Author Topic: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.  (Read 8234 times)

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Offline gregimotis

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2007, 08:36:40 AM »
If someone is in your house without an invitation, they have already given their consent to be killed, period.  That's what "Castle Doctrine" laws are for, they do away with this stupid "you must retreat from a confrontation if possible" that has been kicking around in our court system.

Whether it's right or not morally; what you're saying is not right legally.  The castle doctrine laws are gone on most of the US or are gray areas at best.  Usually the law allows that you can't retreat any further than your own home and yet; the law also only gives a person the leeway to defend himself 'as much as needed to remove the threat'.  That's a huge gray area.


RBSD (reality based self defense) systems nowadays usually include 'getting to go home to your family' as one of the goals of self defense.

It's a complicated thing to work - on the one hand, the best way to win a violent confrontation is to hit with the biggest weapon you've got as early in the struggle as you can - and then continue hitting as long as there is any need.  Obviously, that's also the very best way to land in jail.

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Offline BobbyR

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2007, 09:53:47 AM »
Good job, you had the chance to stop a thief from continuing to rob (and/or rape, pillage, etc) your friends, neighbors, and other fellow citizens, but you chose to let him run off so that he could terrorize and steal from them in the future instead. ???  As a member of a free society, it is your duty to not let this happen.  That is why we have such a huge crime problem, people refuse to fulfill their obligation to society and take care of these problems once and for all when they happen.  If someone is in your house without an invitation, they have already given their consent to be killed, period.  That's what "Castle Doctrine" laws are for, they do away with this stupid "you must retreat from a confrontation if possible" that has been kicking around in our court system.
I think you miss the point. I cannot claim "Castle" when the guy iis running away from me thru the woods. Even if I were on duty I could not shoot him to apprehend since he was not a fleeing a felony.
I think some of you think that taking a life is a lot easier than it is. When you are firing the mini guns and rockets in the heat of the moment all is fine. Back at base in the dead of night you sometimes remember what a good days "work" looks like. When I was "on the job" I met guys who had killed in the line of duty, they were not happy about it. You can never predict how you are going to feel until you do it. I have the means and the will to protect my family, I would rather not have to. 

u
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Offline Gamma

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2007, 11:05:01 AM »
Apart from the high fuel costs, the rain, the anti biking public, the cost of living, the reduction in our armed forces, the thought of a gadget on my bike which bills me for the journeys I take, travelling through Heathrow airport, no smoking laws, getting ripped off at the cost of race meetings, Wimbledon fortnight, this is just one of the many reasons why I and many other people are leaving the U.K.
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Offline Dawdlin Dog

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2007, 11:11:49 AM »
You can't infringe a smack head's "human right" to burgle your house and steal your property in the UK, in fact if you don't help him carry out the heavier items you could probably be done under Health and Safety legislation.
Having been out of the UK from 1994 to 2004 I was astonished to find out about all this rubbish when I came back, as far as I am concerned someone breaking into my house has put himself (or herself, or itself) outside of the protection of society and has no rights whatsover.

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Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2007, 11:43:46 AM »
Whether it's right or not morally; what you're saying is not right legally.  The castle doctrine laws are gone on most of the US or are gray areas at best.  Usually the law allows that you can't retreat any further than your own home and yet; the law also only gives a person the leeway to defend himself 'as much as needed to remove the threat'.  That's a huge gray area.


Huge negative there.  Castle Doctrine laws are in full force in TX, LA, MS and most of the South.  There are many states, (TX and LA I know, but others as well), that passed laws that not only absolve you of criminal charges in the case of a home invasion or burglary, but also give you total immunity from civil suits brought by the scumbag or his scumbag family. 

In TX, you have the Right, specifically enumerated in State Law, to use deadly force to stop a felony in progress, even if you are a third party observer.  That's right, since Burglary is a felony, I can shoot to kill over my property, and you better be sure I will.  Will I get involved in stopping a 7-11 holdup or a burglarization of a neighbor's home?  Probably not, but I'll d*mn sure shoot a trespasser on my land.

