Topic: WTH is wrong with the Brits? This is ridiculous.

[upperlake04]

  Wasn't this about the British situation? You guys rattle easily

But surely GG, your TV isn't worth more than even a burglars life?
The burglar placed a value on his own life when he decided the TV was worth risking his life to take

 Most Western nations  consider vigilante executions for the crime of theft or trespass as  excessive.  Living in fear with loaded handguns beside his and hers nightstands doesn't seem to be synonymous with freedom and dignity to me.

On the flip side, using your logic, what would the burglars (honest and law-abiding) family be entitled to do to you after you have killed him?
Oh this is rich.

 Point missed TT.  I had wondered if its fair in the US to kill someone for stealing your TV, what would be fair to do to someone who kills your family member?

And to extend the idea, what would happen if everyone in a society did that?
Did what?  Protected their lives and property and removed criminal elements from society?  I'm appalled you wouldn't want that.  What are you, an attorney? Grin Grin Grin

 See above. I do. No   

Lake, we are a country of mostly like minded people. Yes, we could have ruled the world at the end of WWII. We are very friendly people. We are also very deadly. Mixed bag. Did you enjoy Chickenhawk?

  Bobby, I have noticed that. As individuals, Americans are  friendy, helpful and generous people but as a group and politicized..
Chickenhawk was great read, thanks.  No swaggering or posturing just the facts. My respect to those who were there.

[GroovieGhoulie]

Wasn't this about the British situation? You guys rattle easily

But surely GG, your TV isn't worth more than even a burglars life?
The burglar placed a value on his own life when he decided the TV was worth risking his life to take

 Most Western nations  consider vigilante executions for the crime of theft or trespass as  excessive.  Living in fear with loaded handguns beside his and hers nightstands doesn't seem to be synonymous with freedom and dignity to me.

But my state says it's cool, so....

As far as "living in fear", I'm not.  I got a gun, what do I have to be afraid of? 

[GroovieGhoulie]

Also, I did not mean this to become a gun thread, I just found the news article timely after the last self-defense thread and being a believer in self-defense and being equipped to protect myself, I found it VERY interesting how far the country of my ancestors has fallen.  I also use it as a warning, for in many cases, as goes England, the US will follow.  I hope I'm wrong, but in the long run, I fear I won't be.

I'm very positive on England, but lately the news coming out of there, and the reports from folks who live there, (like many who post here), are rather grim.

[edbikerii]

What's this "living in fear with a loaded handgun" crap?

[upperlake04]

What's this "living in fear with a loaded handgun" crap?

Ed - depends where you live. I live in a part of the world where a sense of  security doesn't require loaded guns at arms reach. You should really move to a more civilized place.    And to repeat what has been pointed out here before - if a heavily armed and loaded-ready to kill populace is such a deterent to crime, why don't the statistics show the US to have a low crime rate?

[TwoTired]

if a heavily armed and loaded-ready to kill populace is such a deterent to crime, why don't the statistics show the US to have a low crime rate?

Because you're reading the wrong statistics.  The drug crime is lumped into the big number.  Much of it non- violent.  Take that out of the numbers and the violent crime rate is very low.

Cheers,

[GeoffT]

I live in a town with virtually no crime.  WHY?  Because everyone owns guns.  It is not that amazing that burglars want as little trouble as possible. Getting shot is big trouble.

I live in a town with virtually no crime. WHY? Because no one owns guns.   

[Raul CB750K1]

I don't have any kind of weapon. I've never been assaulted, but even if I am, the cost of the gun, ammo, permit and training far more exceeds the money I carry in my wallet or the price of my watch.

I don't fear anybody breaking into my house because nobody wants to carry a 25inch CRT TV, and used appliances doesn't sell here anymore because you can buy them dirt cheap. Our community garage has been breaking into a couple of times. One of them my stereo was stolen, and it was stolen before on the street. The insurance covered the door repair and both stereos; now I have a used one bought on eBay for 50 euro. My wife doesn't have many jewels either, so there is nothing at home worth the effort to break into -it's not easy to break into a third-level appartment if it is not by the front door. All the bikes I have are considered "junk" and they didn't touch them -apart from removing the cover to see what was below- while a neighbour of mine was stolen a CBR900RR - twice!!!!


