Author Topic: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?  (Read 7806 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Patrick

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,398
Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« on: August 10, 2007, 06:32:34 AM »
This may be a basic question, but as my scientific knowledge is sowmehat lacking I was looking for some advice.

Here in Central Texas it gets very hot in the summer. While this year has been cool by our standards, triple digits are common. I commute to work on my K5 750 (25 miles each way) almost every day when it isn't raining. Traffic in Austin can be a pain and crawling along on the highway at 10 to 15 mph is, sadly, not uncommon. I know that idling my bike is the fastest way to overhead it, but it would seem to me low speed driving with little air flowing over the cooling fins would be a close second.

That leads to my question. Is is better to crawl in a higher gear at a lower rpm to prevent overheating, or to go with a higher rpm and a lower gear.

All moving parts generate friction, no matter how good your lubrication is. So, at first blush, I figured lugging the engine a little would be better, since lower rpm means the parts are moving slower and less friction is generated. At the same time, however, lower rpm moves less air through the engine, and possibly more heat is building up inside. Higher rpm would create more friction, but move more air through the engine.

Or it may make no difference. I have a lot of time to think for 25 miles at 10 mph.

Patrick
1970 CB750 K0
1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
1969 Yamaha DT1B
etc.

Offline Bob Wessner

  • "Carbs Suck!"
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,079
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2007, 06:49:02 AM »
I've wondered the same thing myself, so I'll watch for other's input. My own thoughts are lugging is bad. The oil is hot and thin and "lugging" might actually increase the possibility of internal engine surface contact. If that theory holds any water at all :-\, it would seem to me some moderate RPM and spin would be better.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline BobbyR

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,365
  • Proud Owner of the Babe Thread & Dirty Old Man
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2007, 07:56:53 AM »
Well I think that when you talk about RPMs moving air through the engine, you are thinking water cooled. The only thing that moves air around our motors is forward motion.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Patrick

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,398
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2007, 08:02:42 AM »
By moving air, I actually was thinking of the action of the pistons pushing hot air through the exhaust, which I assumed also helped reduce internal heat. Lower rpm, less pressure through the exhaust...

Patrick
1970 CB750 K0
1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
1969 Yamaha DT1B
etc.

Offline Bodi

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,702
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2007, 08:11:33 AM »
For a given engine power, ie whatever is needed for 15mph, I don't think the difference would be noticeable. I've noticed that shifting gears at low speed while holding the throttle steady doesn't change the speed much at all. I would think higher RPM would make more heat, I don't know if you're really moving more air through or just firing a smaller (higher vacuum) charge more often. I guess some research with a temperature probe on the head is required.
About all you could do is richen the mixture a bit for somewhat cooler running. Or just motor down the shoulder at 30mph...

Offline Seyser

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2007, 09:00:52 AM »
Im no expert but id say its a toss up, On an air cooled engine I dont think it would make a differance one way or another. I dont think you will notice without diagnostic tools.

You could argue that higher rpm's will create more heat but at the same time lower rpm's and lugging/working the engine is creating hotter egt's which would probably create the same amount of heat as a higher piston speed.

Again im no expert but just my$.02
-Jeremy

Offline kslrr

  • There is always a Blaster when there is a
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,542
  • Raising her up right!
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2007, 09:52:45 AM »
Like Seyser says, without diagnostic tools there is no way to realy know.  One thought is that the oil also helps transfer heat away from critical parts.  At higher rpm's then, more oil is circulating through the engine, filter, tank and back again dumping heat as it goes.

