Author Topic: 750 Tuning Advice  (Read 2256 times)

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Offline jmckinne

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750 Tuning Advice
« on: August 17, 2007, 06:58:15 PM »
I've had a '74 750 for a couple weeks now, I've run thru a few things and she's much better but not all the way home yet. Before I take any shots in the dark thot I'd ask the experts :)

As far as I know everything on the bike is stock. Carbs, airbox, cam, bores, etc. When I got it the bike:

1) Will not idle at start for 4-5 minutes. Idle is rough at all times and can't be left unattended no matter how warmed up.
2) Hunts for idle as warming continues. Shoots from < 1K to >2500K. Must use idle speed set screw to adjust - constantly.
3) Low power thoughout throttle curve.
4) Bike is WAY to tender at low RPM. Will not even take off at < 2500 RPM - stalls. Cruises @ 3.2k so 25K way to high for starting out.
5) Pinging in exhaust note of #3 or #4.
6) Varnish on both sides of engine - gas leaks.

I did this:

1) Set valve clearances. Cyl #3 slightly intake out, not much ~.002". #3 exhaust out about the same amount. #2 intake out .001".
2) Set point gaps (both sets). Points OK, but 2-3 gap out .003"
3) Set timing (static). 2-3 was out 8 degrees, 1-4 fine. Did not do dwell or dynamic timing.
4) Changed plugs. 1 & 4 looked lean. 2 looked normal. 3 looked unused - ouch didn't like that. Piece of carbon between electrode and conductor otherwise very clean - TOO clean.
5) Rebuilt carbs with full kits, set floats. The kit included all factory needles and jets btw. I did a bench sync only, but ordered a four place sync tool.

Number 3 did turn out ot be OK btw.

After that she idled steadily but still roughly, started hard but did not leak. She had much more power, but had some large flat spots going from mid-high speed.

So I...

1) Moved the needles to 2nd from the bottom, off of the middle (factory) position. I found them in the second from bottom btw, but thought with the rebuild they should go back to factory.

2) Used my new sync tool.

After that she started and idled great but I had to have the airscrews at 1/2 turn at most and she would have liked them all the way in too. I was uncomfortable running her with that thin a "potential" mixture, wanted here closer to the factory (1 turn) setting. Also the flat spots were better but not gone. I don't think there was any stumbling. The reading for #3 cylinder on the sync gauge was troubling. She would sync fine at idle with the others, but goose the throttle and the others vacuum readings went up, but 3 didn't.

At this point I gave a serious eyballing to the boots and clamps. The boots did not reveal any leaks at idle and were nice and supple. But... they appeared to be somewhat loose on both the head and the carb side (the airbox boots too btw). The clamps were all maxed out but I could still wiggle the boots on the engine. I thought it was enough that some leakage could occur, especially at high RPM, like my flat spots.

So off came the carbs again :) This time I put the needles back to factory and then used regular (radiator type) hose clamps to hold all the boot joints. It is as beautiful as you'd expect, but I have NO leaks I'm sure of that.

What I got was:

1) #3 vacuum readings match the others now (yay) she was just leaking at the boots it's seems.
2) Hard starting.
3) Very litle reaction to airscrew settings. 1 turn out is fine, 1/2 turn maybe a titch better if at all.
4) Sensitivity to starting at lower RPM is back. Wants to start out at 2.0K. I like to roll out from 1.5k, all my other bikes do.
5) Mild flat spots @ around 45 MPH and just the slightest hesitation when gunned from there.
6) After 5 minutes of driving it runs/idles steadily, with the above notes tho.


That's where I'm at.

The bike has the original 4-4 pipes on it (yay) but the innards are toast on at least some of them I'm sure. I covered some rust thrus on the exteriors with metal tape just to help the back pressure some, but it's not like having the baffles in good shape.


I'm sure tuning would be easier if the pipes in new, but can I work around them somewhat? Are there tuning tricks I can use to simulate full, stock back pressure? Am I mising something else I should be looking for?

I'm considering taking the carbs BACK off and going to the bottom needle setting, probably keeping my scenic radiator clamps unless someone tells me that movable boots are fine.

Thx in advance guys!


USN20

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Re: 750 Tuning Advice
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2007, 09:49:21 PM »
Welcome to the forums!  I also own a stock '74 CB750 also purchased used and a couple of thoughts come to mind ...