It's true that it sucks big time when you get to your car and find the lock destroyed. You just imagine arriving at the very first moment when the burglar is there. You could fight with him. Probably you win, but you win nothing: you had an stereo and you still have it, plus maybe some bruised knuckels.

You better win, because you never know what a burglar will do without anything to loose. In the best-case scenario you will end up with a broken nose, but you will keep your stereo. In this case you still don'w win anything and loose your nose. And it could be even worst.

If you get the burglar and you have a gun, you can scare the hell out of him. Still don't win anything but you loose the price of the weapon, ammo, training, and having to carry it 24 hours a day. If a worst-case scenario, the burglar would have another weapon and hurt you or kill you. You loose. If you kill him you still loose: the time you waste on the police station and on court far exceeds the price of the stereo and the new lock, even if you don't have insurance.


What works best for me is to have everything, but worst than everybody else. Sure it doesn't help for the swagger factor, but if you have enough self steem you can live with that and burglars will always steal somebody else's possessions.

If you think in the long term, TV's, stereos, even jewels, are just material things and we can't carry with us in the coffing. In 100 years we won't worry for them so they are not worth my life or somebody else's. I'm more concerned with the "cybercrime". Sometimes I think that all my savings are just numbers in some memory chip and somebody could break into and transfer it, and I wouldn't have any proof of ownership. My bank steals from me everytime I do anything by charging fees. I have to pay taxes everytime I buy or inherit a property.


But again, Spain is not US. I have to say that when I lived there I didn't feel any fear, but I didn't feel it here either.

[Terry in Australia]

Well I believe that whatever I find in my house must belong to me, right? So when I found a 16 year old girl rummaging through my belongings, rather than shoot her with one of my guns, I just kept her!

Man, it's great, Roxy, (as I call her) lives in a wooden box under my bed with some small holes drilled through so she can breathe, and when I want to exercise my right to use my property, I just drag her out of that box, and away I go, rodeo style!

Now don't get me wrong, I feed her once a day, (I found that 3 squares and no exercise was making her a bit "paunchy" and I like to keep my belongings in tip top condition so I reduced her rations) and I chuck her in the shower once or twice a week, if she behaves herself. Sometimes she doesn't, so I have to teach her who's boss, am I right?

Anyway I've grown quite fond of her, which is good, because of course I can never let her go, just imagine the shiite storm that all those "civil libertarians" would cause if I did, so yeah, maybe I shoulda just shot her when I caught her invading my sacred space, but hell, there's plenty of time for that later, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha................ 

[edbikerii]

I hate to break this to you, but your security rests squarely on the fact that everybody assumes you have a gun up in them parts.  You'd better have a gun for when Bigfoot comes a knockin'.

I'm sure it is quite nice where you live, but don't kid yourself.  Bored, broke drug addicts abound in rural areas.  At least in suburban NJ, the kids can get jobs and take a quick bus ride to the city when they get bored.

The last major crime we had in my town was a push-in "robbery" that happened a couple of years ago.  The whole town was in an uproar for weeks!  Upon further investigation it turned out to be an "acquaintance" of the kid who decided to throw a party when his parents were away on vacation.  Somebody broke his parent's stereo so he tried to claim it was stolen during the "robbery".

Every week they publish the "police blotter" in the local newspaper here.  Endless listings of "animal complaints" (dogs barking), domestic disputes (got those in Sasketoon, I'll bet), and drivers with cell phones.

Sorry to disappoint, but nobody here is "living in fear".

What's this "living in fear with a loaded handgun" crap?

Ed - depends where you live. I live in a part of the world where a sense of  security doesn't require loaded guns at arms reach. You should really move to a more civilized place.    And to repeat what has been pointed out here before - if a heavily armed and loaded-ready to kill populace is such a deterent to crime, why don't the statistics show the US to have a low crime rate?

[oldfordguy]

The Doctor, his wife, and daughter in conneticut didn't live in fear either.  They lived in a quiet little place that had no crime.  And they weren't prepared, either, when evil came to their door.

Ask yourself this question:  Do you have a spare tire in your car?  How often do you have a flat and need it? But if or when you do, you sure are glad you "wasted" the trunk space, huh?

[Joel]

It works both ways. While it's been taken to the extreme in favor of the criminals, the opposite could also happen.  A TV is not worth a life, even that of a criminal.  If he's running away with your stuff, fire a warning shot.  If he pulls a gun on you, it's a different story but I can't agree with shooting an unarmed man.