On my '04 HD 883, the engine cooling was improved by spraying the bottom of the pistons with oil.  I do not know if Honda did this with the SOHC's.
Now  1972 CB350FX (experimental v2.0)
        1981 CB650c Custom with '79 engine (wifes)
        1981 CB650 engine
        2004 HD XL883C Custom
        1977 Yamaha XS750D (in progress)
Then 1972 CL175
        1964 Yamaha YGS-1T
No ride is a Bad ride

Offline rhinoracer

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 664
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2007, 09:58:33 AM »
Let's see:

More revs:
+ More cooling oil splashing to bottom of piston.
+ More airflow thru exhaust valve guides.
+ More cool fuel/air splashing to intake valves
+ More oil thru bearings
+ Hot gas remains less time in exhaust

- More combustion cycles
- More hot gas moving thru exhaust
- More friction heat

That said, most of the cooling on air cooled engines comes from heat dissipation thru cooling fins, so all the aforementioned pros represent a very small portion of an engine's combustion cooling.

Imagine a switched radiator fan blowing thru the cooling fins. That would cool down the heads in a hurry, much better than oil-splashing/fuel-mixture/exhaust flow can in idling situations. If you agree with this statement you'll realize revving the engine will do very little to help cool the engine with no measurable difference worth burning the extra fuel.

Baja native.

Offline jdpas29

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 251
  • my bike is 100% sandcast!!
    • My band = white bread
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2007, 10:02:43 AM »
highest speed lowest rpm = cooler motor is my guess

within reason.. you don't want the rpms so low that the bike is bogging but if you can get your rpms down while moving more air around the motor, that's going to be the best.
cars are gay.

Offline paulages

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,876
  • 1976 cb735
    • DOOMTOWN RIDERS P.R.M.C.
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2007, 10:08:22 AM »
i'd say jetting plays a big role. the 550 for example was jetted pretty rich at idle to enable easy starts. if your RPM's are low enough that the idle circuit is dominant, i'd wager the cooling effect of the rich mixture could be significant. my bike definitely heats up more at higher RPM's, but i'm not totally stock.
paul
SOHC4 member #1050

1974 CB550 (735cc)
1976 CB550 (590cc) road racer
1973 CB750K3
1972 NORTON Commando Combat
1996 KLX650 R

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,802
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2007, 10:45:18 AM »
The engine heats primarily from the energy fed to it, I.E the fuel. 
About 60-80 % of the fuel energy consumed by the engine is expended as waste heat. 
The more fuel is fed to the engine, the more heat is generated.
The engine draws more fuel at higher RPM than low RPM.
It therefore produces less heat at lower RPM.

Frictional heat factors.
Press the palms of your hands together and saw them back and forth slowly.
Now repeat the experiment with your hands moving very rapidly.
Rubbing parts at increased speed create more heat.  Would you agree?
The same effect applies to metal parts moving against each other.

I maintain that the SOHC4 engine is NOT significantly cooled by the oil in an absorptive mode.  (Though the oil's lubricative abilities, and friction reducing properties, at high temps do come into question.)  The SOHC4 is primarily cooled by air moving past heated external components.  This area is maximized by the cooling fin area.

The heat is transferred into the surrounding air.  It does so at a rate relative to the temperature differential.    This is to say that if the air immediately adjacent to the metal surface is the same temperature, no heat will be transferred.  The more temperature differential that exists between the two materials, the more rapidly the heat energy can be transferred.

Air cooled motors require replacement of the heated air adjacent to the cooling surfaces in order to keep the transfer of heat going away from the engine, instead of storing it in the metal components until something cooler gets near the surfaces.

Almost any airflow over the cooling fins is better than none.  If it is a hot day and I can feel the engine is hot, and I will be waiting at a stop light, I'll turn the engine OFF.  Then, I will electric start the bike when or just before it is time to move forward.  At slow speeds, I'll keep the engine in the power band because of traffic concerns.  That power is a traffic evasion ally.  And, I would prefer to repair or replace the engine/motorcycle, than personal bits of anatomy.  But, I am selfish that way...

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline kghost

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,853
  • www.facebook.com/RetroMecanicaAustralia
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2007, 12:08:42 PM »
I agree with twotired up to a point....

I tend to believe that oil does contribute to heat transfer.

I believe this because I've measuered the oil temp with and without an oil cooler.