How is the condition of your spark plug caps? If they are old and tired consider replacing them. New ones are available from Honda and NGK. If nothing else, remove your spark plug caps and trim 1/4" of old wire off and re-install for a nice tight connection.

If you have doubts about your manifold boot condition, consider replacing them as you don't want any air leaks. I'm using these clamps: http://www.cb750cafe.com/parts.php?id=55

The airbox-to-carb connectors should be pliable & air tight, stock Honda clamps are OK.

I'm at sea level, needles in the middle position, running #40 slow jets and #105 mains with the stock Honda paper air filter and NGK D8EA plugs. Average fuel mileage is 45 mpg with stock 18/48 gearing.

Are you using stock Honda air bleed screws? Aftermarket ones are sometimes mis-drilled. (ask me how I know)

Are the floats set to 26mm and all the emulsion tube holes clean & clear?

Is the fuel system clean, free & clear and the gas cap vent working?

The condition of your stock 4-4 exhaust probably does have an effect on your tuning. How much? I don't know. Otherwise it looks like you're on the right track to getting the bike sorted out.


Offline jmckinne

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Re: 750 Tuning Advice
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2007, 10:18:44 PM »
Thx USN, like your clamps. Are they thin like the stockers? My auto store ones are a bit wide, adds to the bad looks...

To answer your questions:

1) My boots seem good to me, just not clamped well enough. Are the clamp groves at each end molded in or have mine just been deformed in? The rubber is soft, non-oxidised, crack free and basically looks "good". I'm not a vulcanologist, but it "looks ok" if you know what I mean. I did wonder if the "clamp grooves" are supposed to be there (or be as deep as they are) tho?
2) Im at about 750 feet (Minneapolis). I've got #40 primaries and #110 mains, again the stock jets -  all new. The emulsion tubes are not new as they don't come in the carb rebuild kits I got. I cleaned and blew them out as best I could. Floats are 26mm from float bowl gasket rim. That measurement is with the float touching but not depressing in any way the float needle. I took these measurements viewing the carb from the side.
3) Plugs and air filter are new and stock.
4) Air screws are new and came in the kits. Looked like the factories to the naked eye. I was checking that they had a hole in them. Heard some didn't, mine did.

New inline fuel filters fitted but haven't really eyeballed the petcock and tank vent...hmmm good one USN.

A 105 jet would be leaner than mine (higher # = bigger hole = more flow...right?) - interesting. My bike seems to want to go richer all the time. Tho choking doesn't do much.


Offline mrbreeze

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Re: 750 Tuning Advice
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2007, 10:30:22 PM »
Even though you set your floats to spec.......try this. Put it on the centerstand and open your petcock for a couple of minutes. Turn it back off and drain #1 carb into a small container (I used a baby food jar). Mark the level on the side of the jar and dump the gas out. Go on to each carb and see if you are getting the same amount of fuel in each float bowl. If not.....bend the tang on the float of any carb that is off till they all read the same. This is easy to do and made a big difference on my bike. #3 was a bunch lower than the rest and the rest were almost identical to each other.
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Offline jmckinne

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Re: 750 Tuning Advice
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2007, 10:37:15 PM »
Thx Breeze. That should tell me if I have a blockage in the fuel inlet (from the T connector to bowl) I suppose. Sneaky, I like it.

Did you ever find out why your #3 was not filling? All my float needls/jets are brand new, so I'm ruling out sticking...

Offline mrbreeze

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Re: 750 Tuning Advice
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2007, 11:16:51 PM »
I always kinda thought that maybe that float didn't have same buoyancy as the others but who knows? Next time I go in for an overhaul,I will for sure check the float height on that one compared to the others. Hope it makes your's run better.....I know for sure it did mine! By the way........I was impressed by the the way you have attacked your tuning chores so far. You seem to be very thorough in your journey.........you WILL succeed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: 750 Tuning Advice
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2007, 12:22:00 AM »
As mentioned in another thread...
The problem with measuring the drainage from each float bowl is that it doesn't account for the fuel in the feed lines between carb and petcock.  The first carb drained will appear to have a higher fuel level than the rest even if the floats are actually adjusted perfectly equal across the bank.   FYI.