[BobbyR]

gregimotos:
You are absolutely wrong about the Castle laws being gone in the US.  As a matter of fact, there has been a surge in new castle doctrine laws being passed throughout the US.  Most of them now say that you have no duty to retreat at all!  You have the right to defend yourself from bodily harm with lethal force anywhere that you legally have the right to be.  I know this as I have just completed all the necessary course work in self-defense law that was required to obtain my CCW permit. 

BobbyR:
I think you miss the point.  There is still a criminal out there preying on good citizens that you had the opportunity to stop (and you're a cop? no wonder we are in such bad shape!)  Also, you aren't supposed to wait until they are running away into the woods, pistols are not for threatening people with, they are for stopping their criminal activity. Now. Period. If the criminal doesn't survive being stopped, all the better for everyone.

You got me to thinking about that incident, Maybe I should have shot to kill. So, once the Sheriff arrives and the IDs the body, we find out:

He is a local guy who is one of the several Town drunks, he wandered around and wound up at the wrong house. He saw a man pointing a gun at him so he panics and tries to flee because he is scared. He will not be going to his kids School play, Football games or weddings. In effect I have shot and killed a harmless trespasser with no evil intentions. I was trained over and over again when to shoot and when not to. I have no problem with private gun ownership and greatly support it. What I see here scares me a bit and I hope what I am seeing is a passion for a better society and not intent. As I said in an earlier post, killing people is not easy for a normal person. Oh the killing is easy, afterwards is hard.

[gregimotis]

Good post BobbyR.



I think I might bow out of this thread... maybe later I'll put some synthetic oil in my bike and post some nudie pics somewhere...

[neil young]

here in Canada owning a hand gun is practically illegal.to own any kind of hunting rifle is paper work out the whazzo.i watched bowling for columbine recently.i think the director does an excellent job of showing the difference in life styles between Canada and the USA in relation to crime and guns.people here literally do leave there doors unlocked at all times.i live in Toronto (a fair size city)and my worries are minimal.now this thing that happened in england is a bit much.i don't agree with charging the victim (this case obviously the home owner)..........seems a wee bit odd

[oldbiker]

Forget about guns. Here in the UK, if you surprise a burglar and chase him out of your house, punching as you go, the police WILL charge you with assault. This is the problem which started this thread. I don't want to kill a burglar but I want to be able to protect my family and property without the CERTAINTY of being charged with a criminal offence. A burglar should automatically have NO civil rights.

[Raul CB750K1]

here in Canada owning a hand gun is practically illegal.to own any kind of hunting rifle is paper work out the whazzo.i watched bowling for columbine recently.i think the director does an excellent job of showing the difference in life styles between Canada and the USA in relation to crime and guns.people here literally do leave there doors unlocked at all times.i live in Toronto (a fair size city)and my worries are minimal.now this thing that happened in england is a bit much.i don't agree with charging the victim (this case obviously the home owner)..........seems a wee bit odd

If you have emule get yourself a documentary titled "Michael Moore hates America". Turns out that the banks doesn't have the rifles there, and so many canadians keep their doors open.

My uncle used to be a security guard and he always said that "you can get out of the jail, but not out of the grave". He was certain he would have to use his weapon if he needed to. One day in the factory where he worked, some people tried to break in. Can't remember whether it was one or more, but his jobmate killed him. My uncle had to take some time off because he got in a depression after seeing that guy killed, and he didn't even pull the trigger.

[edbikerii]

Again, you are comparing apples to oranges.  In downtown Montreal you'd be a fool to leave your door open.  I've been there.  The last time I was in Montreal the police had posted signs up on most streetlamps about fighting the drugs and gun violence perpetrated by the Hells Angels.  I've seen the many young, homeless, drug addicts wandering around Montreal using "aggressive pan-handling techniques" to practically mug citizens on their way to work.  I couldn't believe the Montreal cops let those bums get away with that, and I'm from NYC.  I feel 100% safer walking around in Midtown Manhattan than I did in many parts of Montreal.  In fact, I even felt safer on the streets of Rio DeJaneiro in the middle of the night than I did in some parts of Montreal.

Of course, one wouldn't feel so safe walking around Hunts Point in the Bronx, or Bedford-Stuyvesant, Brooklyn.