Background....

I live in south texas about 250 miles south of you. So I understand the problem associated with the heat. Its hot here too.

I don't have too much problems with a stock engine however with a 836 kit theres just too much heat.

You've removed metal from the engine, increased its displacement (more fuel = more heat as twotired said) and bumped up compression. All lead to more heat in the engine.

When I measured the oil temp with a J type thermocouple sans oil cooler oil temp was in the 120 degree C. range.

With a cooler the oil now runs about 90 C.

This is all at about 34-38 degrees C ambient air flow.

while I have yet to measure actual cylinder temps with and without an oil cooler...there is a noticable difference in engine temperature (cooler) with the oil cooler installed.

Course a cooler is a moot point at Zero airflow as TwoTired said.

But even a little bit of additional cooling helps. Engine oil does carry heat.


Stranger in a strange land

Offline Bodain

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 519
  • I love the smell of fresh asphalt in the morning!
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2007, 12:28:36 PM »
I find your question amusing... The reason why is... I have a 2001 Kawasaki ZRX 1200R which is water cooled. This is my number 1 ride. When the temps rise to 100 plus the heat coming off the engine is almost unbearable.

Long ago I discovered the old Honda CB air cooled engine is a much cooler ride than the newer water bikes. When the temps go up. The CB sees more use.
2009 Suzuki TU250
2014 Honda Grom
1988 Yamaha FZ600
2018 Honda Ruckus
1971 Honda CB500
1979 Kawasaki Z750 Twin

Offline BobbyR

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,365
  • Proud Owner of the Babe Thread & Dirty Old Man
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2007, 01:41:25 PM »
I agree with twotired up to a point....

I tend to believe that oil does contribute to heat transfer.

I believe this because I've measuered the oil temp with and without an oil cooler.

Background....

I live in south texas about 250 miles south of you. So I understand the problem associated with the heat. Its hot here too.

I don't have too much problems with a stock engine however with a 836 kit theres just too much heat.

You've removed metal from the engine, increased its displacement (more fuel = more heat as twotired said) and bumped up compression. All lead to more heat in the engine.

When I measured the oil temp with a J type thermocouple sans oil cooler oil temp was in the 120 degree C. range.

With a cooler the oil now runs about 90 C.

This is all at about 34-38 degrees C ambient air flow.

while I have yet to measure actual cylinder temps with and without an oil cooler...there is a noticable difference in engine temperature (cooler) with the oil cooler installed.

Course a cooler is a moot point at Zero airflow as TwoTired said.

But even a little bit of additional cooling helps. Engine oil does carry heat.




I would agree with KNG that given a larger surface area to radiate heat, the oil would act as a cooling medium. I have a K8 and my side covers are solid. In the earlier models they louvers which may have acted to help cool the oil in the tank rather than being just cosmetic. These engiines have a large oil capcity for their size. Roughly 4 quarts for 736 ccs vs 5 Quarts for a 5.0 litre V8.
Having said that, they do not like standing still very long in hot weather.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

eldar

  • Guest
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2007, 02:03:50 PM »
One of the benefits of oil IS heat removal. Oil is the inner component to cooling.

Anyways, more surface area will also increase cooling. That is fact. If you need proof, look at ANYTHING that uses a heatsink(which is what cooling fins are) and you will see that more surface area cools better. So if you add and oil cooler that has a radiator, it will gain a small amount of additional cooling however negligible it may be.

Offline edbikerii

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,128
    • Gallery
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2007, 02:39:50 PM »
Sticking to the subject at hand, the engine definitely runs cooler at lower RPMs.  I've measured it after two similar runs, one where I stayed out of the throttle as much as I could, and another where I enjoyed the ride more.  Differences were about 30-40F.

Oil, oil coolers, etc. are a whole different subject.
SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
1986 GL1200I - SOLD
2004 BMW R1150R

Jetting: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg258435#msg258435
Needles:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg253711#msg253711

Offline toycollector10

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,134
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2007, 03:07:06 PM »
A higher engine rpm with throttle slightly cracked and not loaded may increase the cooling effect.