Sure, maybe my life isn't threatened by my TV being stolen, but it's called dignity and the right to live as a free and proud man, not being cowed or victimized by low-lifes and predators.  If you're not willing to defend that, then you really don't have anything worth defending, IMO. 

Offline oldfordguy

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2007, 11:44:06 AM »
gregimotos:
You are absolutely wrong about the Castle laws being gone in the US.  As a matter of fact, there has been a surge in new castle doctrine laws being passed throughout the US.  Most of them now say that you have no duty to retreat at all!  You have the right to defend yourself from bodily harm with lethal force anywhere that you legally have the right to be.  I know this as I have just completed all the necessary course work in self-defense law that was required to obtain my CCW permit. 

BobbyR:
I think you miss the point.  There is still a criminal out there preying on good citizens that you had the opportunity to stop (and you're a cop? no wonder we are in such bad shape!)  Also, you aren't supposed to wait until they are running away into the woods, pistols are not for threatening people with, they are for stopping their criminal activity. Now. Period. If the criminal doesn't survive being stopped, all the better for everyone.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2007, 11:44:16 AM »
Apart from the high fuel costs, the rain, the anti biking public, the cost of living, the reduction in our armed forces, the thought of a gadget on my bike which bills me for the journeys I take, travelling through Heathrow airport, no smoking laws, getting ripped off at the cost of race meetings, Wimbledon fortnight, this is just one of the many reasons why I and many other people are leaving the U.K.
100% of people who pay the ultimate price for a crime, don't do it again.

Well don't come here it will seem unpleasantly similiar. You could try New Hampshire, they take freedom seriously. Even seat belts are optional.  
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2007, 11:49:52 AM »
gregimotos:
You are absolutely wrong about the Castle laws being gone in the US.  As a matter of fact, there has been a surge in new castle doctrine laws being passed throughout the US.  Most of them now say that you have no duty to retreat at all!  You have the right to defend yourself from bodily harm with lethal force anywhere that you legally have the right to be.  I know this as I have just completed all the necessary course work in self-defense law that was required to obtain my CCW permit. 

BobbyR:
I think you miss the point.  There is still a criminal out there preying on good citizens that you had the opportunity to stop (and you're a cop? no wonder we are in such bad shape!)  Also, you aren't supposed to wait until they are running away into the woods, pistols are not for threatening people with, they are for stopping their criminal activity. Now. Period. If the criminal doesn't survive being stopped, all the better for everyone.
No you miss the point. I had no right to shoot him. If I could have held him I would have, but chasing him thought the woods butt naked did not seem an option. I made a lot of off duty arrests and all of them with my pants on.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline oldfordguy

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2007, 12:15:21 PM »
BobbyR brings up another valid point.  One reason it is important for the average citizen to fulfill their duty to society is the fact that our police have their hands so tied.  They have to make an arrest if at all possible, and usually cannot fire unless fired upon.  Regular citizens don't have these restrictions.  Citizens involved in a righteous shooting don't have to go through the hell that our officers do anytime they discharge their firearm.  And in a state that respects the rights (and obligations) of their law-abiding citizens (see GG's list above and add Kansas and South Dakota, the 17th state to pass a Castle Doctrine law in April of this year) the Castle Doctrine laws protect them from prosecution, including criminal & civil charges.

Offline S-Dog

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2007, 12:17:23 PM »
I love this thread  ;D
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Offline SteveD CB500F

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2007, 12:22:01 PM »
I can't believe that I actually posted on what's turned into a gun thread...

I feel the ghost of Heffay's delete button...
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upperlake04

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2007, 12:22:24 PM »
Sure, maybe my life isn't threatened by my TV being stolen, but it's called dignity and the right to live as a free and proud man, not being cowed or victimized by low-lifes and predators. 

 But surely GG, your TV isn't worth more than even a burglars life?  On the flip side, using your logic, what would the burglars (honest and law-abiding) family be entitled to do to you after you have killed him?  And to extend the idea, what would happen if everyone in a society did that?

Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2007, 12:29:30 PM »
Sure, maybe my life isn't threatened by my TV being stolen, but it's called dignity and the right to live as a free and proud man, not being cowed or victimized by low-lifes and predators. 

