM »
Quote
In the late 1940s, pulp writer L. Ron Hubbard declared:
"Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion"


I think that about sums it up
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2007, 06:15:37 AM »
That's an excellent rule.  They are all about popularity, and that has nothing to do with facts.  Celebrities have no business making public statements about politics or religion.

I don't take anything, any celebrity says seriously.
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Offline Badger 5

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2007, 06:18:00 AM »
My last post on the issue I promise

Here are two links to visit and you can see both sides of the fence.

http://www.scientology.org/

http://www.xenu.net/roland-intro.html
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Offline Glenn Stauffer

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2007, 06:19:10 AM »

Personally, I think it more a cult than a religion - but then again, there is a fine line there between the two. 

I think the "line" was merely created as a means of protecting one's own religious beliefs from intrusion.  "They're a cult and that's bad.  Come and eat our wafers and drink from the communal cup and be good."  A cult is simply a religion.  The negative conotation is created purely from a point of view.

I think there might also be tax implications whether an organization is recognized as a cult or a religion. :-)

Thanks for the websters post; I was thinking of looking it up myself.

Offline Glenn Stauffer

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2007, 06:21:55 AM »
That's an excellent rule.  They are all about popularity, and that has nothing to do with facts.  Celebrities have no business making public statements about politics or religion.

I don't take anything, any celebrity says seriously.

I think we could apply the same rule to politicians - they should have no business making public statements about matters unrelated to governing - religion, morality, science (I'm sure there's more) should all be outside of their pervue.  At the very least celebrities and politicians and religious officials and news people (among others) shouldn't be granted any special authority based merely on their occupation.

Offline Dawdlin Dog

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2007, 06:29:52 AM »
I read the book in the early nineties and Edbikerii sums it up pretty well. If I remember one of the other claims was that alot of these engrams occur to the foetus if the woman has sex whilst pregnant.
I think it was also why Katie Holmes wasn't supposed to make a sound during the birth of her child.

Scientology may or may not work as a system for improving people and I am open minded about it but I do question it trying to class itself as a religion.

Maybe becoming a 'clear' can sharpen the senses and improve bike riding. Meditation can improve concentration and that would probably improve bike riding too. I don't see any specific conection between becoming a 'clear' and riding a bike.

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My insanity is a little more permanent.

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2007, 06:41:47 AM »
I read once a famous quote -sorry can't remember to whom it was attributed-: "never enter anywhere that you can't leave when you want".


Regardless of what the dictionary says, for me the difference between cult and religion is that in a cult you are required to work and give your money for them. The best examples make the adepts think that they give it on their own will. In any of the major religions you can join or leave it when you want.

The idea of religion is to fill our spiritual needs. Some people is agnostic and some other think there is some kind of afterlife, and religion gives an explanation to that. The wordly aspect of religion has a cost and it is common sense that it is supported by the adepts. I guess anybody with the littlest common sense can see the difference between that and being forced to give your money to them.


I don't have data to support my theory, but according to what I've seen here in Spain, most of the people that join cults is people caught in a weak moment: they have lost a loved one and need something to believe in, young people whose personality is not yet defined etc.

I remember when I was 17 or so somebody outside a shopping mall asked me whether I minded to help him on a poll -there was three or four there-. Trying to be helpful I said yes. The questions were something like "do you think the world we live can be improved?" That's the kind of question that elicits a "yes", like asking somebody whether he thinks he deserves a pay rise.

After the questions were answered, he told me he were a group called "the movement" or something that wanted to change our world and if I wanted there was a cafe near and we could talk about it around a coffee. I was suspicious at the moment, but it was a public place, there was several of them, I didn't look rich neither was afraid of being sexually assaulted, and I have time to spare so I said yes. He and a friend started to tell me a fairy tale about a better world and after I left them say what they wanted, I tried a polite way out. They didn't let me, so I just left and that was it, but couldn't help but wonder how many people with weak beliefs would have agreed to tell them their phone numbers or adress and gets visited every day until they sign up.