The air/fuel mix at 14 to one does in fact aid cooling prior to it being ignited. So shifting a lot of air through the cylinders versus not a lot of air through the cylinders is a factor. Lets pass it on to the guys who do the urban legends thing on TV?
1969  CB 750 K0
1973  CB175
1973  Z1 Kawasaki

Offline Joel

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 718
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2007, 07:29:23 PM »
What about one or more small, electric cooling fans blowing air over the cylinders?

Offline Patrick

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,398
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2007, 07:34:11 PM »
I was wondering about mounting a couple of 12-volt computer case cooling fans on the frame somehow. Do you think if they were properly mounted that that might have some effect? I use two of those fans for the exhaust for my powder coating booth, so they do move some air.

1970 CB750 K0
1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
1969 Yamaha DT1B
etc.

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,063
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2007, 08:29:04 PM »
Well, I think Honda simply did a stellar job with this particular engine (750), myself. I rode for 14 years in all weather, heavy traffic, etc., with Vetter fairing AND lowers enclosing the engine. I even toured the desert southwest in August that way with my brother on his 500 (similarly equipped), and his overheated and died in Phoenix 110+ degree traffic, mine just got hard to shift. Never another whimper or complaint, until ethanol-enhanced fuels came along: now it boils in the carbs if I do this, so I ride lowers only in cool weather.

I have seen this engine with 1000cc kits added, with the fins resleeved so big that only 1/4" of fin was left: no problems. I have seen the oil temps on my own 750 hit 260 degrees: no complaints (20w50 Castrol oil). In last summer's teardown (at 112,000 miles on the bottom end), I mic'ed the crank and it showed only 0.0008" wear in all of that, which included a lot of abuse at 14000 RPM when I raced it: still this same crank. The bearing clearance on the mains is 0.0018", on the rods the worst one is 0.0021". Stock is 0.0008"-0.0012", wear limit 0.0032".

The only effects I have seen from hot, slow traffic is wear on the center 2 cam bearings. Honda jetted the upper oil passages to force oil to the crank before the top end, which results in oil starvation in the center 2 cam bearings in heavy, hot traffic. This often shows up as false "cam chain noise", which is really cam flex, making the cam chain flutter at low engine speeds. Typically, these bearings have more than 0.008" clearance after only 30,000 miles. Mine are at 0.012" now.

All that said, there is one thing you must never do with any of these I-4 engines: heavy throttle openings in higher gears at low engine speeds in hot, heavy traffic. This WILL put metal-to-metal together in the crankshaft, at the rods, top side bearing. So, for my two cents' worth, stick with some more RPM. I use the 15 MPH rule, myself: out of 1st at 15, out of 2nd at 30, out of 3rd at 45 as a minimum.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline smccloud

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 340
    • Shaun's blog
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2007, 09:41:55 PM »

I would agree with KNG that given a larger surface area to radiate heat, the oil would act as a cooling medium. I have a K8 and my side covers are solid. In the earlier models they louvers which may have acted to help cool the oil in the tank rather than being just cosmetic. These engiines have a large oil capcity for their size. Roughly 4 quarts for 736 ccs vs 5 Quarts for a 5.0 litre V8.
Having said that, they do not like standing still very long in hot weather.


what earlier bikes are you talking about?  i have a k2 and it has solid side covers.  it is my only motorcycle, and i ride 15 miles one way to work (kinda sucks to have a leaking head gasket when you wear kakhi dress pants to work).  i know my bike is getting to hot when it starts to idle at 2000+ when it normally idles around 1000-1500, and it is jetted rich right now too.  then again, when i first get it out or put it away for the season it can be hovering around 50 degrees (gotta love mn weather).  this winter i plan to pull the engine out, rebuild it (possibly with an 836 kit) and then keep riding the thing.  tonight i got more "nice bike" comments than i ever have in one day.  had a guy on a honda vfr say that i have a nicer bike than he does; although he did admit that his is faster.
CB750 K2

Quote from: Hush
Who needs a mobility scooter when you've got a SOHC4?