 But surely GG, your TV isn't worth more than even a burglars life?  On the flip side, using your logic, what would the burglars (honest and law-abiding) family be entitled to do to you after you have killed him?  And to extend the idea, what would happen if everyone in a society did that?

No, but my dignity is.  "Society" is held together by (un)spoken covenants.  One of them is that you don't victimize others, whether it is physically or against their property.  He forfeited his right to life when he initiated violence against me.  Theft is violence.

His family is entitled to nothing since HE violated the law and natural order, and HE paid the price.  They didn't do anything wrong, so they don't get punished, (though I would argue that they created (conceived) a criminal, and are just as liable as an automaker for building a defective car), conversely they did nothing good, so they get nothing.

What is so difficult about this?

Offline S-Dog

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2007, 12:30:37 PM »

And to extend the idea, what would happen if everyone in a society did that?

There would be a hell of a lot less burglars.  8)

I live in a town with virtually no crime.  WHY?  Because everyone owns guns.  It is not that amazing that burglars want as little trouble as possible. Getting shot is big trouble.
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Offline oldfordguy

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2007, 12:35:39 PM »
I have to disagree with GG on this point, his TV is worth more than the burglar's life.   As far as I'm concerned, a lump from my cat's litter box is worth more than a burglar's life.  And by coming into my house, the burglar has agreed with me.

upperlake04

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2007, 12:45:14 PM »
I have to disagree with GG on this point, his TV is worth more than the burglar's life.   As far as I'm concerned, a lump from my cat's litter box is worth more than a burglar's life.  And by coming into my house, the burglar has agreed with me.

  ;D  You guys are scary - a nation full of like-minded people could rule the world.  ;D ::) 8)

fuzzybutt

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2007, 01:04:14 PM »
florida and georgia have changed the law to favor the homeowner not sc yet. as far as guns i keep a loaded .357 right on my bedside table, wife keeps a loaded walther ppk with her.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2007, 01:10:27 PM »
But surely GG, your TV isn't worth more than even a burglars life

The burglar placed a value on his own life when he decided the TV was worth risking his life to take.
In the US, it is widely known that many many households contain guns and humans with a trigger finger.  Are you going to argue that the burglar wasn't apprised of the gun toting resident and his rights were violated because there were no posted signs or adequate physical restraints? 

On the flip side, using your logic, what would the burglars (honest and law-abiding) family be entitled to do to you after you have killed him? 
Oh this is rich.

So, then lets say the burglar takes your property, sells it and later gets caught for the crime.  Do we send the (honest and law abiding) family to jail, too?  Are they all liable to pay restitution?  Did the family get new shoes from the stolen property sale?

Frankly, I believe one must be held responsible for their own actions.  The "society is to blame" defense won't be needed once the individuals that corrupt it are removed.

And to extend the idea, what would happen if everyone in a society did that?
Did what?  Protected their lives and property and removed criminal elements from society?  I'm appalled you wouldn't want that.  What are you, an attorney? ;D ;D ;D
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2007, 01:10:34 PM »
I have to disagree with GG on this point, his TV is worth more than the burglar's life.   As far as I'm concerned, a lump from my cat's litter box is worth more than a burglar's life.  And by coming into my house, the burglar has agreed with me.

  ;D  You guys are scary - a nation full of like-minded people could rule the world.  ;D ::) 8)
Lake, we are a country of mostly like minded people. Yes, we could have ruled the world at the end of WWII. We are very friendly people. We are also very deadly. Mixed bag. Did you enjoy Chickenhawk?
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But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline gregimotis

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2007, 01:17:27 PM »
Quote
No, but my dignity is.  "Society" is held together by (un)spoken covenants.  One of them is that you don't victimize others, whether it is physically or against their property.  He forfeited his right to life when he initiated violence against me.  Theft is violence.

What is so difficult about this?

I think we are beginning to have two different conflicting conversations.  What is right and what will stand up in court are not always the same thing.