On the other hand, I'm sure in many suburban and rural areas you'd feel comfortable with leaving your door unlocked, just as most Americans do.

If you think of Michael Moore as a documentary-maker, then you really need to get out more.  He's got an axe to grind, and must sensationalize in order to stimulate profits.

here in Canada owning a hand gun is practically illegal.to own any kind of hunting rifle is paper work out the whazzo.i watched bowling for columbine recently.i think the director does an excellent job of showing the difference in life styles between Canada and the USA in relation to crime and guns.people here literally do leave there doors unlocked at all times.i live in Toronto (a fair size city)and my worries are minimal.now this thing that happened in england is a bit much.i don't agree with charging the victim (this case obviously the home owner)..........seems a wee bit odd

[BobbyR]

Good post BobbyR.



I think I might bow out of this thread... maybe later I'll put some synthetic oil in my bike and post some nudie pics somewhere...

Now that is a plan I can get behind!  My favorite concealed weapon is a nicely shaped pair of C cups.

[fuzzybutt]

oh well, i was wrong. according to another member here we do now have a "no retreat" law here in sc.

[mark]

I have forgotten most of whatever I thought I knew about specifics of the British system. Too long since Rumpole was on the telly i suppose. We should make our lawyers wear those wigs.

Here in the good ol' U.S. of A. the lawyers on both sides can shovel whatever fertilizer they wish, the judge is a referee to keep some order, and it falls to those twelve good citizens of THE JURY to make sense of it all.

If there is no sense in those twelve, thugs will become victims and self-defense will be punished.

Same for civil cases. Kill the thug - the family sues. Got that part. THE JURY decides whether (a)they just won the lotto. or (b)sorry about your thug but he really was worthless - shut up and get a life.
Coffee Lady v. McDonalds? THE JURY decided that HER spillin' a cuppa Joe on her privates was worth millions.

Want to fix the broken system? Start by fixing the broken jury.

Why is it that juries seem to be filled with folks that 'weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty'?

It's boring. I'm too important at the office. Who is gonna take care of the kids. I can't pay the bills with $15 a day. #3 needs clean socks and #11 wears bad perfume. Get over it.

If you are not part of the solution then you must be part of the problem.


<end rant>

Happy trails.

[Terry in Australia]

Good rant mate, but are all burglars "thugs"? Over here in Oz it's more often school kids playing truant and coming in thru an unlocked window to find whatever cash or valuables they can steal to finance their unauthorised day off.

I'm not sure that you could convince a jury of your peers that an unarmed 90 pound 14 year old, was threatening the life of a 200 pound 50 year old, armed with a .45 auto? What's that term again, "reasonable force"? 

[mark]

Good rant mate, but are all burglars "thugs"?

Yes.

Over here in Oz it's more often school kids playing truant and coming in thru an unlocked window to find whatever cash or valuables they can steal to finance their unauthorised day off.

Over here it's meth freaks intent on rape and plunder. The cash buys drugs.

I'm not sure that you could convince a jury of your peers that an unarmed 90 pound 14 year old, was threatening the life of a 200 pound 50 year old, armed with a .45 auto? What's that term again, "reasonable force"? 

True. That would be a caution against 'trigger-happy-ness'. Also not a good idea to rig the window with shotgun-and-fishline 'burglar alarm'.

Unfortunately, holding the unarmed 14 year old 'against his free will' until the cops arrive is often called 'false imprisonment' and will also land you in trouble.

Unfortunately for Oz, merely HAVING that .45 will get you in nearly as much trouble as USING it. But that's another thread for another forum.

Happy trails.

[Terry in Australia]

[quote author=madmark73

Unfortunately for Oz, merely HAVING that .45 will get you in nearly as much trouble as USING it. But that's another thread for another forum.

Happy trails.
[/quote]

Thanks Mark, my neighbour is a pistol shooter, he's got 12 registered handguns, and his brother has 69! I've got a few old rifles and shotguns, but the only one I've fired in the last few years is my great-great grandfathers black powder shotgun last year, just to get rid of some old ammo .

Then again, I've got an armoury full of machine guns, assault rifles, pistols and anti-armour weapons at work, so I guess thats a moot point. Cheers, Terry.

[Raul CB750K1]

just to get rid of some old ammo .

Couldn't you just toss it away?