Author Topic: This is gonna suck.  (Read 3063 times)

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Offline ASCSurveyor

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Re: This is gonna suck.
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2007, 03:50:17 PM »
Pilot Roads... Not sure how many miles I have on them.  Maybe 4,000 on the rear and maybe twice that on the front.  Quite a bit of tread left on them.  I have been pushing them more recently, say... the past 4 months or so.

Here's the rear a couple weeks ago on a photo shoot.


Michellin has come out with a dual compound tire I've heard that has the stickyness of the Pilot Power on the sides and the mileage of a Pilot Road in the center.  I'm thinking that will be my next set.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: This is gonna suck.
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2007, 04:23:15 PM »
Right!  SCCA spec racers measure tire life in heat cycles rather than mileage or tread depth.

How old are the tires?
Racers replace tires regularly.  A hot tire out gases which hardens the compound.  A tire that has been subject to high stress and heat cycles loses some of it's tractive qualities.

If you have a tire that you've regularly been pushing close to its traction limits, you may have expected traction that it can no longer provide due to it changing its own compound overtime and temperature cycles.

just a thought...

Cheers,
SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
1986 GL1200I - SOLD
2004 BMW R1150R

Jetting: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg258435#msg258435
Needles:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg253711#msg253711

Offline TwoTired

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Re: This is gonna suck.
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2007, 04:31:45 PM »
Maybe I wasn't clear..?

Mileage use means nothing to the rubber compound abilities.  If you put a brand new tire in an oven and bake it near max operating temp for a few hours or days, it will come out of the oven with less traction capabilities than when it went in.  The compound has hardened, due to the loss of solvents from out gassing.  But, the tread depth hasn't changed.  Out gassing begins when the tire is manufactured, and accelerates with heat.  The harder you use the tire, the more heat it develops, and the compound hardens, providing less grip.

Racers change tires between heats because of this compound deterioration, not necessarily because the tread has thinned.

This is often why owners are so impressed with the new tires (of whatever brand) they just put on their machine, because the compound is much newer than the old tires they just removed.    It may not actually provide any more traction than the tire they just took off the bike when its compound was new.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: This is gonna suck.
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2007, 04:38:56 PM »
Michelin launched a couple of weeks ago a big advertising campaign in spanish magazines for a recall, but it was for Pilot Power 2CT and Pilot Power in 120/70 ZR 17 Made in France.

http://www.michelin.com/pilotpowerrecall


According to the pictures, the turn didn't seem so sharp as to have to lean much to ride over it. That means traction shouldn't be an issue in normal riding, in my opinion not even with cold tires. There is a lot of talk about rubber temperature but if you don't trash your bike it shouldn't be an issue. Rubber temperature can make a difference giving the grip you need in the last degrees of lean, but if you aren't leaning to the max it shouldn't be the cause for an accident.


Raul


Offline ASCSurveyor

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Re: This is gonna suck.
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2007, 04:42:31 PM »
Yeah, I mis-understood you, TwoTired.  My bad. 

It's a pretty sharp turn, Raul.  90 deg.  Decreasing radius the way I was going.  I'm very familiar with it, since I take the road going to and coming home from work every day.  I guess that's why I'm so frustrated about this.
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Offline techy5025

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Re: This is gonna suck.
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2007, 05:15:36 PM »
I got all the bashed parts replaced on my CBR yesterday and took it back out for the first time in a couple of weeks. It will take a while to get my full confidence back and I'm not a really aggressive rider. Being still sore a little served as a great reminder to go easy on the brakes.  Dropping a bike when no other vehicles are involved makes you question your abilities....especially on a straight road.  ::)

We have had so much rain here in Florida the last several weeks that all the roads have developed potholes and other irregularities that can really do you in on a bike. I wonder if that wide irregularity in the road developed since the last time you came around that corner? Heat can bring oil to the surface also.

It is really frustrating to not be able to analyze clearly what caused a drop as the mind will tell us it will happen again.

Jim
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1969 750 K0 (Reborn)
1969 Sandcast 750 K0 (Reborn)
2003 CBR600F4I
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Offline xtalon

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Re: This is gonna suck.
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2007, 06:59:19 PM »
How old are the tires?
Racers replace tires regularly.  A hot tire out gases which hardens the compound.  A tire that has been subject to high stress and heat cycles loses some of it's tractive qualities.