As for castle laws and states, I can't speak for state law in Texas etc.  I wouldn't want to bet ten years of my life that shooting a burglar in the back as he carried my T.V. out the door was going to be alright with a jury of my (who are these people anyway) based on a point of honor

I own weapons also, I'm not taking the side of the peacenik, I'm just saying that the law is not going to support vigilantism, even if it did seem justified at the time.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2007, 01:40:10 PM »
The infamous case of the farmer who shot the burglar and went to jail had a rather different background, as the guy shot a 16 year old in the back with a shotgun as he was climbing through a window. Even the gun totting amongst you would have to agree that that was a little extreme.

Not if the 16 year old was shouting for his friends outside to come help put down the occupants!  Burglars frequently have assistants in crime.

"Yes, officer there was a continuing threat.  Their were other voices and unusual noises outside.  I assumed the rest of his gang was waiting for him to gather and come back in larger force.  I had to whittle down the opposition, to minimize reload time."

If they are running away to regroup, they are still valid targets.
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Offline oldfordguy

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2007, 01:40:50 PM »
Gregimotis:
That is exactly what this is about, the fact that the "law" and the way it is applied is not right, and it needs to be changed to what is.  And as I said before, it is changing back for the better.  There are now only 2 US states left that don't recognize the right of citizens to protect themselves via concealed weapons, and more are passing "Castle Doctrine" laws all the time.  The fact that people are afraid to "do what is right" and fulfill their obligation to the rest of society because the laws are written to protect the criminals is the whole problem!
« Last Edit: August 10, 2007, 01:44:31 PM by oldfordguy »

Offline BobbyR

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2007, 01:50:56 PM »
That is exactly what this is about, the fact that the "law" and the way it is applied is not right, and it needs to be changed to what is.  And as I said before, it is changing back for the better.  There are now only 2 US states left that don't recognize the right of citizens to protect themselves via concealed weapons, and more are passing "Castle Doctrine" laws all the time.  The fact that people are afraid to "do what is right" and fulfill their obligation to the rest of society because the laws are written to protect the criminals is the whole problem!
Yes yes and yes. However, I have assets and I have insurance with full replacement coverage. I shoot some dickwad for a TV I may have made a statement, but I will be looking at $20K in lawyer bills. When I carried a badge, I was bound by the laws at that time. As a civilian I am bound by the laws and good sense. NY is turning to the right slowly, but as of now I am putting everything I own on the line for a TV set, or because I am pissed, nope not happening.
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Offline oldfordguy

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2007, 01:59:43 PM »
Well, I have to agree with you, I wouldn't take the chance in if I lived under socialist reign, either.  (One of several million reasons I would never live in NY.)  However, if my or a member of my family was in danger, I still prefer to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.  It depends on the situation.  It's like I've explained to many when discussing the child molestation/murder problem.  If someone molests/murders my child, they will get the death penalty.  I guarantee it.  As my grandfather always said: "We never needed any laws against child molestation.  If that happened, there was just a spot out in the corn field that grew a little taller and a little greener for a couple years."

Offline TwoTired

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Re: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2007, 02:06:15 PM »
florida and georgia have changed the law to favor the homeowner not sc yet. as far as guns i keep a loaded .357 right on my bedside table, wife keeps a loaded walther ppk with her.

Not to get on your case too much.

But, you just told all the burglars reading to wait till you are both away from home before breaking in and taking your guns and whatever else they might find.  Guns have far more value than your TV and are much easier to carry or fence.

At the very least, you told them to make your incapacitation the top priority after breaking in.  You just became a willing accomplice to their crime as a valuable information source.

Is bravado worth that?

Personally, I'd rather surprise the burglar than the burglar surprise me.

Cheers,

P.S. There's a lot to be said about keeping burglars and other miscreants from knowing which houses have gun owners and which don't.  Interviews with prison inmates have repeatedly pointed out that their biggest break in fear is that of a gun wielding occupant.  They know the police won't shoot them, if in some rare instance they are actually caught.  Non-gun households can actually benefit from this, if gun locations are kept a mystery.  Anti-gunners, mystifyingly ignore this benefit to society.
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