Gun/Cars/Motorcycles/Computers/Insert Next Expensive Hobby here

Offline Joel

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 718
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2007, 11:56:44 PM »
I was wondering about mounting a couple of 12-volt computer case cooling fans on the frame somehow. Do you think if they were properly mounted that that might have some effect? I use two of those fans for the exhaust for my powder coating booth, so they do move some air.

Those type of fans are what came to my mind.  They're small and have relatively low current draw.  With some good planning, I'll bet they'd barely be noticeable.

eldar

  • Guest
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2007, 09:36:29 AM »
What about MN weather? A warm engine will get a higher rpm than a cool engine. Just turn down your idle screw and while the engine is cool, blip the throttle. However most of the issue you are having is cause the bike is running rich. Tune it and it will warm faster and hold better idle.

As for computer fans, I do not think they will do squat. Reason being is that there is no ducting and if you put on ducting, then you would disrupt normal airflow which would just reduce the benefits anyways. It is a good idea but I think the implementing would not work.

With all the work it might take, you might have better luck making a water jacket for the fins and using a radiator and electrical water pump. Since the jacket would be metal, it would still work for air cooling and we all know the benefits of water cooling.

Offline smccloud

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 340
    • Shaun's blog
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2007, 09:51:24 AM »
What about MN weather? A warm engine will get a higher rpm than a cool engine. Just turn down your idle screw and while the engine is cool, blip the throttle. However most of the issue you are having is cause the bike is running rich. Tune it and it will warm faster and hold better idle.

As for computer fans, I do not think they will do squat. Reason being is that there is no ducting and if you put on ducting, then you would disrupt normal airflow which would just reduce the benefits anyways. It is a good idea but I think the implementing would not work.

With all the work it might take, you might have better luck making a water jacket for the fins and using a radiator and electrical water pump. Since the jacket would be metal, it would still work for air cooling and we all know the benefits of water cooling.

i would love to retune the carbs, but i need jets to do that.  and i can't turn down the idle screw much more, when i put hondaman's ignition box in i had to turn it down just about all the way.  i think i just need to rebuild the engine and start "fresh"
CB750 K2

Quote from: Hush
Who needs a mobility scooter when you've got a SOHC4?

Gun/Cars/Motorcycles/Computers/Insert Next Expensive Hobby here

Offline BobbyR

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,365
  • Proud Owner of the Babe Thread & Dirty Old Man
Re: Which is better when hot, high or low rpm?
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2007, 05:37:07 PM »

I would agree with KNG that given a larger surface area to radiate heat, the oil would act as a cooling medium. I have a K8 and my side covers are solid. In the earlier models they louvers which may have acted to help cool the oil in the tank rather than being just cosmetic. These engiines have a large oil capcity for their size. Roughly 4 quarts for 736 ccs vs 5 Quarts for a 5.0 litre V8.
Having said that, they do not like standing still very long in hot weather.


what earlier bikes are you talking about?  i have a k2 and it has solid side covers.  it is my only motorcycle, and i ride 15 miles one way to work (kinda sucks to have a leaking head gasket when you wear kakhi dress pants to work).  i know my bike is getting to hot when it starts to idle at 2000+ when it normally idles around 1000-1500, and it is jetted rich right now too.  then again, when i first get it out or put it away for the season it can be hovering around 50 degrees (gotta love mn weather).  this winter i plan to pull the engine out, rebuild it (possibly with an 836 kit) and then keep riding the thing.  tonight i got more "nice bike" comments than i ever have in one day.  had a guy on a honda vfr say that i have a nicer bike than he does; although he did admit that his is faster.
I have only seen them in pictures, it looks like louvers to me.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?