A couple other points...
- I don't know what the stock needle clip position is supposed to be for your bike.  But, don't assume the middle position is the stock setting from the factory.  For example, the stock K7 had the clip in the first notch (Honda shop Manual).
- If you read previous threads on the topic, you will find mixed results with aftermarket carburetor parts.  These are often cheaper, partly because they aren't manufactured to the same tight tolerances as Honda, and neither are they inspected as closely.  A few people have fixed their misbehaving carbs by reinstalling the cleaned original Honda parts, needles, jets, etc.

The grooves in the carb couplers are molded in for the width of the clamp.  I expect you'll find that your original clamps have been over tightened and distorted where the screw passage is.  A bit of metal rework and an added washer under the screw head should make them function again, (if they have been too badly mangled).


If you are indeed running very rich, beware that the center electrode insulator doesn't become carbon soot fouled.  This can make spark erratic, and can lead to very difficult startup.

The air screw is located in the idle or slow circuit of the carb separate form the mains and throttle valve feed.  It has some, but very limited, effect on throttle positions above 1/8 to 1/4 settings.  If your idle screws are hollow tipped and cross drilled, this is done to limit their adjustment range.  Turning them in does richen up the idle mix.  But, don't rely on these to make mixture/tuning adjustment above 1/4 throttle position.  I would expect turning these in would exacerbate a plug-fouling-during-idle issue.

Lastly, your carbs do not have accelerator pumps.  When you snap the throttle open, vacuum in the carb throats is lost and so does the fuel draw through your metering jets.  Venturis don't provide much pressure drop until the air velocity increases.  Still, you should be able to make 1/2 total throttle travel changes with reliable pick up.  These carbs seem to rely on an over-rich idle mixture to help low end pickup behavior.

The jet numbers are hole diameters.  A #100 jet is 1.00mm, A #110 is 1.10 mm.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline mrbreeze

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Re: 750 Tuning Advice
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2007, 12:32:59 AM »
Never thought about the extra fuel in the line there Lloyd but the funny thing is  #'s 1,2, & 4 were spot on with each other and when I got # 3 equal to those....I was good to go. Before doing this check....I took Cben's advice and ditched my in-line fuel filter. That also made an improvement.
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Offline jmckinne

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Re: 750 Tuning Advice
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2007, 04:05:24 AM »
As mentioned in another thread...
The problem with measuring the drainage from each float bowl is that it doesn't account for the fuel in the feed lines between carb and petcock.  The first carb drained will appear to have a higher fuel level than the rest even if the floats are actually adjusted perfectly equal across the bank.   FYI.

I see your point, but if you disconnected the petcock ends of the fuel lines first and placed them below the level of the float bowl drains (they'd empty out then) they would not be able to refill the float(s) when you opened the drains. The float valves themselves are one way, so the floats wouldn't siphon when you pulled the lines off the petcock. Might be worth a try. Those fuel runs from where the "T" fitting comes in to the bowl are small and I basically just blew air in there and hoped the were clean. The T's themselves could be bad too I suppose.

Quote
- I don't know what the stock needle clip position is supposed to be for your bike.  But, don't assume the middle position is the stock setting from the factory. 

Yikes. All I have is a Clymer and it covers all the SOHC years so it is pretty generic. All the sources I have seen in it and online have talked about #110 mains and middle clip. The 110's I'm sure of for '74, but the clip position... never really seen a year attached to that. Anyone have a shop manual that calls out exactly what it should be?


Quote
If you read previous threads on the topic, you will find mixed results with aftermarket carburetor parts. 

Again yikes. My kits were the KR's which are suppsoed to be the better of the two makers I believe. Unfortunately I have no idea if the stuff that was in them before was genuine Honda or not. I saved the stuff, but who knows?

Quote
The grooves in the carb couplers are molded in for the width of the clamp. 

Ah.. good, they sure looked intentional. My clamps however, I don't know. Most of them the screws have to be run in until the two top plates actually touch so a washer won't buy me any more tightness I'm afraid. Anything I can do to reform them into clamping earlier? I thought about putting some extra thickness under  (extra rubber etc) them. The little boogers go for $8 each new.   P.S., the screw heads all look like the APO let his dog gnaw on them so you are no doubt right about the overtightening part.

Quote
The air screw is located in the idle or slow circuit of the carb separate form the mains and throttle valve feed. 