If you have a tire that you've regularly been pushing close to its traction limits, you may have expected traction that it can no longer provide due to it changing its own compound overtime and temperature cycles.

just a thought...

Cheers,

TT, I agree with everything you said, but more in regards to discussing race tires.  Race tires are not good for many heat cycles; whereas, modern street tires have to be made to handle many heat cycles.  I'm not saying an older street tire is as good as newer street tire in terms of the compound because I honestly don't know.  I'm just don't think it is a huge issue with street tires... but I can only go from my own experience.

I've ridden many a modern sportbike tire to the end of their tread life and have never had major issues with the compound changing that I am aware of.  A bigger issue to me is the profile of the tire changing from wear.

--xTalon
1976 Honda CB750K
2006 Yamaha R6v
2009 Ducati SportsClassic Bi-posto

Offline 78 k550

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Re: This is gonna suck.
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2007, 09:23:33 PM »
Glad your ok.

Paul
Paul
Littleton, CO

76/77 CB 750F, 
75 GL1000, (AKA GL1-242 NGWClub),
76 GL1000 LTD
84 GL1200 Standard
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Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: This is gonna suck.
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2007, 01:45:08 AM »
If I'm not wrong the tread depth doesn't mean a thing unless there is water in the road. In any other case, the more contact surface the better, and for that nothing beats the race slicks. Rubber hardness do matter, on the contrary.


Raul

Offline TwoTired

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Re: This is gonna suck.
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2007, 01:06:40 PM »
I've ridden many a modern sportbike tire to the end of their tread life and have never had major issues with the compound changing that I am aware of.  A bigger issue to me is the profile of the tire changing from wear.
--xTalon

Probably discussing nits here. 
Race tires are made and the compound chosen in order to cope with the high heat excursions encountered during racing.  They can chose a compound that withstands high heat, but that may not give the best traction for the track surface du jour.  So, it is a compromise, traction vs withstand/longevity.  Softer tires may get you around the corner quicker, but will they last the entire race without becoming soft, slippery goo, or fail entirely as the heating abuse from cornering braking and acceleration increases?  It's now nearly a science and they can rate such tires in heat cycles, temp limits, etc.

Street tires are not expected to endure the rapid, repeated, high heat cycles, that race tires do.  They are also expected to last longer than a race day heat, too.  Take a street tire to the track, and if you don't slide off, the tires will not likely last very long, because of the higher heating involved.
So, if you use your street tires as though they were race tires on the street, you can expect them to harden quicker than with "normal" use, what ever that is.  The rubber for street tires likely has far more silica in it to lengthen mileage replacement.  But, the rubber component will still age faster in high heat conditions than in cooler ones.

The base material property is the same.  You don't have to use a tire at all for it to develop age cracks.  This is caused by the rubber out gassing and losing it's plasicizers.  Store your new tires in a hot ventilated warehouse for a few years and it will harden up, guaranteed.

The phenomenon is similar to a pan of water on a stove.  The pan will hold water for quite a long time unheated.  However, if you apply heat, even well below boiling, the water "out gases" much more rapidly.

The nit part is just how much grip is lost, over how fast a time; 6 months, a year, 2 years, 5 years?  I would expect tires under heavy use in Arizona Summer would show hardening and grip lost earlier than tires driven "normally" in Canada.  I don't know how to quantify that difference, though, especially since road surface traction qualities differ greatly within townships, not to mention states and countries.
I'm not likely to find out first hand, either, because doing so means pushing to the edge.  Now that I have come to realize how little life I have left, I'd prefer my remaining years to have ambulatory qualities.  So, I'll let you youngsters find where the grip is lost, and hope a speedy recovery for those that exceed it.

In summary, you can wear the tread off the tire long before the compound hardens.  You can also have lots of tread on a tire whose rubber has hardened with time/temp.
But, I do agree that tread profile matters a great deal.

I don't know if tires played a part in ASCS's accident.  But, If he was treating the tires like a racer would, then the definitive answer is ... maybe?   

I wonder if a thumbnail test would lend clues?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.