Raul

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2007, 06:56:41 AM »
Just to be absolutely clear, I do not support Scientology in any way.  I am not a Scientologist.  I also do not object to it, or claim to have any special knowledge of the workings at the upper levels.

When I read the book, I read it with a very healthy skepticism, and found some issues that I didn't feel were acceptable to me.  I was not looking for a religion to join or anything like that.  I just thought that learning something new might help me improve my life.  Frankly, that is exactly how the book was marketed back in the '80s.  New points of view are always valuable, even if I don't agree with them.

I can see how coming at Dianetics without a healthy skepticism could be dangerous.  Especially if the goals at the higher levels are as malicious as has been alleged.

My personal opinion is that thoroughly analyzing why we do things, how we reach decisions, and questioning (not just discounting based on biases or unpopular sources) every piece of information that we are handed by "authority figures" such as celebrities and politicians is much more effective than adopting the dogma of any religion, cult or organization.  It is always the "mob rules" mentality that leads them ALL down the wrong road.  Independent, critical thinking is the only way to consistently make the right decisions.  It is of utmost importance to keep in mind that we almost NEVER have all the information.

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Offline Cvillechopper

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2007, 10:32:57 AM »
New points of view are always valuable, even if I don't agree with them.

My personal opinion is that thoroughly analyzing why we do things, how we reach decisions, and questioning (not just discounting based on biases or unpopular sources) every piece of information that we are handed by "authority figures" such as celebrities and politicians is much more effective than adopting the dogma of any religion, cult or organization.  It is always the "mob rules" mentality that leads them ALL down the wrong road.  Independent, critical thinking is the only way to consistently make the right decisions.  It is of utmost importance to keep in mind that we almost NEVER have all the information.



Very well said.  Logical analysis and a willingness to change a current idea are crucial to the potential of reaching any truth.  To paraphrase a movie (not a specific celebrity ;)) "Beliefs are dangerous.  Beliefs don't change.  People kill others for beliefs, but an idea, now that's something worth having."


I think there might also be tax implications whether an organization is recognized as a cult or a religion. :-)

Thanks for the websters post; I was thinking of looking it up myself.

No problem.  I just like to make sure a discussion like this is using the correct meaning of a pivotal term and not confusing it with the common connotation.

To take your statement to the next logical place (IMHO) so, a religion is a government subsidized cult.  Personally I find it offensive that the constitution's declaration of separation of church and state allow this to happen.  A Church, as the government defines it (which has much room for corruption), and its "officials" are free from the same contributions to the cost of supporting the basic facilities which they use just as any business would(i.e. roadways, fire/rescue, police force, things supported by taxes)

That would mean that EVERYONE paying taxes is forced by the government to contribute to the cost of supporting the religion.  Not sure this quite works in my book  ???
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.  Aristotle

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2007, 10:45:55 AM »
That would mean that EVERYONE paying taxes is forced by the government to contribute to the cost of supporting the religion.  Not sure this quite works in my book  ???

In Spain political parties and syndicates ar getting public funds. The same goes with major religions. Catholic church has a special treatment because of tradition and also because they serve some social causes -attention to homeless, schools etc- that should be taken care by the state, but in a couple of years the funds will be cut and it will have to get the funds by itself.

I understand that I, as a taxpayer, doesn't like that my money is used to support political parties or syndicates. But the truth is that, if they have to survive only by the fees of their affiliates, they will have a hard time. I guess it all comes down that the public funds are used to support causes of social interest, that are non-profit related, that otherwise wouldn't exist. Now the question is how much independent can a syndicate or religion be when it is getting public funds.

Offline Rhonda750F

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Re: Anybody on the scientology?
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2007, 10:46:23 AM »
I read somewhere that Ron hubbard was quoted saying "The fastest way to make a million dollars is to start your own religion."  Well mission accomplished.  

And didn't he say that all his theories and the idea of scientology were made up and wrong before he died?  I don't think I would follow some ideal that someone created and retracted it before they died, but then again they said he was crazy at the time.  

Either way, it's none of my business.  To each their own.
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