I have only been maikng adjustments to the screws at idle, and only expecting results there.

Quote
Lastly, your carbs do not have accelerator pumps. 

Gotcha. As I said the delay is not bad, hardly noticable. I have no experience with SOHC's tho so I have trouble knowing what's normal. I have restored a number of cars from the period including a couple '73 MG's with multiple carbs. I'm familiar with how those carbs react, but of course MC' carbs are much simpler. More like lawn mowers really :) I do think the delay could be improved tho, and would be considered non-perfect on an early 70's car - even a British one lol.

Thx for the ideas 2T.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 750 Tuning Advice
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2007, 11:07:20 AM »

Quote
- I don't know what the stock needle clip position is supposed to be for your bike.  But, don't assume the middle position is the stock setting from the factory. 

Yikes. All I have is a Clymer and it covers all the SOHC years so it is pretty generic. All the sources I have seen in it and online have talked about #110 mains and middle clip. The 110's I'm sure of for '74, but the clip position... never really seen a year attached to that. Anyone have a shop manual that calls out exactly what it should be?

Best info source I have is:
http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/specs.html
Looks like JN notch 3 or 4 is correct, depending on what carb stamping you have.
I can't vouch for the chart accuracy, though.  I'm fairly certain that the Cb500, 550 data is inaccurate.  But, I've no conflicting data for the rest of the chart.

cheers,
Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline jmckinne

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Re: 750 Tuning Advice
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2007, 01:41:45 PM »
LOL thx 2T I'm wrong on 2 counts.

My castings are 657B's. So I need 105 jets and needles in 4 :)

Jets are on order.

Offline jmckinne

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Re: 750 Tuning Advice
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2007, 08:05:50 PM »
I put the needles back on 4 and put her back together with the #110 jets, enhanced clamping and after blowing all gas supply tubes out a million times. I also pulled my inline filters off.

She fired up easily and locked in to a 1.1K idle very nicely. I haven't been able to re-sync other than a bench synch becasue I sucked all the fluid out two cylinders of my mamometer, doh. Have to find a replacement fluid and re-synch. It sure started and idled better though. The pipes might have to geo tho, the sound is crappy. I loved the old Honda 4-4 sound and these pipes have lost it.

It has been raining ALL day here (Mpls) so I wasn't able to test drive it and see how she does at higher RPM but I'm sure it will be better. When it starts to rain and get chilly during the day in Minnesota you know winter is coming soon. I consider 9/1 winter here, but then I used to live in Florida. Need to get this bike mechanically sorted before I pull the snowmobiles into the garage and start wrenching on them :)

I'll let you know about the test ride.

Offline jmckinne

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Re: 750 Tuning Advice
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2007, 05:39:12 PM »
Well I got the bike out for a short test ride between downpours and...

She runs like a catholic girl on prom night. The combination of things done seems to have really settled her down. I think I will still put the #105 jets in her when they come, but not from need just to be "all stock". The engine feels pretty close to all sorted out mechanically now. It idles all day @ 1050 rpm, starts moving without hesitation @ 1500, and pulls strongly and consistently all the way up the throtlle curve until it hits my chicken line. If crusing @ 3500 and given a throttle snap there is a barely perceptible "throat clear". I think the #105 would completely eliminate that. I'll think about it. Running a 33 year old engine a smidge rich doesn't bother me a bit tho either.

I used some Marvel Mystery Oil for replacement fluid in my Synch Pro. The red "upper cylinder" kind. It worked great.

Thx for the tips boys.

Now a non-engine question:

I've heard this on one other 750 SOHC and my own: when at idle the gearbox is noiser in neutral than when the clutch is pulled in. Is that normal? It makes a quiet washing machine sort of sound in neutral but goes dead quiet when you pull the clutch in. If it was the other way around I know I should be worried but I'm not sure if what I'm hearing is normal or not in this case. It only happens after driving it a mile or 2 and then stopping on my bike, on the other it was always there.

Opinions?

thx!
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 05:44:44 PM by jmckinne »

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: 750 Tuning Advice
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2007, 07:20:33 PM »
Quote
It makes a quiet washing machine sort of sound in neutral but goes dead quiet when you pull the clutch in.

Pretty much normal. Carb syncing helps some, but mine never really goes away even then.
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